Genesis, Nursery Cryme and their critics
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Topic: Genesis, Nursery Cryme and their critics
Posted By: Philchem8
Subject: Genesis, Nursery Cryme and their critics
Date Posted: November 13 2021 at 15:08
|
On November 11, Rolling Stone magazine posted an interesting article celebrating the 50th anniversary of Genesis' Nursery Cryme, ironically an album that received a mediocre review from Rolling Stones when it was released. The article's author acknowledges this rather negative review, yet attempts to justify or make excuses for it, rather than just admit Rolling Stones was wrong. No serious attempt is made to reassess the album though he recognizes The Musical Box is masterpiece. In fact, Nursery Cryme is of course seen as a milestone in progressive rock, notably ranking #13 on this web site among the top 100 albums and was voted #40 of progrock albums by readers of Prog magazine. The negative reception by "professional critics" of early Genesis was not limited to Rolling Stone or Nursery Cryme. Tresspass was of course even more dismissed by music critics both at the time and retrospectively. Only by the time of Foxtrot did critics start become more favourable to Genesis, but even then, Rolling Stone rated Selling England By the Pound 2/5 stars. So question is, why were early Genesis albums now considered classics relatively under-appreciated by critics? This was not necessarily a lack of appreciation for prog-rock itself as early prog albums by ELP, King Crimson and Yes were generally well received by critics. But when it came to Genesis, it seems the critical establishment had a blind spot. Such blind spots are of course not limited to Nursery Cryme or Genesis, but I thought this would be a good way to frame this discussion. |
Replies:
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: November 13 2021 at 16:02
| I don't care what Rolling Stone Magazine says. Rolling Stone Mag is the Woody Hayes of rock critics. Three cords and a cloud of dust. Love punk/Hate prog. Nursery Crime is my favorite Genesis album. It was a masterpiece then and it's a masterpiece now. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 02:13
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Rolling Stones sucks. I don’t really like Nursery much though apart from Hogweed ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 02:24
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I think it’s because RS is very much a US magazine, and Genesis are very much an English band. Yes, the other bands you mention that RS did appreciate are also English - but they don’t sound so English. Genesis epitomises Englishness. They are subtle, polite and pastoral. ELP, King Crimson and Yes (as mentioned in the OP), on the other hand, regardless of how layered and nuanced their sound might be, are rather more direct and in your face. I don’t think it’s quite the case now, but certainly in the past a lot of English media simply went over the heads of US audiences. Many people over the years have commented about how UK comedy would be subtle and ironic, while US comedy was more slapstick and simple. That’s not a criticism of either, by the way. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. But I do think this could be a rather big reason why Genesis were not appreciated at the time by RS, when other prog bands from the UK were… ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 03:23
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Interesting answer and analysis, Nick. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 05:04
I think this is absolutely right. At the time, the biggest music media fan of the band in the UK was Chris Welch of Melody Maker. John Peel was also very supportive on Radio 1 at the BBC, and the first Archives box set has the session they did for him, from memory between Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, but apart from those two there was not a great deal of media noise for Genesis in their home country in the early period. They broke in Belgium and then Italy, and it was not until Foxtrot that they started playing bigger venues such as The Rainbow and etc. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
nick_h_nz wrote:Posted By: Progressive Enjoyer
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 07:16
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I would say I've lost some respect for the magazine, but alas, I never really had any to begin with. ------------- "You know what you are, you don't give a damn" Peter Gabriel |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 08:25
Hi, RS NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE worth any more than some of the stuff that goes down the toilet. One of the best examples, also at that time, was someone calling the stuff in Tangerine Dream, "washing machine music" ... and it does not take you, I or any idiot to realize that the person that wrote that is not a music listener and that the magazine does not cater to folks that actually listen to the music ... even someone like Gonzo would not have said that! It all came real when their covers were about the "stars" and that is when you knew that the magazine didn't care about what was in it, except that it sold because of the pictures and the supposedly interesting articles about the "star". In the end, these articles were not very good, and sometimes bordered on the area of 16 Magazine and other fan stuff with the person writing gushing over nothing ... except the fame! Oh, one story ... the writer got paid by having one of the groupies do him a couple of times! And he wrote a nice piece so he could get another groupie and he got it ... famous story that you can buy on Amazon in a kindle version! I suppose that many folks think it is just a story, but RS was one of the first folks to "deny" the movement against the war and what was happening on the late 60's and take up the side of the ROTC and the ________'s! Reading anything on RS, these days, is not even close to the quality of what you can get here on PA, which is far more centered and well thought out. Suggestion: Do yourself a favor ... use RS in paper cut outs for the bathroom ... it might have better use than so many of their words, which were not about the ART in the MUSIC at all! Make sure you see and understand that first ... since without the art there is nothing worth fighting for other than another war for the richest folks in the country!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 09:22
