The Savage rose is missing on the list
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Topic: The Savage rose is missing on the list
Posted By: ToZn86
Subject: The Savage rose is missing on the list
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 12:18
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My favorite band Savage Rose is missing on the list, taste it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLN5r1INIIE" rel="nofollow - The Savage Rose - A Girl I Knew - YouTube |
Replies:
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 12:53
| What is the list you are referring to? |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 18:05
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^ I think Michael means that they aren't on the site, and he thinks that they should be. There have been two suggestions for the band's inclusion already, both of which were somewhat inconclusive regarding whether or not their music was prog enough to be included here. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86384" rel="nofollow - This thread was the most recent (April 2012), and includes a link back to the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55037" rel="nofollow - previous one from January 2009, posted in the later thread by my good self as the second reply on page 1.  Scott (Evolver) added the band to https://progfreak.com/The-Savage-Rose-154286.html" rel="nofollow - progfreak in readiness for an evaluation in Crossover back in 2012, but it never actually happened. Savage Rose were discussed in the Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation part of the forum back in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=118127" rel="nofollow - January 2019 too, where it was mentioned by the original poster (The Anders) towards the end of the thread that "from what I understand, they have been suggested before, but it was turned down". That's actually not correct, since no evaluation in Crossover was ever initiated. Maybe current admins could move this thread to Suggest New Bands and Artists, so that the matter can finally be put to bed?  |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 18:23
| Savage Rose was checked by Crossover and then submitted to the Admin Team for Prog Related. It wasn't really flat out rejected for all time as I read it, but it was felt to be a weak case (not a strong enough case had been made) and not to fit the Prog Related criteria well enough. Basically it was rejected unless a really compelling case is ever made for it. It was deemed not Prog enough for a Prog category and not a strong case for Prog Related. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 18:27
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^ But based on what period? Their early rock/pop/jazz/classical/psychedelic fusion from 1968 to 1972, the "Balkan" period (1978-1990) or their later soul-influenced music? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 18:33
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^ I have no idea (scratch that, probably the period and music that was deemed most relevant -- early period would have been considered for sure). I wasn't part of the PR team so I don't have the PMs presenting the case for Prog Related, nor do I know the band well. Crossover likely based it in on what was presented in the 2012 suggestion thread, and maybe more music, and then thought it better for Prog Related. Psych checked it before that and was unsure/ not convinced. PR works differently than other categories. The arguments are considered important, and that a case is presented that ticks as many of the Prog Related criteria boxes as possible. If compelling arguments (well-researched, logical and thorough) were not presented, than that likely would have had an effect. By the way, the Crossover team would sometimes remove entries from their list once they decided it was not for them (I just read about this when doing a topic search for Savage Rose in their thread, if I read it properly). They were the ones who checked it then passed it on to PR for evaluation as they thought that would be more suitable. So just because they don't have a ProgFreak entry doesn't mean they didn't check something. Other teams who regularly use it have been inconsistent in its use (use it at some times and not others, often depends on the period. With Eclectic we used it then later made our own charts, since it was just to help keep us organised really, rather than to help others follow an evaluation. Not sure what they do now). |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 19:32
^ Sorry Greg, I didn't realise that the PA tab on progfreak could disappear altogether if a band was 'removed' from the chart. The charts of several evaluations that I have looked at previously which have been 'removed' have still been visible, such as https://progfreak.com/Dolphy-Kick-Bebop-176851.html?path=pa/recent" rel="nofollow - https://progfreak.com/Dolphy-Kick-Bebop-176851.html?path=pa/recent and https://progfreak.com/The-Wood-Demons-170161.html?path=pa/recent" rel="nofollow - https://progfreak.com/The-Wood-Demons-170161.html?path=pa/recent . But those two examples are quite recent evaluations. Maybe after a period of time the chart (and PA tab) does disappear, but if this is the case then it's a bit of a shame, since it means that those of us who don't have access to the collab zone can't reliably check back to see if a newly-suggested band or artist has been previously evaluated by a team that uses progfreak. 
