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The Savage rose is missing on the list
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earlyprog View Drop Down
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Points: 2159 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote earlyprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2021 at 11:31
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ limbo. Don't think anyone thinks they are quite prog enough for inclusion.

Soooooo, don't anyone get their hopes up Wink

Not quite prog enough = PR or proto-prog isn't it Smile

...or crossover prog LOL

Seriously, though, I just want to know if I can add anything to their case to ensure that they are reconsidered, but if they are under consideration again, then I can remain in dormant state for a little longer ...standby modeEmbarrassed
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Points: 15347 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2021 at 11:08
^ limbo. Don't think anyone thinks they are quite prog enough for inclusion.

Soooooo, don't anyone get their hopes up Wink

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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What's the progress on this case?
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

One of those bands that fell between the cracks.

One of the MAJOR problems with adding bands to this site is that those who suggest these bands DO NOT suggest the appropriate albums to explore.
...

Hi,

I was thinking that there are times, when choosing one album for you folks to listen to, that it should be a GIVEN that the band has more than one, and it would require a bit more attention for all the listens, and while there maybe variety in the albums, in the end, the sum of its parts, make the band be far more attractive than the single band that we constantly add and their next album is nothing.

This band was not "lucky", even though many folks will say that each person (and band) make their own luck, and despite the incredible amount of material by Archie Patterson in EUROCK about this band, in the end, no one gave a darn. Well, heck, no one read Richard Pinhas philosophical essays either. AND that makes us all "progressive". Another band that also had a lot of material in that periodical was OSANNA, and look where the preferential level of that band is on PA.

PA started AFTER the days of the far out and great music, and its folks do not all have the musical sense and history that I would prefer they have. If they did, I think that a lot of the genres and sub-genres would likely be very different from a musical perspective, and yet, its descriptions are more on par with geeks than true musicians and their talent!

My take, is that the band could/should be here, but not for one album, but for its collection of many albums, in a category that fits them better. I doubt that many of the folks that "study" these options will care to listen to 2 or 3 or 4 albums by a band ... since almost each and every time, they are voting for the band's first album, and I can not certify that it was listened to in its entirety. It sounded like ... is almost all I read and see listed! 

I'm not the expert in these categories since many of them confuse me silly, but something prog-related makes more sense, but there is a lot of material that they have that does not fit "prog-anything" and this is probably what most folks on PA are addressing the most.


Edited by moshkito - July 09 2021 at 17:54
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The case I would make for the Savage Rose is mostly based on their early albums (including Dødens Triumf).

First of all there is the combination of (psychedelic) rock and elements of classical music. The two main creative forces of the band, Thomas and Anders Koppel, were both from the classical music world, and both have been classical composers at the same time (they were children of the acclaimed composer Hermann D. Koppel). It shows, especially when it comes to the music's harmonic patterns. Already it's characteristic for a lot of early prog that it flirts heavily with classical music (Procol Harum, The Moody Blues et al).

Then there is the obvious jazz influence that came with the acclaimed jazz drummer Alex Riel (jazz rock fusion - which is a subgenre on PA).

They later turned to soul and gospel, as well as different kinds of folk music (including Balkan), so again, it is mostly because of their early work.


Edited by The Anders - July 09 2021 at 17:32
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Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

I like Savage Rose, but never heard about Savage Grace (and hope they have more songs that are good other than the cover just listed)

Here's an interesting one. Imagine breeding the Guess Who with Manfred Mann. You'd end up with something like this highly derivative but fun tune...
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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I like Savage Rose, but never heard about Savage Grace (and hope they have more songs that are good other than the cover just listed)
https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List
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Points: 13238 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2021 at 11:56
I prefer the late 60s/early 70s Detroit band Savage Grace (dig that crazy prog harpsichord, man)....
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 37595 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2021 at 10:55
I said that I'd see how this thread goes. How it develops, how well it answers those questions I raised before. Arguments and counter-arguments. I thought maybe a really solid case would be made or built here to demonstrate the Prog connection with band members, the general scene, similar music included in Prog categories.... For me to present the case to Admin, I'd need more than "these albums are proggy" (the arguments matter). There's lot's of proggy albums not in PA. Anders offered to contribute to the bio as needed, and then earlyprog, and I wouldn't have considered bringing it forward if people had not offered to write the bio (which also tries to explain its Prog relations) and add the albums. Proto-Prog is an interesting idea, earlyprog.

"If bands Santana, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, etc are in, then Savage Rose should be included IMHO."