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Rolling Stone is unadulterated fetid afterbirth. Not only are they very nearsighted and provincial in their reviews (for instance, their tendency to rate bands/performers from the NY area higher), they have an annoying habit of revisionism when their original reviews so missed the mark that it becomes an embarrassment later on. One of the best instances of this covering of failures and missteps is in regards to Neil Young's After the Gold Rush, which the original RS review horribly panned and the reviewer summed up as "none of the songs here rise above the uniformly dull surface." Some years later, The Rolling Stones Album Guide changed their rating to 5 stars, and in 2003 RS ranked After the Gold Rush as the 71st greatest album of all time (the RS 500 Greatest Albums List).  ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 10:12
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Rolling Stone sucks, that's why. They gave Led Zeppelin IV a one paragraph review, constantly panned both Queen and Rush, and to this day can't figure out how to gracefully walk back a bad take from years ago. As for why Genesis was a blind spot for critics who did like ELP, KC, and even Yes... probably the theatricality. None of the other big prog bands were as narratively minded and theatrically disposed as Genesis (really Gabriel, but the band played along with him). It's one thing to be stunned by the musicianship of a Tarkus, 21st Century Schizoid Man, or Roundabout. It's another to fall in love with a man doing funny voices about killer plant wars for nearly 10 minutes. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 10:58
| Thanks to all who have responded to my post! Very interesting responses. While I agree we should not be too concerned about reviews by RS (though you have to at least hand it to them that they put out an article on the 50th anniversary of NS), a couple of points on this. Firstly, I used RS as an example mainly because of the article mentioned, but mediocre reviews of early Genesis are not limited to RS. For ex, Village Voice/Robert Christgau wrote an even more dismal and particularly sarcastic review of NS at the time (see wikipedia). The retrospective review by All Music is more positive, 3.5/5 stars, but when you consider they give 4 stars to Brtiney Spears' first albums, this does not mean that much. Secondly, whatever we think of them, these music critics do have some influence in guiding people towards certain albums and bands. One wonders how much they have contributed to innovative, worthy music being ignored because of their obtuseness, or to the time it took for Genesis to break out as a major act. The point about Genesis being too British for American critics is a good one. Thanks for that information on British reviews of NS. I had not noticed it before but Trespass (largely ignored outside of Belgium at the time of its release) did also receive a few positive reviews from the British press. Further supporting that theory, Selling England by the Pound received a negative review from RS apparently because it had too many British pop culture references (which ranks as one of the stupidest arguments I've heard for putting down a piece of music). As a Canadian who started to listen to rock music in the late 70s, I had never thought much about the Britishness of Genesis. SEBTP had gone platinum in Canada by that time, and several of its tracks, along with The Musical Box, were getting heavy AOR play and seemed to define the varied classic rock landscape of the time. The point made on Genesis being too theatrical for some listeners is another really good one. It seems some people get stuck on the theatrics and fail to see the brilliant music and talented musicianship behind it. Still, I think there is a little bit more than that but will come back on this point after seeing a few more posts. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 11:15
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^ Christgau is a grade-A t-w-a-t. Always has been. See his negative reviews of Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull and a host of talented bands. He prefers 3 chord bands like the New York Dolls. Anything that requires thought and concentration with a composition over 3 minutes is out of his purview. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 13:12
I honestly think the Englishness (rather than Britishness) must have at least been a factor (if not the factor) in American audiences not getting them. Speaking as a Kiwi, Genesis definitely sounded English, and undeniably so. I wouldn’t fail to recognise them as being English, where (if I did not know) I might find it harder to guess King Crimson, ELP or Yes were English. Split Enz initially started off sounding similar to Genesis, but with all Englishness removed and replaced with a quirky Kiwi character. The original Mental Notes is both sonically and structurally similar to Genesis. And Split Enz didn’t shirk know the theatrics either. But I know a lot of people who love early Split Enz, but aren’t fans of early Genesis. Whenever I’ve asked anyone with this opinion why, they often can’t explain it except to say something along the lines that they simply can’t relate to the Englishness of Genesis. I realise this doesn’t explain any reticence within their own country, but it certainly seems a valid reason for foreign audiences to not be immediately endeared. 🤷🏻♂️ ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 14:09
