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Phil Collins' Best Drumming SONGS
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Points: 18523 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 18:18
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Oh for crying out loud. Listen to the song you guys before saying it wasn't gated reverb. I'm referring to the Tubes. 


I must say, I disagree with the statement that Peter Gabriel & Co. didn't know they were doing it--I remember the articles from the time of release of "3" discussing it to death--how much the drum sounds were being experimented with. And they did it for a whole album--which makes listeners take notice much more than 10-15 seconds of playful sound experimentation.

I'd like to hear Al Kooper and Lee Rhett Keifer's exposition about the recording sessions of that first Tubes album because I notice you gave up on your argument pushing Bowie's Low as another prior exposition of gated drums use after hearing about all of the Visconti interviews.

It's not about the listening when claiming the invention here, it's about the intentional use, reuse, repeat use, and reliance on that particular sound effect. I'm sure many humans stumbled upon uses of the wheel before they realized they had something that could/should be put into full and regular use, right?



I gave up on that argument because someone pointed out that it was an eventide on low and not gated reverb. There was definitely reverb used in drums before PG 3 but it probably wasn't gated reverb. That's maybe why the wikipedia article changed to reflect that. I'm not saying for sure but based on what others pointed out PG 3 may have been the first use of gated reverb after all.  Gated reverb apparently doesn't have the echo effect that was used on the Tubes song. Drums can be punchy and have a certain kind of sound without having gated reverb or maybe even reverb. Tell me what you think the drum sound is on the opening track to Pink Floyd's "the wall" album. It's not reverb necessarily but it's very punchy sounding and beyond a normal drum sound imo. 

Anyway, I thought we moved on from this. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 18 2021 at 18:23
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Oh for crying out loud. Listen to the song you guys before saying it wasn't gated reverb. I'm referring to the Tubes. 


I must say, I disagree with the statement that Peter Gabriel & Co. didn't know they were doing it--I remember the articles from the time of release of "3" discussing it to death--how much the drum sounds were being experimented with. And they did it for a whole album--which makes listeners take notice much more than 10-15 seconds of playful sound experimentation.

I'd like to hear Al Kooper and Lee Rhett Keifer's exposition about the recording sessions of that first Tubes album because I notice you gave up on your argument pushing Bowie's Low as another prior exposition of gated drums use after hearing about all of the Visconti interviews.

It's not about the listening when claiming the invention here, it's about the intentional use, reuse, repeat use, and reliance on that particular sound effect. I'm sure many humans stumbled upon uses of the wheel before they realized they had something that could/should be put into full and regular use, right?




Edited by BrufordFreak - May 18 2021 at 18:10
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“Dodo” came immediately to mind. Pretty complex drum part with a groove to die for.
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It certainly wasn't the Live Aid show in 1985 with Zeppelin Ouch

Maybe Dance on a Volcano or anything off of Brand X Unorthodox Behavior. 
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Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

 I'm no audio engineer but I wonder if the "gated reverb discussion" may have something to do with digital effects processing vs analog effects.  The Phil Collins gated reverb that became famous was a product of the digital effects of the 80's. Obviously they had other recording techniques prior to that to create a big drum sound. 

Correct.

"Gated reverb or gated ambience is an audio processing technique that combines strong reverb and a noise gate. The effect is often associated with the sound of 1980s popular music. It was developed in 1979 by engineer Hugh Padgham and producer Steve Lillywhite while working with the artists XTC, Peter Gabriel, and Phil Collins at Townhouse Studios in London, and is most famously demonstrated in Collins's 1981 single "In the Air Tonight".
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Phil kills it on these two songs!
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 I'm no audio engineer but I wonder if the "gated reverb discussion" may have something to do with digital effects processing vs analog effects.  The Phil Collins gated reverb that became famous was a product of the digital effects of the 80's. Obviously they had other recording techniques prior to that to create a big drum sound. 
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Back on topic, no-one plays a 7/8 groove quite like Phil Collins. Inimitable. He's still a complete dick though.
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Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

I believe that was a joke at AFLowerKingCrimson’s expense, rather than a serious suggestion. 😃


No joke from me. I understand gated reverb as an effect where the reverb is sort of "gated out" after a few seconds, meaning that when you hit a drum, then the reverb will continue only until that and then fade out.

When the Levee Breaks really doesn't sound like that to me. What I hear is an echo of every drum beat coming approximately a 1/8 note later. There is clearly reverb too, but it doesn't sound to me like it is gated out at any point.
It wouldn't fade out with a gate, it would just stop.
Pretty sure Levee isn't gated, as someone else said it's just massive reverb from being at the bottom of a stairwell.