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 19:33
| They should be on prog archives. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 19:46
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^ Where would you place them, Manuel, and based on what albums? At this point, a really solid case for inclusion likely would need to be made to convince. ^^ David, I don't know that it can as I may well have misread it. In fact, I probably did. They talk about removing ones from the list, but that doesn't need to mean the Progfreak list. It's an idiom, doesn't even need to be any written/ visible list. I do know Crossover team members checked it and proposed it to Prog Related. I used to deal with Crossover a lot, but not so much by that time, and so I don't even know how consistent they were with it. I was on the Eclectic team, and we didn't add everything to ProgFreak that we checked when using the charts if we thought after some discussion it fit better somewhere else. Indeed, it is useful to be be able to check to see if a band has been evaluated. Searching the collab area can also be a chore. I used to wish that we had dynamic charts at PA where we can move suggestions from the chart from one team to the next, be able to see newest suggestions first etc., and read short comments to go with the chart from those who check the bands. Progfreak is good, though. I should use it more again, like to review and add album tags etc. I like what Mike did with it. Cool site. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 20:32
How dare a band that was featured on the Supernatural Fairy Tales box set not be included on this site. Next thing you know they'll have to add ELO and Golden Earring. 
Wikipedia has them as prog but also a whole bunch of other things.
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 20:50
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One of those bands that fell between the cracks. One of the MAJOR problems with adding bands to this site is that those who suggest these bands DO NOT suggest the appropriate albums to explore. Bands like Savage Rose are very borderline with the majority of their output and weren't exactly common household names in the English speaking world therefore easily could have been overlooked. My vote for inclusion pretty much would be for their 1972 album Dødens triumf which should at least qualify them as CROSSOVER. Has anybody suggested them to crossover with this album as a reference? If someone only evaluated their earlier albums they probably would have rejected them. I would have. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL_YUNVeE4c&list=OLAK5uy_nga9Wxo0q-eb69aT_IlmxklN6uNXU37L8" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL_YUNVeE4c&list=OLAK5uy_nga9Wxo0q-eb69aT_IlmxklN6uNXU37L8
-------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 07 2021 at 23:23
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After listening to the entier album Dødens triumf for the first time, i am sold on the fact that this band deserves a place here. Their earlier albums truly are psychedelic rock but on this particular album they really stepped things up and created a bonafide prog album even if it may be considered crossover by our standards here. SOOOOOO...... admins, please do consider this band for a second chance Start at this album in 1972 not the earlier ones ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 08 2021 at 00:47
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^ Good stuff. It wasn't really shot down in perpetuity as I read it for PR. It was just felt that a strong enough case was not presented since PR and PP has worked in a different way to other teams: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=3942761#3942761" rel="nofollow - Prog Related Submissions Policy (CLICK) The written arguments making the case mattered, as well as general support in the topics in Suggest New Bands. We aren't as traditional, although it still helps if one can add things like most relevant albums, prog personnel relations (I see at RYM it linked to Culpepper's Orchard, which is in Eclectic, but I don't know which members played in both), influence on Prog acts etc. That said, I was really impressed with Dødens triumf, and not just because I really like it (though that makes the listening easier and does add enthusiasm), but I would like to see that in PA. I have now also checked out much of Wild Child, but found it less convincing. Now listening to Solen var også din (which is a very interesting folk mix). Musically, I think this would fit Prog Related well. I don't know enough about the band, so I can't answer questions like (from the PR definition page): - Influence on progressive rock - Members of important progressive rock bands - Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Influenced by progressive rock And most importantly, "Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture. A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to [The Shaggs? Of course it would, cause the Shaggs rock!]" ;) If people can bring some of that up that might make things easier for PR. And also someone or someones as a team effort would need to be willing to prepare the addition and add the albums. If it's someone like say the OP, Anders, Manuel, or you or whoever, I can add the bio and give credit (could be a team effort). Be easiest to come from someone or ones really familiar with the band who know and can explain why this should be here. Short descriptions of albums stylistically and why it should be included in PR would help. We'll see how the thread goes, but I know I'm open to suggesting it to PR. EDIT: An ill prepared suggestion topic that doesn't highlight the most relevant examples or make a good case can make the difference. One thing I find useful to do is try to compare it to all the most relevant acts included in Prog Archives that I think of (especially for PR and PP where it takes more effort to make the case and especially highlighting those that have similarities and are included in Prog categories). An "As x is here in the Krautrock category, and this is like x, so I suggest including y" helps. Some people sometimes use the worst examples to try to make the case (not apples and apples). Like, Metallica is here and I don't think that's Prog, so you should include Donovan cause it's more Prog. That makes the case worse and less likely to be taken seriously (not that anyone would do that here, but I have seen such arguments -- made snarkily usually). And of course it helps in suggestion threads if people state why they feel something suitable for inclusion who participate. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: July 08 2021 at 07:23
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The thing about the Savage Rose is, they were always a very unique band on the Danish scene, especially due to their unusual combination of musical styles. I don't know how much influence they had on prog, because the prog scene wasn't that big in Denmark. And the more regular prog bands (e.g. Ache or Culpeper's Orchard) clearly looked more to England for inspiration. Moreover, the Savage Rose were not well-known outside Scandinavia, so any influence may not have reached any further than that. I'll gladly contribute to a biography if needed, but I need to get my rock encyclopedia first, especially since there were multiple line-up changes, and today singer Annisette is the only original member left in the band.