| To Nick, I know exactly what you mean. I for one love the early Split Enz material (and their later period also as a matter of fact). They were clearly influenced by Genesis but had their own, very unique style. As you may know, outside of NZ and Australia, Split Enz were most popular in Canada though this started with True Colours. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 15:15
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The original Rolling Stone review of Nursery Cryme from October 26, 1972 is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20080430233653/www.rollingstone.com/artists/genesis/albums/album/304752/review/5940391/nursery_cryme" rel="nofollow - https://web.archive.org/web/20080430233653/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/genesis/albums/album/304752/review/5940391/nursery_cryme I feel the relevant paragraph in the review is here (I added the bold font to the pertinent sentence): "Nursery Cryme's main problem lies not in Genesis' concepts, which are, if nothing else, outrageously imaginative and lovably eccentric, nor with their musical structures--long, involved, multi-movemented frameworks on which they hang their narratives--nor even with their playing, which does get pretty lethargic at points. It's the godawful production, a murky, distant stew that at best bubbles quietly when what is desperately needed are the explosions of drums and guitars, the screaming of the organ, the abrasive rasp of vocal cords." The review doesn't really seem as bad as some of the claims posted here. I'm no fan of Rolling Stone, but I could see such a review being posted on PA. Go check out some of the reviews on PA. Many of them mention the muddy or poor production of Nursery Cryme. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 15:50
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I have no love of Rolling Stone however out of all the classic HUUUUUUGELY popular albums of early prog history, i have to admit that i find Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot rather underwhelming. I explained it all in my reviews. I just find those two albums to be half baked. They had a few excellent tracks and a lot of filler. I don't think Genesis really came of age until Selling England By The Pound. I do really love Trespass though. I wish that lineup would've prevailed actually! -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 16:16
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Thanks Progaardvark for directing us to the actual review from RS and putting things in more perspective. I agree the review itself was not that negative but taken with the 2/5 stars ratings from the Rolling Stone Album Guide (though not clear if this is related to Cromelin's review), I find it on the mediocre side. However, my original point was not that the review was bad, but that it greatly undervalues an album that, while maybe not considered a masterpiece, is usually highly regarded by prog fans and rock audiences generally - otherwise, why is RS still talking about it 50 years later? And that the rather underwhelming critical response to early Genesis (maybe more symptomatic of American critics) goes beyond NS. I think that it's only by The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway that major US critics started recognizing the group's talent, which in hindsight should have been obvious from Trespass. I do agree the production on both Trespass and NS is not great (I particularly find the vocals on The Fountain of Salmacis annoyingly buried beneath the music, something partly rectified by the remastered version), but overall, this did not prevent me from appreciating the quality of the music itself. One question:I'm new to Progarchives and this was my first attempt to launch a discussion forum, but my intention had been to post this on the Genesis page. Does anyone know if there's a way to link the discussion so that it appears under the Genesis page? |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 14 2021 at 21:11
I love Nursery Cryme to death, but that production is the leading factor in why it took me so long to get into it, to even enjoy much at all to be honest. It's the definition of murky/muddy. On the bright side, it does render the guitar/organ freakouts even more distorted, a quality I don't associate with much else in the early Genesis catalogue. Oh someone mentioned Christgau. He did NOT get prog, and had no business reviewing it. Frankly it should've been obvious he wasn't the right reviewer for the genre given how comically short his reviews usually were! The Englishness of the band is very noticeable to me as a midwestern American. But... and this may be my inner anglophile coming out... I absolutely love it. Music is meant to sweep you away somewhere else, especially prog, and the very English sensibility of most of the band's writing (barring Collins, who turned out to be a grade A, Billboard chart dominator) helps Genesis to accomplish that goal for me. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 00:58
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Early Genesis is generally overrated (I say this as someone who puts them in my top five bands). A comment by Silly Puppy above suggests they 'came of age' with SEBTP yet this is the album that contains Battle Of Epping Forest (too much larking about , if ELP did this they would have been panned beyond reason) , More Fool Me and I Know What I Like (yawn) . Fantastic other tracks admittedly but is it really enough? Possibly the only real masterpiece in the Gabriel era could have been Lamb if has been about 10 minutes shorter. They were the band of the 'filler' material but somehow they get away with a lot more than other bands (ie ELP) who had less filler and more technically innovative. It is correctly pointed out that the production of NC was Muddy . Yes it really was although it was fixed in 2007 thankfully. For me their best albums are the four that followed Gabriel's departure. The split did neither of them any harm in my book and both took progressive rock onwards in their own ways. Genesis streamlined it and became a bit commercial (a terrible sin) but they had developed as a much more powerful band especially holding their own live with the best around. That's just in my opinion of course!