To be honest, this killed it for me (at least for me to bring it forward). I am now not comfortable bringing this case to Admin. I won't now, but an SC might who knows the band and arguments really well and can make a clear and logical case for it that shows its relations to Prog and the Prog scene well.

A: None of those are in Prog categories other than Santana, and Santana is controversial for its placement (people not knowing the discography well enough, I might think), so to say this case is related to those is akin to calling it "Prog-Related Related" and "Proto-Prog Related".

B: It has not been demonstrated what those bands have in common with Savage Rose, musically, in terms of influence etc. Like I said, it should be compared to the most relevant of bands, preferably those thought of as Prog proper, and specifics help. The music itself is not so much the issue for me as the arguments. "Should" arguments commonly carry the burden of proof. If those are the most relevant acts, it makes for a harder case when the best examples are not considered very Prog or Prog proper (even if I could draw all sorts of similarities to each band, all are bluesy and can be quite ballsy, and Savage Rose can be very blues). Black Sabbath was quite a controversial addition that some people still question, and this could itself be considered a significantly controversial case (not accepted for Psych or Crossover, and had already been passed to Prog Related where it was not accepted).

Unique as pointed out earlier (at least for the local scene) is good in a way, but of course it can make the case harder to prove.

I think at this point it would be best to go the expected route (with the link I provided earlier). So discussion develops more, and then an SC PMs us with the best arguments for it (and hopefully highlights the best counterarguments) if that SC supports it strongly, and then if we approved, adds the band. This would be the second time coming to PR, and the arguments and links to Prog (not just this sounds Prog) shown in people's research should be pretty solid and detail oriented.

So I won't be a torchbearer. My flame died. Better that one much more knowledgeable than I, both in the music and knowing details about the band and band member's history, presents the case to Admin (an SC by PM if one is passionate about it) to argue for it. I hear a Prog relation in certain music (albums), but I wouldn't be comfortable with that being my sole case. I lack the deep knowledge about the band and band members to make a solid case for it myself that I would be comfortable with for PR. And I don't know enough for Proto Prog.

Edited by Logan - July 09 2021 at 17:29
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Points: 15347 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2021 at 08:24
So what's the next step? Any admins able to carry this torch? Logan?

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If bands Santana, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, etc are in, then Savage Rose should be included IMHO.
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I was a persistent proponent for adding Savage Rose in the 2012 thread as evidenced by my posts in that thread.

It was unsuccessful so I subsequently laid their case to rest but would still support their addition.

IMO, they should be added for their proto-prog beginnings (a tough case I know), whereas, PR or crossover would suffice.

I don't know how well Anders knows the band's music, but I would be glad to help with bio and discography.
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Points: 3535 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2021 at 07:23
The thing about the Savage Rose is, they were always a very unique band on the Danish scene, especially due to their unusual combination of musical styles. I don't know how much influence they had on prog, because the prog scene wasn't that big in Denmark. And the more regular prog bands (e.g. Ache or Culpeper's Orchard) clearly looked more to England for inspiration. Moreover, the Savage Rose were not well-known outside Scandinavia, so any influence may not have reached any further than that.

I'll gladly contribute to a biography if needed, but I need to get my rock encyclopedia first, especially since there were multiple line-up changes, and today singer Annisette is the only original member left in the band.
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Points: 37595 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2021 at 00:47
^ Good stuff.

It wasn't really shot down in perpetuity as I read it for PR. It was just felt that a strong enough case was not presented since PR and PP has worked in a different way to other teams: Prog Related Submissions Policy (CLICK)

The written arguments making the case mattered, as well as general support in the topics in Suggest New Bands. We aren't as traditional, although it still helps if one can add things like most relevant albums, prog personnel relations (I see at RYM it linked to Culpepper's Orchard, which is in Eclectic, but I don't know which members played in both), influence on Prog acts etc.

That said, I was really impressed with Dødens triumf, and not just because I really like it (though that makes the listening easier and does add enthusiasm), but I would like to see that in PA. I have now also checked out much of Wild Child, but found it less convincing. Now listening to Solen var også din (which is a very interesting folk mix). Musically, I think this would fit Prog Related well.

I don't know enough about the band, so I can't answer questions like (from the PR definition page):
- Influence on progressive rock
- Members of important progressive rock bands
- Integral part of the prog-rock scene
- Influenced by progressive rock

And most importantly, "Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture.
A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to [The Shaggs? Of course it would, cause the Shaggs rock!]" ;)

If people can bring some of that up that might make things easier for PR. And also someone or someones as a team effort would need to be willing to prepare the addition and add the albums. If it's someone like say the OP, Anders, Manuel, or you or whoever, I can add the bio and give credit (could be a team effort). Be easiest to come from someone or ones really familiar with the band who know and can explain why this should be here. Short descriptions of albums stylistically and why it should be included in PR would help.