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 06:54
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I was a persistent proponent for adding Savage Rose in the 2012 thread as evidenced by my posts in that thread. It was unsuccessful so I subsequently laid their case to rest but would still support their addition. IMO, they should be added for their proto-prog beginnings (a tough case I know), whereas, PR or crossover would suffice. I don't know how well Anders knows the band's music, but I would be glad to help with bio and discography.
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 07:25
| If bands Santana, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, etc are in, then Savage Rose should be included IMHO. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 08:24
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So what's the next step? Any admins able to carry this torch? Logan? ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 10:55
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I said that I'd see how this thread goes. How it develops, how well it answers those questions I raised before. Arguments and counter-arguments. I thought maybe a really solid case would be made or built here to demonstrate the Prog connection with band members, the general scene, similar music included in Prog categories.... For me to present the case to Admin, I'd need more than "these albums are proggy" (the arguments matter). There's lot's of proggy albums not in PA. Anders offered to contribute to the bio as needed, and then earlyprog, and I wouldn't have considered bringing it forward if people had not offered to write the bio (which also tries to explain its Prog relations) and add the albums. Proto-Prog is an interesting idea, earlyprog. "If bands Santana, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, etc are in, then Savage Rose should be included IMHO." To be honest, this killed it for me (at least for me to bring it forward). I am now not comfortable bringing this case to Admin. I won't now, but an SC might who knows the band and arguments really well and can make a clear and logical case for it that shows its relations to Prog and the Prog scene well. A: None of those are in Prog categories other than Santana, and Santana is controversial for its placement (people not knowing the discography well enough, I might think), so to say this case is related to those is akin to calling it "Prog-Related Related" and "Proto-Prog Related". B: It has not been demonstrated what those bands have in common with Savage Rose, musically, in terms of influence etc. Like I said, it should be compared to the most relevant of bands, preferably those thought of as Prog proper, and specifics help. The music itself is not so much the issue for me as the arguments. "Should" arguments commonly carry the burden of proof. If those are the most relevant acts, it makes for a harder case when the best examples are not considered very Prog or Prog proper (even if I could draw all sorts of similarities to each band, all are bluesy and can be quite ballsy, and Savage Rose can be very blues). Black Sabbath was quite a controversial addition that some people still question, and this could itself be considered a significantly controversial case (not accepted for Psych or Crossover, and had already been passed to Prog Related where it was not accepted). Unique as pointed out earlier (at least for the local scene) is good in a way, but of course it can make the case harder to prove. I think at this point it would be best to go the expected route (with the link I provided earlier). So discussion develops more, and then an SC PMs us with the best arguments for it (and hopefully highlights the best counterarguments) if that SC supports it strongly, and then if we approved, adds the band. This would be the second time coming to PR, and the arguments and links to Prog (not just this sounds Prog) shown in people's research should be pretty solid and detail oriented. So I won't be a torchbearer. My flame died. Better that one much more knowledgeable than I, both in the music and knowing details about the band and band member's history, presents the case to Admin (an SC by PM if one is passionate about it) to argue for it. I hear a Prog relation in certain music (albums), but I wouldn't be comfortable with that being my sole case. I lack the deep knowledge about the band and band members to make a solid case for it myself that I would be comfortable with for PR. And I don't know enough for Proto Prog. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 11:56
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I prefer the late 60s/early 70s Detroit band Savage Grace (dig that crazy prog harpsichord, man).... ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 16:54
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I like Savage Rose, but never heard about Savage Grace (and hope they have more songs that are good other than the cover just listed) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 16:59
Here's an interesting one. Imagine breeding the Guess Who with Manfred Mann. You'd end up with something like this highly derivative but fun tune... ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
MortSahlFan wrote:Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 17:28