|
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 01:27
I honestly believe there is no such thing as filler. There are only tracks on an album we like, and tracks we don’t. For something to truly be filler, a majority of listeners would surely need to agree on what that filler is, and I’m yet to see any such majority for any track called filler by some. A prime example would be “Battle of Epping Forest”, which is a song that seems to have just as many fans as it has detractors. It’s one of my my favourite songs on an album that is very inconsistent for me. I prefer all three albums which came before it, as there is barely a track on those I don’t like. But for all the good on “Selling England…”, there is just as much that I don’t really like much. I could call it filler, if I were so inclined, but I know it is not. And there’s not a track on “Lamb” I don’t like, or would wish to be removed. My least favourite track on that album is “Back in NYC”, which I know a lot of people like. I think it’s pointless to argue over whether, eg, ELP or Genesis had more filler. All anyone would be arguing is actually their preference for one band or the other. I don’t own a single ELP album, because there’s not one that has enough material I like. The good stuff is really good. But, for me, the majority of every ELP album just doesn’t do anything for me. I could call it filler, but I know it’s not. But, on a personal level, I guess ELP albums are more filler than content. Genesis ar the opposite. For Richard, the opposite is true. Ultimately neither band has filler. Just music that some of us like and some of us don’t. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 05:02
Well that's what filler is! LOL ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 05:12
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I'd be more interested to know what other music publications thought of early Genesis albums at their time of release. I don't really think the perspective of RS counts for much, then or now, in the world outside mainstream rock. As for my own personal opinion; the early Genesis albums are imperfect. They were young, still finding their sound, developing as song writers and notoriously working with producers who either didn't have the means, skills or any idea what to do with the bands sound, until Hentschel came along. In any case I regard all the PG era albums as unique classics, including Trespass. As a band, I always felt they were leagues ahead of Yes and ELP as songwriters, but all of these bands had their own vision, and objectives, all equally valid. It just so happens the Genesis vision resonated with me more than the others. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 09:13
Hi, I dropped out of RS some 50 years ago, when the covers were about seeing if they could get John and Yoko nude, or Grace nude, or someone else looking very "sexy" as a way to sell more copies. When you looked inside the magazine? The same crap writers, wrote about nothing whatsoever, and many of them were so out of it as to not have any idea what the whole thing was about! It was right then that I came across Melody Maker and it was on my hands for the next 10 years, with at least one or two trips to downtown LA to one particular news/magazine shop (still the best I ever saw in a hole on the wall!!!), that carried it along with the "New Musical Express" (I may have the name incorrect) and one or two others. MM was rather fond of Genesis right from the start and they were not happy when PG left, and had a full out middle page interview with him, even saying some things that seemed strange ... how the record company did not like long stuff, and how even the fans did not seem to like the concept pieces, which he believed was record company word'age, not from an artist. (... paraphrased ...) So in some ways, you can see my surprise when his first album was all songs, though I even I had to admit they were really fine! Something got lost in the translation, and I think that the words that MM used may not have been the right ones that PG had intended, even then, but it was a very open and honest bunch of words in my book. By 1980, there was not a whole lot of these to read. I was able to get MM occasionally all the way to 1990, but then it went off the cliff somewhere and I could no longer afford it. However, relief was in sight as the Internet replaced the majority of many of these rags and their very stupid comments, though you and I will admit that half the stuff we read is not exactly the stuff that we wish to relate to "progressive" anything whatsoever. Critics, for the most part ... in those days ... were very vindictive because of various reasons, and many books by groupies bring this out quite a bit, including one (on kindle!) that has a journalist getting to bonk two groupies for saying nice things, and then asking for more to say anything else .... are you surprised? I'm not, and I don't think that story is just a story ... given the kissing on rags like RS, I would suggest that there was a lot more of this than we thought, but that some artists probably gave it a finger and told them to get lost ... Neil Young being one and very famous for that, and his vindication came later when he is still playing and around ... and those folks that wrote all the crap are non-existent ... but that RS guy got many millions for it! Did he care about the music? I doubt it, when he became the rich man ... that one film about the story of the Woodstock producers said the same thing ... the guy was now looking at the gold in the sky ... only to produce one of the darkest moments in rock history! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 09:20
Really? In that case, I’ve completely misunderstood what people mean when they say filler. To me, the term implies unimportant and unnecessary material added to bulk up or flesh out an album - which is something very different from simply “music I don’t like”. 🤷🏻♂️ ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 10:04
And all of that is of course subjective! So the music we don't like is filler! Sometimes we all agree though :) ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 12:14
 ------------- |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 14:14
|
This
continues to be a quite a fascinating discussion and has been very helpful for