We'll see how the thread goes, but I know I'm open to suggesting it to PR.

EDIT: An ill prepared suggestion topic that doesn't highlight the most relevant examples or make a good case can make the difference. One thing I find useful to do is try to compare it to all the most relevant acts included in Prog Archives that I think of (especially for PR and PP where it takes more effort to make the case and especially highlighting those that have similarities and are included in Prog categories). An "As x is here in the Krautrock category, and this is like x, so I suggest including y" helps. Some people sometimes use the worst examples to try to make the case (not apples and apples). Like, Metallica is here and I don't think that's Prog, so you should include Donovan cause it's more Prog. That makes the case worse and less likely to be taken seriously (not that anyone would do that here, but I have seen such arguments -- made snarkily usually). And of course it helps in suggestion threads if people state why they feel something suitable for inclusion who participate.


Edited by Logan - July 08 2021 at 01:39
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Points: 15347 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2021 at 23:23
After listening to the entier album Dødens triumf for the first time, i am sold on the fact that this band deserves a place here.

Their earlier albums truly are psychedelic rock but on this particular album they really stepped things up and created a bonafide prog album even if it may be considered crossover by our standards here.

SOOOOOO...... admins, please do consider this band for a second chance

Start at this album in 1972 not the earlier ones

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Points: 15347 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2021 at 20:50
One of those bands that fell between the cracks.

One of the MAJOR problems with adding bands to this site is that those who suggest these bands DO NOT suggest the appropriate albums to explore.

Bands like Savage Rose are very borderline with the majority of their output and weren't exactly common household names in the English speaking world therefore easily could have been overlooked.

My vote for inclusion pretty much would be for their 1972 album Dødens triumf which should at least qualify them as CROSSOVER.

Has anybody suggested them to crossover with this album as a reference?

If someone only evaluated their earlier albums they probably would have rejected them.

I would have.

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Points: 19017 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2021 at 20:32
How dare a band that was featured on the Supernatural Fairy Tales box set not be included on this site. Next thing you know they'll have to add ELO and Golden Earring. Wink


Wikipedia has them as prog but also a whole bunch of other things. 
The Savage Rose
Savage Rose at Smukfest 2011
Savage Rose at Smukfest 2011
Background information
OriginDenmark
GenresPsychedelic rock, progressive rock, folk rock, psychedelic folk, blues rock
Years active1967-present


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 07 2021 at 20:34
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^ Where would you place them, Manuel, and based on what albums?

At this point, a really solid case for inclusion likely would need to be made to convince.

^^ David, I don't know that it can as I may well have misread it. In fact, I probably did. They talk about removing ones from the list, but that doesn't need to mean the Progfreak list. It's an idiom, doesn't even need to be any written/ visible list. I do know Crossover team members checked it and proposed it to Prog Related. I used to deal with Crossover a lot, but not so much by that time, and so I don't even know how consistent they were with it. I was on the Eclectic team, and we didn't add everything to ProgFreak that we checked when using the charts if we thought after some discussion it fit better somewhere else.

Indeed, it is useful to be be able to check to see if a band has been evaluated. Searching the collab area can also be a chore.

I used to wish that we had dynamic charts at PA where we can move suggestions from the chart from one team to the next, be able to see newest suggestions first etc., and read short comments to go with the chart from those who check the bands. Progfreak is good, though. I should use it more again, like to review and add album tags etc. I like what Mike did with it. Cool site.

Edited by Logan - July 07 2021 at 20:00
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They should be on prog archives.
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Points: 7255 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yam yam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2021 at 19:32
^ Sorry Greg, I didn't realise that the PA tab on progfreak could disappear altogether if a band was 'removed' from the chart. The charts of several evaluations that I have looked at previously which have been 'removed' have still been visible, such as https://progfreak.com/Dolphy-Kick-Bebop-176851.html?path=pa/recent and https://progfreak.com/The-Wood-Demons-170161.html?path=pa/recent. But those two examples are quite recent evaluations. Maybe after a period of time the chart (and PA tab) does disappear, but if this is the case then it's a bit of a shame, since it means that those of us who don't have access to the collab zone can't reliably check back to see if a newly-suggested band or artist has been previously evaluated by a team that uses progfreak. Cry
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