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The case I would make for the Savage Rose is mostly based on their early albums (including Dødens Triumf). First of all there is the combination of (psychedelic) rock and elements of classical music. The two main creative forces of the band, Thomas and Anders Koppel, were both from the classical music world, and both have been classical composers at the same time (they were children of the acclaimed composer Hermann D. Koppel). It shows, especially when it comes to the music's harmonic patterns. Already it's characteristic for a lot of early prog that it flirts heavily with classical music (Procol Harum, The Moody Blues et al). Then there is the obvious jazz influence that came with the acclaimed jazz drummer Alex Riel (jazz rock fusion - which is a subgenre on PA). They later turned to soul and gospel, as well as different kinds of folk music (including Balkan), so again, it is mostly because of their early work.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 09 2021 at 17:53
Hi, I was thinking that there are times, when choosing one album for you folks to listen to, that it should be a GIVEN that the band has more than one, and it would require a bit more attention for all the listens, and while there maybe variety in the albums, in the end, the sum of its parts, make the band be far more attractive than the single band that we constantly add and their next album is nothing. This band was not "lucky", even though many folks will say that each person (and band) make their own luck, and despite the incredible amount of material by Archie Patterson in EUROCK about this band, in the end, no one gave a darn. Well, heck, no one read Richard Pinhas philosophical essays either. AND that makes us all "progressive". Another band that also had a lot of material in that periodical was OSANNA, and look where the preferential level of that band is on PA. PA started AFTER the days of the far out and great music, and its folks do not all have the musical sense and history that I would prefer they have. If they did, I think that a lot of the genres and sub-genres would likely be very different from a musical perspective, and yet, its descriptions are more on par with geeks than true musicians and their talent! My take, is that the band could/should be here, but not for one album, but for its collection of many albums, in a category that fits them better. I doubt that many of the folks that "study" these options will care to listen to 2 or 3 or 4 albums by a band ... since almost each and every time, they are voting for the band's first album, and I can not certify that it was listened to in its entirety. It sounded like ... is almost all I read and see listed! I'm not the expert in these categories since many of them confuse me silly, but something prog-related makes more sense, but there is a lot of material that they have that does not fit "prog-anything" and this is probably what most folks on PA are addressing the most.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 15 2021 at 11:02
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What's the progress on this case?
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 15 2021 at 11:08
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^ limbo. Don't think anyone thinks they are quite prog enough for inclusion. Soooooo, don't anyone get their hopes up ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 15 2021 at 11:31
Not quite prog enough = PR or proto-prog isn't it  ...or crossover prog  Seriously, though, I just want to know if I can add anything to their case to ensure that they are reconsidered, but if they are under consideration again, then I can remain in dormant state for a little longer ...standby mode
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 15 2021 at 12:47
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There is nothing in this thread that I can see to suggest that The Savage Rose is being reconsidered. Greg (Logan) summed the situation up quite nicely in the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=126810&PID=5913675#5913675" rel="nofollow - fourth post on page 1 , where he wrote: "Savage Rose was checked by Crossover and then submitted to the Admin Team for Prog Related. It wasn't really flat out rejected for all time as I read it, but it was felt to be a weak case (not a strong enough case had been made) and not to fit the Prog Related criteria well enough. Basically it was rejected unless a really compelling case is ever made for it. It was deemed not Prog enough for a Prog category and not a strong case for Prog Related." I've highlighted "unless a really compelling case is ever made for it" there, because that's what has to happen before there is any chance whatsoever of this going any further. In a later post on that first page, Greg gives the link for the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=3942761#3942761" rel="nofollow - Prog Related Submissions Policy , and goes on to say in a post even further down the page: "I think at this point it would be best to go the expected route (with the link I provided earlier). So discussion develops more, and then an SC PMs us with the best arguments for it (and hopefully highlights the best counterarguments) if that SC supports it strongly, and then if we approved, adds the band. This would be the second time coming to PR, and the arguments and links to Prog (not just this sounds Prog) shown in people's research should be pretty solid and detail oriented." (My highlight again). There isn't likely to be an evaluation in Crossover anytime soon, so until a Special Collaborator steps forward and prepares a thorough and compelling case for their inclusion, which he or she then presents to our current admins, then as Mike says above, things will remain in limbo more or less indefinitely. |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 17 2021 at 10:31
Logan, I will make a strong case, but if I'm not mistaking, you are requiring that a SC (Special Collaborator not a Simple Collaborator like me) carries the case to the Admin? Before I launch into this, I need certainty that a SC will assist me and bring the case forward to the Admin. Any SC volunteering or suggestions? Easy Money?