me to reflect on the question I posed at the start, so thanks very much to all
who have contributed. The thoughts expressed on various music critics and publications
are certainly interesting (and educative for me), and I also appreciate the
differing views of Genesis’ music. Without getting into a debate on the quality
of the music itself, it is evident from the premise of my question that I think
highly of early Genesis prog albums, and I believe my taste is supported by the
enduring influence of this music (as an inspiration to other bands and countless
Genesis tribute bands), the fact that most of these albums (including NS)
continue to be on average highly rated by prog fans themselves (on this site
and others), and the general recognition these albums receive in rock-related
references (for instance, as recommended prog-rock recordings in the All Music
Guide, among others). Of course, I may still be wrong in my esteem of early
Genesis music, but ignoring that possibility for the moment, the question of
why their albums received, relatively-speaking, less than an enthusiastic
reception by much of the critical establishment at the time (apparently more so
in the US than in the UK) is worth asking, though I do recognize, as others
have pointed out, that Genesis did also receive positive reviews in its early
days (just not on the level of Yes, ELP, Crimson and Tull among others). On
this question, I noted that the key reasons given so far, in no particular
order, are: 1. Early Genesis
was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and
Italians did not seem to care). 2. Genesis
was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows
and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself) 3. Many
critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J 4. Early albums
were too poorly produced (I think this is particularly relevant for Trespass
and Nursery Cryme, though it did not bother me that much) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 15:59
1. Weird ... even here on PA folks say the same thing about just about all the other nationalities and their music! It gets old reading that Italian bands don't sound like English ones, and neither do French or German bands! IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC .... not the nationality! It has been so for a long time! Why do we not stop allowing folks to say silly things that it was "too english"? So what? So was theater, film, literature ... and no one complained. But rock folks complain about anything, right? 2. That's a bunch of bull, since at the time, not many bands were doing something that could be considered "theatrical" at all, although one can point to OSANNA, ANGE, and then (eventually) to PF who did this theatricality with sound effects going all around the arena/venue in their "quadraphonic" sound system! A reminder that sound, voice, singing, music and everything else came from the same "source" many years ago, when in the days of the Greek Theater they were together, and not apart. So seeing some bands take it seriously and directly is fine with me, except that you are telling me that fans want more Chuck Berry than they want intelligent music and presentations? 3. Critics are not (usually) stupid. But some of them have a knack for saying things that are really nasty and out of touch. I have been accused of that, however, never on a review! AND, that is the main reason why I do not do Top 5/10 because of the sacred cow and bullpucky aspect of it that makes too many fans defensive! There have been times when something really bad was said ... like an idiot saying Tangerine Dream sounded like "washing machine music" ... but the worst part of it? No one EVER said anything to shut that idiot up and get rid of him and his attitude towards music. He obviously needed to go back to washing dishes at McD's to learn what music was all about! PA, at least, will hammer folks that DO SAY bad things and specially when they are out of line. But the problem is not the "critic" ... it's the "opinion" that everyone believes is supposed to be "subjective" and NEVER objective, specially when it comes to the arts! That's a fan for you! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 16:03
Hi, So said the man that selected two Italian bands to inaugurate his label Manticore! How soon we forget how he appreciated a lot of music, that we don't! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 19:32
Foxtrot though!  ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 19:34
I don't think RS's opinion counts much even IN the world of mainstream rock. They called Queen fascists and gave Led Zeppelin IV a single paragraph review, which was pretty middling. Those takes aged terribly, and the stink was pretty noticeable from the start. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 19:35
That's a trustworthy reviewer right there!  ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 19:41
This is a great post! I totally agree with the last part too. Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture! ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 15 2021 at 20:57
Hi, I'm not sure that all bands got a good recording of a lot of their music at the start. Studio time was expensive and a band on their first or second album that did not sell a whole lot, would likely not get a whole lot of attention at all. Compare some of those recordings to a lot of the Canterbury stuff that was not recorded well, either, however, the quality of the music gave us a thrill and we still love it today. All in all, it is all just about a measure of what the time had to offer, and remember that DSOTM was, at the time, considered the pinnacle of rock music recording. Up until then, I suppose that the best there was came from George Martin, and Muscle Shoals, but it was another man Tom Dowd, that helped make famous one of the most played songs ever ... Layla ... when he heard something that had to be done! (It's on his special). A lot of the European music suffers from the lack of decent recording materials as well, but somehow, the music itself came alive, and to me, that is the most important factor of all. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 09:37