I guess 17 lol emojis was not enough to indicate I was being facetious. Next time, I will add more.
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Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

I believe that was a joke at AFLowerKingCrimson’s expense, rather than a serious suggestion. 😃


No joke from me. I understand gated reverb as an effect where the reverb is sort of "gated out" after a few seconds, meaning that when you hit a drum, then the reverb will continue only until that and then fade out.

When the Levee Breaks really doesn't sound like that to me. What I hear is an echo of every drum beat coming approximately a 1/8 note later. There is clearly reverb too, but it doesn't sound to me like it is gated out at any point.
It wouldn't fade out with a gate, it would just stop.
Pretty sure Levee isn't gated, as someone else said it's just massive reverb from being at the bottom of a stairwell.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

I believe that was a joke at AFLowerKingCrimson’s expense, rather than a serious suggestion. 😃

None of us here have the final answer. We can only go by what we read and I admit I'm just going by what I've read but in the case of "mondo bondage" it definitely sounds like gated reverb to me regardless of whether it actually is or not. Here's the link. Now you have no excuse. If you still won't listen then you are either the laziest or most stubborn person on the planet. Wink It starts at :43 and goes until :53 or so.


I have listened and I can safely say I'm not sure. It could be just echo/delay.
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It might not be gated reverb on the Tubes track either. Someone mentioned in the comments that it sounded like "reverb with pre delay" but they didn't hear any "gate." So the information I read about these songs could be wrong and then in essence I could very well be wrong too since I believed them. I am man enough to admit that. I don't get the sense that some of you guys could ever admit to being wrong though and I find that quite sad.  Anyway, I also read that Simon and Garfunkel's "the boxer" also used some kind of reverb and that is from 1970 which means it beats out LZ by one year. Tongue

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 18 2021 at 12:48
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You are correct. It's not gated revrb. Just a lot of natural echo with reverb added in post. That's why it actually sounds good.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

I believe that was a joke at AFLowerKingCrimson’s expense, rather than a serious suggestion. 😃


No joke from me. I understand gated reverb as an effect where the reverb is sort of "gated out" after a few seconds, meaning that when you hit a drum, then the reverb will continue only until that and then fade out.

When the Levee Breaks really doesn't sound like that to me. What I hear is an echo of every drum beat coming approximately a 1/8 note later. There is clearly reverb too, but it doesn't sound to me like it is gated out at any point.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Oh for crying out loud. Listen to the damn song you guys before saying it wasn't gated reverb. I'm referring to the Tubes. 


John Bonham and recording engineer Andy Johns invented gated reverb on "When the Levee Breaks". All he needed was setting up his drums at the bottom of a staircase at the Headley Grange estate, two Beyerdynamic M160 microphones and several cases of beer. LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL




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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

I believe that was a joke at AFLowerKingCrimson’s expense, rather than a serious suggestion. 😃

None of us here have the final answer. We can only go by what we read and I admit I'm just going by what I've read but in the case of "mondo bondage" it definitely sounds like gated reverb to me regardless of whether it actually is or not. Here's the link. Now you have no excuse. If you still won't listen then you are either the laziest or most stubborn person on the planet. Wink It starts at :43 and goes until :53 or so.




Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 18 2021 at 12:33
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Oh for crying out loud. Listen to the song you guys before saying it wasn't gated reverb. I'm referring to the Tubes. 


I thought we had already agreed to disagree, so I have no need to listen. I might well hear something that sounds like gated reverb - but that doesn’t mean it is gated reverb. I think that is the problem - as I’ve already stated in a previous comment. Because you can hear something that sounds similar, you are confusing it for the same thing.



You didn't listen to the song. That says it all right there. If you can say after listening it definitely isn't that's one thing but you didn't even listen to it. But yeah, maybe it isn't. I can admit I might be wrong. 

It’s because I’m not “a real prog fan”. 😜
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Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

What about "in the flesh?" by Pink Floyd. That's some pretty miked up drums maybe. Lol.
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Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

When the Levee Breaks sounds more like delay than gating to me.

I believe that was a joke at AFLowerKingCrimson’s expense, rather than a serious suggestion. 😃
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Points: 18523 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 12:25
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Oh for crying out loud. Listen to the song you guys before saying it wasn't gated reverb. I'm referring to the Tubes. 


I thought we had already agreed to disagree, so I have no need to listen. I might well hear something that sounds like gated reverb - but that doesn’t mean it is gated reverb. I think that is the problem - as I’ve already stated in a previous comment. Because you can hear something that sounds similar, you are confusing it for the same thing.



You didn't listen to the song. That says it all right there. If you can say after listening it definitely isn't that's one thing but you didn't even listen to it. But yeah, maybe it isn't. I can admit I might be wrong. 
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