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 17 2021 at 11:28
| ^ Thanks for asking but I'm way too busy these days. Short answer though, they belong on the site. |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 17 2021 at 15:30
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They're certainly on https://www.proggnosis.com/Artist/8393" rel="nofollow - Proggnosis (categorised there as Early Progressive). It's uncertain whether or not a formal evaluation was ever carried out in Crossover Prog, since there is no PA tab on https://progfreak.com/The-Savage-Rose-154286.html" rel="nofollow - progfreak , but it has been suggested earlier in this thread that the band could have been 'removed' from the chart after the evaluation was completed, and the PA tab has subsequently disappeared. Either way, any evaluation would certainly have been carried out quite a long time ago (probably 10 years if progfreak is to be used as a guide), and several albums have been released since (which are not necessarily anything to do with prog, but let's not get too concerned about that for the moment - it just means that even if a formal evaluation HAS been carried out before, another one is possible now). Since we don't know if or when any previous evaluation actually happened, then ALL the band's albums can theoretically be considered now, so it doesn't matter if the more recent ones aren't deemed proggy enough - any evaluation now should instead focus on the earlier ones that are more generally regarded as prog (especially Dodens Triumf). Taking into account the difficult and uncertain process of getting the band included in Prog Related or Proto Prog, and the current lack of a willing SC to act as 'torch bearer' in any case, mightn't it be worth asking the current Crossover Team to carry out an evaluation instead in an attempt to get the band onto the site? Nothing to lose imho, and you never know, maybe the force would be with us on this occasion. There'd be no shortage of reviewers waiting in the wings to give their thoughts on the band's albums, I wouldn't think.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 19 2021 at 14:00
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Hi, If there is something sad about that band not being included here, is that there are a lot of bands listed in here that are far more "pop/rock" oriented that SR might have been, although I always had the feeling that Annisette's favorite singer probably was someone like Janis. A lot of those bands, in the early days were very much pop/rock and they kind of had to be to be able to sell a few more albums in order to gather attention, and one can even look at FOCUS, which kinda did the same thing, and on their 2nd album, Eruption took a whole side, and I guess you could say it broke the mold, however, their big hit song ... is not progressive at all ... it's a great radio piece that FM radio milked senseless, at least in the West Coast. I would imagine that if we were to judge FOCUS by its first album, like we do so much stuff on PA these days, the band would not have quite made it either. I simply think that the ideas and the concepts and the process is missing too many buttons, and has too many ideas all over the place instead of being more concise about the divisions and subdivisions and give the artists a lot more deserving appreciation. The Savage Rose stands no chance, specially against the modern bands that think they are doing "prog" simply because they changed a note, or played a chord upside down! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 21 2021 at 10:03
IMO Savage Rose are eligible for a full band inclusion at PA but at the same time wonder if the concept album 'Dødens Triumf' would fit the genreVARIOUS ARTISTS (CONCEPT ALBUMS & THEMED COMPILATIONS)Your pros and cons? I prefer that the opening poster or perhaps The Anders follows the formal route through the Suggest New Bands And Artists lounge for an evaluation with a reference to this and earlier posts. I'm inclined to proto-prog and therefore somewhat reluctant to propose Savage Rose to the Crossover team myself. |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 21 2021 at 11:18
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This topic was posted in the wrong part of the forum to begin with really, so all that really needs to happen now is for admins to move it to Suggest New Bands and Artists, so that a formal evaluation (in Crossover) could be started, and I hinted at this in the third post on page 1. I don't really think starting yet another fresh thread over in that part of the forum would bring anything new to the table. Keishiro? Greg? Any thoughts?
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 21 2021 at 11:46
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The topic was put in the wrong part of the forum (The Prog lounge) and I moved this to General Music Discussions for some of the reasons that I stated in my first post in this topic. It was checked by Crossover team members (I saw what was written in the team thread), was not accepted there, and they passed it to the Admin team to check (wasn't part of it then, but I read the comments) where it was not accepted. Even had this never been checked, this topic does not meet the standards as highlighted here for creating a Suggest New Bands topic http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122381" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122381 (not that I would expect that from the OP as that person didn't do this Suggest new Bands). If someone wants to resubmit it to Crossover, then I suggest PMing a Crossover team member and asking them about it, or if a collab, mentioning it directly in their thread. EarlyProg is not that comfortable with Crossover and one can see what he says. I'd be open to re-checking it for Proto-Prog or Prog-Related, but would rather it be done the formal way now according to the policies presented here for the reasons I stated. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146 If another admin wishes to move this, that's up to them. I'm not comfortable doing that and grew uncomfortable with this topic (seems to be a bit of pressure and misunderstanding). I plan to take a break from this site, so if Admin check it in my absence for PR/PP, I will abstain (I'm okay with it in if they think it fits the criteria and support the arguments that are presented). This will be my last post in this thread, though. |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 21 2021 at 14:54