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Just to clarify, I don't think I or anyone in this discussion was saying that they found early Genesis was too English or too theatrical, but rather that they may have been perceived as such by some critics and audiences, particularly in the US. Without going further on these points, I think there's some evidence of that, but of course, these are just opinions. In terms of critics being too stupid, I was synthesizing in jest many of the opinions shared on some of the critics, particularly from RS, on Genesis and other music. But I do not believe critics are stupid in general and I'm sorry if I caused any offence. |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 09:40
| My previous post was in response to Moshkito, but didn't show up as such. |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 09:49
| Thanks Sacro Porgo. Agree, Visions of Angels is a relatively little know gem from early Genesis, and Trespass is quite a pasture indeed, even if not quite on the level of their subsequent work. Each track on the album is clearly distinctive from the others and has something to offer. My favourite is Stagnation, which I think also points the most to their future direction. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 10:39
And parts of Stagnation are still played at Genesis live gigs to this day. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 10:55
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When an expert on English progressive rock talks, one needs to listen. Fortunately, RS is not in that category. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 17:11
Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 16 2021 at 23:10
Hi, I don't consider it "bad" ... it did not have the touch or the equipment, but WE STILL LISTEN TO IT, and that means that there was a FEELING and TOUCH by the musicians that was special and it is still loved today. We have to separate the two, otherwise we will never know when an artist and special player/person/band comes around, expecting it to sound perfect. Heck, go to Harlem and listen to the kids playing on cans, buckets and every thing else, and making a lot of rap sound like really poor stuff in the end. I have been to a lot of "live" concerts and events, and it is (in some ways) like a play when we used to say that there is a $50 dollar seat, and there is a $5 dollar seat, and the difference is horrendous ... in the $5 dollar seat you can not hear half of what is being said on the stage, compared to the first row of seats! So we're saying something is bad because of where we sit? NOT ME .. I WANT TO HEAR IT with my ear to the ground (as Jim would say!), to ensure that it got to my ears ... not a silly reviewer or comment by so many folks that are totally out of time and context with the music altogether. Not very progressive of them, btw ... and that is what you might have stated. Half the stuff that is the "top ten" of the progressive material was not exactly well recorded, compared to the mid 70's and later ... but its feeling is special and important. Heck, Peter Hammill and VdGG were almost all "home recorded" (so to speak) in those early albums and none of us are complaining about it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Leggo My Proggo
Date Posted: November 17 2021 at 01:14
Here is a bizarre take on The Lamb if anybody is curious. A "cover" album but it does not seem to follow any regard for the actual music on the album? I am not sure why people would bother making this but here it is: https://marmaladeduplex.bandcamp.com/album/special-lamb-cuts-over-75-off" rel="nofollow - http://marmaladeduplex.bandcamp.com/album/special-lamb-cuts-over-75-off |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: November 17 2021 at 14:34
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Tull aren’t even in the HOF. Their album remix book set is the best collection in history ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:44
Yo, When I say something is bad, and then I follow that up with "but I still listen to it," don't you think I already understand the point you just overexplained? ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:47
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I was planning to avoid debating the quality of Genesis' music but seeing that comment get reposted, I thought I'll give my two-cents as Selling England By the Pound is one of my favourite albums. So far, I have not found an album by any artist that I consider perfect, so I won't try to defend every song, but point out that SEBTP is usually voted or considered among the top 5 Prog-Rock albums of all time. Firth of Fifth, Cinema Show and Dancing with the Moonlight Knight are among the great classics of that era and have been voted among the top 10 Genesis songs by 40,000 readers of Prog Magazine (check it out). Only Foxtrot comes close to that level of recognition. I'm not sure if early Genesis were as technically innovative as ELP - maybe not, but technical innovation is not the most important element that makes good music that endures through the years, in my view. Overall creativity and ability in musical construction, rhythm and melodies, as well as passionate execution, are all as important - and there I think the young Genesis was plentiful. Their complex arrangements and lyrics did not always quite work, but there was something undeniably new, adventurous, touching and beautiful, yet imperfect, in what they were doing. This is maybe why their music has held up better than ELP's in the long-run, even though at the time ELP was bigger. It's clear from Trespass that these were damn good musicians but still evolving and maturing. However, I feel that by SEBTP, their musicianship was astounding and as good as anything else at the time for what they were doing. |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:50
Hhmm..this was in response to the post by Richard but I still have not figured out how to include the post I am responding to. Now you understand why I don't value as much technical ability 
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Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:51
Oh don't get me started on the rock hall. What kind of institution claiming to be home to only the greatest rock artists of all time has an annual induction model that's so limited they're still inducting acts from the 60's and 70's? Like, you've been around how long and you're just now deciding they're great? Just because you only want to induct a handful of artists a year at some big expensive ceremony with as many rock stars as you can get to come because your museum doesn't make enough profit on its own?? And then of course they're the constant snubbing. They didn't even nominate Yes until after Chris Squire passed away, and then they still went through a round where Yes were nominated but not chosen before they got inducted in the next round. Meanwhile all the members of Genesis are still alive and they've been in for ages. I'd love to just hand wave that as playing favorites to the band with more pop hits, but it's not like 90125 and Big Generator weren't huge sellers in their own right! I still hear Owner Of A Lonely Heart on the radio all the time, not to mention Yes' prog stuff had more hits than Genesis' prog! That's just the tip of the iceberg. The Rock Hall, Rolling Stone, and Pitchfork. Three very famous hacks. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: November 18 2021 at 09:37
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So I just read this article. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/music/news/that-night-in-small-city-ontario-that-phil-collins-became-a-frontman/ar-AAQRdJi?li=AAggNb9" rel="nofollow - https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/music/news/that-night-in-small-city-ontario-that-phil-collins-became-a-frontman/ar-AAQRdJi?li=AAggNb9 It states "Fisk, then a second-year computer science student at the University of
Western Ontario, took the only known photographs of the show on his
father’s Praktica camera." Some of you may
know that I have posted pictures from that concert myself here on PA as
I was also in attendance and shot from the second row centre stage on my Nikon FM. I just wanted to correct history. Carry on. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 18 2021 at 23:54
Thank you , very interesting comments. Actually its a little known fact that Keith Emerson was a big fan of Genesis and supported them in the early days with many a kind word. It wasn't generally reciprocated but hey ho! I think I was just commenting really on Genesis not being seen as one of the leading lights of the time. Just like Gentle Giant they were less inclined to use Bombast in the same way ELP did who were able to live with the likes of Zep and Purple by being that way. Context is very important. ELP were a festival band and great entertainers but that tends to get lost over time. That all said I believe that Brain Salad Surgery is every bit as important and good as Selling England By The Pound. Perfect albums? - neither of those IMO, I would go for Per Un Amico from that period.
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Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 19 2021 at 15:49
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I think you have a point- at least between 1970-72, like Gentle Giant, Genesis was more of a cult act (though I understand that 's not exactly what your are saying) but while I was too young to know at the time, I perceive that by 1973-74, they entered the major leagues of Prog-rock, at least in the UK, some of Europe and some other countries. Probably, this was not so in the US, but to a larger extent in Canada, where SEBTP eventually went platinum. For instance, Bruce Eder writes in All Music Guide:"their music blossomed with Nursery Cryme; their two subsequent albums, Foxtrot and SEBTP, would carry them in the realms of lyrical sophistication that would find them compared to TS Eliot and Ezra Pound, and ELP sound juvenile by comparison". Albeit this is probably an exaggeration and lyrics are not everything. I wasn't aware that Keith Emerson was a fan of the Genesis until I saw someone posted the review here (thanks for that). Maybe it was not reciprocal but Tony Banks did recognize the influence of The Nice on their music. Per un Amico is an album I am still discovering. |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: November 19 2021 at 16:10
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I wasn't aware that Keith Emerson was a fan of the Genesis until I saw someone posted the review here (thanks for that). Maybe it was not reciprocal but Tony Banks did recognize the influence of The Nice on their music. Per un Amico is an album I am still discovering. [/QUOTE] You're welcome Genesis manager and Charisma label boss, Tony Stratton-Smith had been the manager of The Nice and their last couple of lps were on the Charisma label so no doubt TSS asked Keith to write something to promote the lp.. I remember reading somewhere that the working title for 'the Knife' was 'The Nice'...? ------------- |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 19 2021 at 16:58
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Ha, well let's hope that's not the only reason Emerson was "nice" to Nursery Cryme . Yeah also heard that about The Knife. The Nice would have been a very cynical title though.
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: November 19 2021 at 17:46
They’re dumb lol Of the millions of bands to exist there’s a reason Tull are the only band ever to have this  ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Argentinfonico
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 09:52
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Rolling Stone magazine has completely lost its prestige. I don't know if you've all seen their new top of "the greatest albums of all time", but it couldn't be worse. For starters, I'm going to say that The Dark Side Of The Moon is at number 55! A complete disgrace, because if you look at the albums ranked ahead, you can't believe the choices they've made. Rap, hip hop and other works that, without detracting from them at all, simply cannot be placed so far above Pink Floyd's best and most transcendent work. Close To The Edge ranks 447, far below many, many reggaeton, trap and other almost miserable genres where the music is downplayed to its most deplorable degree. As for the works of Genesis, it is more than clear that the magazine editions that criticised the band so severely were corrupted by national and political interests. The Genesis era with Peter Gabriel is one of the most revolutionary in the history of music. Creativity is brought to its peak and all the albums that have been born from Trespass to TLLDOB are marvellous from beginning to end. The thing to do with these execrable magazines is to never read them again!