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This will be my last post here too, since as an ordinary member of the site I've done as much as I can to try and get a formal review carried out in Crossover in such a way that those of us who can't access the collab zone can at least see how the team's votes were recorded on https://progfreak.com/The-Savage-Rose-154286.html" rel="nofollow - progfreak (currently no PA tab exists there). Here are the last two threads from the Suggest New Bands and Artists part of the forum, both running to two full pages: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86384" rel="nofollow - April 2012 . http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55037" rel="nofollow - January 2009 , including a http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55037&PID=3124571#3124571" rel="nofollow - biography written by John Jepsen (aka tamijo). There's some discussion http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=118127" rel="nofollow - here too in the Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation part of the forum from January 2019. This is a later bio, copied from the band's old website retrieved from the https://web.archive.org/web/20180315192433/http://www.thesavagerose.net/biography" rel="nofollow - wayback machine , 15th March 2018: "BIOGRAPHY The Danish Legend, The Savage Rose, alias Annisette & Thomas Koppel. Not only Bjork has mentioned The Savage Rose among her major influences; They are intensely loved throughout Europe and by their ten thousands of dedicated fans around the world. Annisette’s name equals total integrity and honesty, absolutely unique stage performance and vocals, making her “one of ‘pop music’s most unique and powerful vocalists” (Archie Patterson, Eurock, USA). Thomas Koppel’s name is synonymous with stone original composing and producing and enormous versatility: effortlessly moving from the mind-blowing songs of The Savage Rose to film music, symphonic works, musicals ballets and more. As noted in Miller-Freeman’s US book ‘The Unknown Legends Of Rock’n'Roll, they are among the rare true ORIGINATORS of the music of today. However, as noted by Rolling Stone’s David Fricke, The Savage Rose 2003 are far from nostalgia, they’re “not prisoners of history because they never stopped making it”. They are continuously at the very front edge of contemporary music, effortlessly combining elements of jazz, hip-hop, R&B, Alternative, and World Music into a unique, highly spicy and sensual pop, embracing audiences of all ages, nationalities, and ethnicities. Their 19 albums have been Gold, Platinum, Double Platinum, up to four times Platinum in Scandinavia. They have 2 Scandinavian Grammies, for BLACK ANGEL (1996) and TAMELESS (1999); innumerable Grammy nominations (including 3 for the 2002 album FOR YOUR LOVE); a Film Academy Award for best film score & song. Annisette and Thomas have both been nominated for the prestigious Great Music Award of the Nordic Council, and Thomas has been awarded the Lifetime Honorary Award of the Danish State. They have released 20 original albums; toured most of the world including prestigious festivals like The Newport Jazz festival (now the JVC Jazz Festival), the Montreux festival, the Molde Festival, Ragnarock and the Roskilde Festival. Their ballet “Triumph Of Death” is the greatest success of The Royal Ballet ever, with hundreds of sold-out performances worldwide, including the Metropolitan Opera in New York. Thomas has created symphonies, ballets, film music, an opera, music dramas, and, with Annisette, the painfully beautiful and controversial musical ‘Bella Vita’ on homeless children. After a roaring start with albums recorded at e. g. the Mick Jagger mansion in the UK and the famous Mirasound Studios in New York, the artist rejected their managers’ quest to go to Vietnam and have a picture taken shaking hands with President Johnson. They didn’t want their music utilized for support of the war, and in order to save their minds and their creativity, The Savage Rose went underground for years; exploring their own native language, Danish. They lived among the underprivileged of Copenhagen but became a creative musical powerhouse, performing for huge audiences in many countries. They created eight underground albums during this period, eventually becoming cult objects all over Europe. A large chapter of ‘The Unknown Legends Of Rock’n'Roll” by Ritchie Unterberger (USA 1998) is devoted to this era in the history of The Savage Rose. In 1996 Annisette & Thomas K. created their first pop/rock/R&B album in English for many years, ‘Black Angel’, recorded at the Conway Studio in Hollywood, with friend George Duke as executive producer. Hits like ‘Black Angel’, ‘What Do You Do Now’ and the unique rendition of ‘Where Have All The Flowers Gone’ took them to number one on the charts once again: In Denmark ‘Black Angel’ is close to triple platinum, in Norway Gold; and it won the Grammy for Best Rock Album. The story continues with two more dazzling modern classics, ‘Tameless’ (1999) and ‘For Your Love’ (2001), awarded another Grammy ( Best Female Singer), sales close to Platinum - and reviews like ‘An out-of-this-world pop album….’ ‘A gift for life…… ‘ ‘Steamingly erotic, flamingly resentful, mellow, and bittersweet….’ ‘The demons are whizzing by like wild missiles…’ ‘Makes you wish the music will never stop….’ Their 17 concerts in Scandinavia in 2002 sold 150,000 tickets. The enormous productivity of The Savage Rose can only be understood in the light of their uncompromising and never-ending dedication to social justice and human rights. They once and for all refused to split their life and their music in two; their political courage has taken them to war zones and areas of dangerous oppression, even to performing in prisons and refugee camps along with peaceful, huge summer festivals. They have never complained about the career that was rightfully theirs but was taken away from them because of their honesty, but instead they stress that this kept them close to their audience and mentally sane as compared to many artists bending to corporate pressure. We have only mentioned a small part of their 20 original albums, their several large-scale music drama productions, symphonic music, and more. Thomas wrote the score for the independent Hollywood film ‘Everything Put Together’ by Marc Forster (MONSTERS’ BALL) and numerous other feature films, He was awarded a Danish Film Academy Award 1992 for Best Score and Song. They are both multi-talented: Annisette, besides being among the most enigmatic vocalist legends for decades, and still evolving, is a world class lyricist, writer, poet, and a unique painter. Thomas, besides being a legendary composer of rare versatility, is a world-class producer, an awarded keyboardist, and a fine photographer." A borderline case indeed, and The Savage Rose is probably destined to remain outside PA for all eternity, but it would be nice to get the matter resolved now once and for all. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: July 21 2021 at 18:16
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That biography only really describes the music of their later day work. I have to get my Danish rock encyclopedia. |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 22 2021 at 11:00
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Currently 3 votes for Savage Rose as Prog Related at PA's Crossover Chart at ProgFreak. Doesn't that make 'em eligible as a Pog Related band at PA? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 22 2021 at 11:53
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It has indicated eligibility to be considered for Prog Related (please read the link I provided on the guidelines if you haven't yet). And indeed it has been considered as I've said. The Crossover team were the ones who submitted it to PR for evaluation in the first place as you will have read. I never meant to imply that it wasn't eligible for Prog Related (I was trying to explain the history of the case process, and expectations) -- from a music standpoint alone, I think it would get my yes vote, but I don't think a sufficient case has been made overall to get my yes. If Prog Related just meant having Proggy music, then it would be easier. Here are the chart results (Crossover has been looking into it again despite not being accepted before):
So it does indicate that Crossover looked at it years ago, used "removed" as a Crossover candidate, and suggested it to Prog Related (as I know they did from reading in the collab zone and admin zone) where it was not accepted because it wasn't felt that a strong case had been made. Like I said earlier, I don't read that it was ever rejected for Prog Related (or rejected in perpetuity might be a better way to put it), it was checked and felt like not a good enough case had been made for it. So yes, I think it's still been eligible to be checked again despite not having been accepted for Prog Related before (would want to revisit the exact words that were expressed, but my interpretation was not accepted, but not rejected necessarily. Like a strong case had not been made, but a better one might come later). I already provided this link, but please read if you haven't. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=3942761#3942761" rel="nofollow - CLICK Again, Crossover team members were the ones who submitted it for Prog Related evaluation before after they decided that they thought it better for Prog Related than in Crossover, but it wasn't accepted for PR. I was saying before that I don't think I'd be the best person to spearhead it by bringing it to the Admin team (I've only listened to three albums in full, https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/savage-rose/dodens-triumf/" rel="nofollow - Dødens triumf I found wonderful, and I don't know the history or relations to other Prog acts that some others might, so others might be better when it comes to making arguments for it as per various Prog Related criteria). Sorry if I haven't been clear enough in my posts. I don't know why David (Yam Yam) was saying that no PA tab existed, because I know there was one before (was mentioned in an earlier topic) and of course there is one now. https://progfreak.com/The-Savage-Rose-154286.html?path=pa/recent" rel="nofollow - https://progfreak.com/The-Savage-Rose-154286.html?path=pa/recent with a recent vote. Seems he was on the team, and voted himself for Prog Related, so it must be me who is totally confused. It indicated that there was a formal evaluation, and I don't understand some of the problems that people have presented with this case. Sorry if I confused matters by not expressing things clearly enough, reading through the topic carefully enough, or thinking things through well enough. I still think a very solid and well-argued case case should be made for it before considering bringing it to Admin again officially (strong arguments from people who know the history well and can map out the Prog relations well and tick off as many of those PR boxes as they can). It's very clear to me that the case presented to Admin was not considered strong enough, did not adequately fit various Prog Related criteria/ guidelines,, and that I would not be considered unless a stronger case was ever presented. The case seemed to be simply that it is Proggy and wasn't Prog enough to be be accepted for a Prog category, but that's not really good enough to make a strong case to PR. The arguments and links to Progressive Music scenes and history matter. The impact and influence on Prog are things to consider, related Prog bands, the history, the relatedness of the personnel with Prog etc. In regards to the bio, it should also delve into the reasons why this fits PR satisfactorily. Right now based on the arguments made in this thread, I would not vote yes as I am unconvinced.
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(progaardvark)
(DamoXt7942)Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: July 22 2021 at 16:35
I said I wouldn't post again either lol! However, since the PA tab (which still didn't exist when I posted the progfreak link here yesterday) has been reactivated by the fresh evaluation, and the previous evaluation which is now there again for all to see happened when I was actually part of the team, though that was only for the first half of 2013, and far too long ago for me to remember every band that we considered during those 6 months. As I mentioned in a previous post here, I didn't realise that entering 'removed' for a band in a progfreak chart eventually caused the PA tab to disappear altogether, and with it all the previous voting history. That sucks big time for me, since it means that my only means of checking whether a suggested band has been previously considered by one of the teams which uses progfreak is totally unreliable. I have still been fairly active in the Suggest New Bands and Artists part of the forum over recent years, despite no longer being able to access the collab zone to retrieve any useful information from there, but this revelation tonight has killed it stone dead for me. I do hope that The Savage Rose will be proposed again for PR by a Special Collaborator, and that this time they will be accepted by admins. As for me, I've been here for ten years now, and enjoyed the ride, but there is only so much you can do as a 'senior member'. I don't write reviews - and had to leave the Crossover team after only 6 months because I was considered 'too lenient' with my voting - so a senior member is all I would ever be here now. Shame it has ended this way, but such is life I guess.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 22 2021 at 19:57
| ^ It’s hardly your fault that I get confused, David, and I know that I confuse others. I’m not a sarcastic individual, well mostly, if you read it that way. Maybe it reactivated when it was brought back, or you didn’t search in the way I would. I don’t know, I haven’t used progfreak in about a decade, that I recall. Even before leaving the Eclectic team, we had switched to making our own lists in the team thread. Follow your bliss,, I think. I should do more of the same. I’m only here cause I like the community, of which you are part, and enjoy interacting with others usually. I think I remember those ones that I really cared about enough to argue for, and discussed, but you might have argued for more in your years here, and I may just have a better memory than most, though not as good as it was a few years ago. I don’t know of it will or won’t be included, and am pretty dispassionate about such things these days despite the fact the I posted so much in this topic to try to explain the history and expectations. If none of that was helpful, well, there are more important things in life. |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: July 22 2021 at 20:31
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PR is a good territory for them, methinks. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 23 2021 at 06:29
Logan, your posts are much appreciated and very useful in building a case for Savage Rose  As a member of the Neo-Prog team I frequently visit ProgFreak to follow the voting progress not just on neo acts but also in the other teams and know as a fact that three days ago there were no signs of Savage Rose at PF (not visible to me anyway) and then suddenly two days ago they appeared in the crossover chart. One has changed his vote from 'No' to 'PR' so that as of today, 5 of 6 crossover team members have voted PR - a pretty solid building block to building a case, IMO. As I offered above, I will build a solid and well-argued case (hopefully) provided a SC volunteered to forward it for PR (or PP) evaluation. The latter didn't succeed so my flame stopped there, but given the above - IMO - positive responses, I will modify my offer so that I will simply go ahead and prepare the case first and next seek a SC that will take over. (I had hoped that Savage Rose would be added without doing too much work but apparently not )Beware that this will take some time for me to prepare as I have actual work and a family life that I prioritize over PA
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 30 2021 at 05:37
Apparently there's no need to prepare a case. Meaning: less work by me  However, I have been asked to make their bio which I will of course. Most available text on Savage Rose is in Danish, a language I know 'fairly well'
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Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: September 19 2021 at 21:06
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Added to Prog Related. http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=11933" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=11933 Feel free to add their discography. Thanks for your patience. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 19 2021 at 21:22
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^ yay! Completely forgot about them at this point. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Matti
Date Posted: December 13 2021 at 00:43
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Savage Rose was added almost three months ago, after a long debate. For what it's worth: not a single review. No one -- except me -- has even added releases on their page which still misses the majority of albums, and all compilations, singles etc. Just one rating without reviewing for the albums I've added. I just wish some of those who wanted the band here would show some activity afterwards too. (My relationship to them is not close enough for writing reviews.)
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