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Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 09:56
Actually I thought their latest top 500 albums of all time list was their best one so far. Obviously there's an anti prog and an anti-metal bias, and there were way too many compilations (those just don't count guys), but there was a lot more diversity than usual and the top ten wasn't entirely 60s rock and roll. What's wrong with hip hop? How can you be so certain that Kendrick Lamar or 2Pac or OutKast don't have an album that might compete with DSOTM in terms of pure quality? ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 10:20
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I’m with Jack. I thought the Rollong Stone 500 was pretty diverse and inclusive. Just because your tastes don’t align with Rolling Stones doesn’t mean others agree with you. I like plenty of hip hop albums more than I do DSotM, for example. Ranking albums across very different genres is very difficult to do objectively, as there are often very few points of comparison. No list is going to get it “right”, simply because there realistically is no objective ranking. But while you can’t please all the people all the time, you can attempt to come up with something that pleases as many of your intended audience as possible. And not only did RS do that, they came up with a list that people outside their intended audience (like Jack and I) didn’t think was too bad, either. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Argentinfonico
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 11:16
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It has nothing to do with my tastes or my preferences. Precisely, everything I said there goes from my humble musical judgement and how I think a "best of" list should be put together, taking into account such important factors as creativity, purity, production, concept, message and many other aspects that make up the quality and immortality of a musical work. TDSOTM is probably the only album of the 20th century that has marked a before and after in the history of music. This diversity that Rolling Stone offers is populism at its purest, as the list has been created based on current critics and statistics showing the musical genres that are most listened to today. That's what I want to make clear; that there is no musical criteria here, only popular criteria! How can you place so many albums above TDSOTM (which is part of the pinnacle of general music)? Or even many of The Beatles' albums. Have you seen where Sgt Peppers has been placed now? It is undeniable that musical judgement has deteriorated to rubble because of the catastrophes caused by the internet and the severe punishments of the people through social networks. European traditions may retain some unbreakable pillars within their music, but in other parts of the world, such as the United States or South America, creativity is increasingly limited to computers. Instruments are losing their meaning... in music! It is an absolute sin. And we are not talking about replacing them with nature sounds or purposely created to form a curious melody. Today the same electronic rhythms predominate again and again in the vast majority of created music. That it is allowed to abolish the structure that great genres such as classical music or progressive rock have created is for me something that deserves to be carefully reviewed. Do you want to make your music like this? Fine, make it as you please. Your work is probably good and remarkable. But from there to disrespecting fundamental albums just to avoid hurting people's sensibilities (because in that list there is no musical parameter to decide it)? There is a great distance.
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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 11:45
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^Your response above does nothing to make me think it is anything but your preferences. 😄 ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 12:06
On a site where I'm used to reading some pretty heavily biased and closed minded takes, this was a surprisingly biased and closed minded read. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 21 2021 at 12:07
Yes! This exactly! It's definitely an impossible task to rank across the entire musical spectrum like they did, great point. Even so it wasn't a horrible list, not as bad as they have been in the past. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 22 2021 at 01:28
I don't agree with this at all but if you replace the word Genesis with Rock (and leave out Peter Gabriel and other references to Genesis) instead then it makes sense. There was a lot of fantastic innovation in music from 1969 -1975 and this was down to a wide group of bands and musicians and not just prog. IMO
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Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 22 2021 at 11:54
It's true, there was tons of innovation in that period. However there was also a lot of innovation across other genres in different periods as well. Perhaps the 69-75 era is maybe more important for its advancements in basic production techniques that literally everybody in the world of record music uses, but I wouldn't say prog is any more important of a musical rabbit hole than, say, early hip hop, or be-bop. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: November 22 2021 at 16:10
| I just checked out the list from RS. While there's plenty of great music in there, I do find that prog-rock is rather under-represented, which is not surprising from RS. There are 3 prog-rock albums from Pink Floyd, one from Yes, one from Rush, one from Can...and I think that's about it. Even newer prog-rock bands hardly appear. Out of 500 albums? By comparison, while Rate Your Music does not have a top 500 list, one can see the ranking of each album of a particular artist. Floyd has 5 albums from their prog era among the top 500 rated albums, King Crimson 4, Genesis 3, Can 3, Yes, 2, Rush 1, Tull 1 but Aqualung almost makes it. Most of these albums have 10,000-15,000 ratings or more from people who care enough about music to register and vote. How many people were involved in the RS list? 300 artists, critics, producers and "music industry figures". Hhhmm.. Don't get me wrong, there's no perfect list (and I'm sure there's some bias in Rate Your Music as well), and I like a lot of the music on the RS list, but I'll take the advice of the "interested" music public any time before that of RS. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: November 22 2021 at 16:22
Well said. This is the problem with the RS list. In the internet era where millions of fans can congregate on one site to collectively determine what they value, the opinions of a few hundred music industry veterans are just a tab in the ocean. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |