Ok. Which is superior ? |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I cannot speak for Floyd fanboys in general because at least outside this board, I know this opinion which I am about to state is not necessarily very popular among Floydians. But I personally never saw the fuss about WYWH. I mean it's a very, very good album, beautiful melodies and all but I never saw it as the undeniable masterpiece it is often made out to be. And I really don't like Floyd moving out of pyschedelic noise and trying to write structured blues 'jams' (I put jams in single quotes exactly because it's way too structured to evoke the feeling of a jam). And then the second part seems to be trying to evoke jazz rock/fusion and it's even more boring for me. If I wanted a blues jam, I would listen to Allman Brothers. I would listen to the wonderful Gary Moore-BB King jam on Thrill Is Gone that's up on YouTube and which every lover of guitar should listen to at least once. If I wanted JR/F, I would listen to Mahavishnu or RTF, even Di Meola solo. Floyd comes across as too tame when they attempt this. Actually, much more so than DSOTM, it is WYWH which comes across as gateway prog for me. Like In Absentia era PT, it is very comforting and melodic, and also very safe. And the longish lengths make it feel like it's prog but it's only about as prog as Child In Time or Stairway To Heaven. So overall, no, I prefer the succinctness and punch of Dark Side anyday. Lyrically too, there is a lot of waxing over Syd on WYWH which is nice but also lacks the broad sweep of Dark Side as well as the latter's more bitter outlook. Notice how many songs on Dark Side concern death or a path that leads to death. Lyrically, Dark Side is way more hard hitting, at least for me. Hard hitting lyrics is the chief attraction of Animals. And the concept overall is very coherent too which does make it a much harder choice between Animals and Dark Side for me. But musically, I find Pigs VERY rambling and Sheep too a little rambling with Dogs being the only one that works in totality for me. So again, the brevity of DSOTM works for me. Basically, I don't think Floyd should have attempted epics or mini epics after Echoes. That was their best and they were never going to top that. I am sympathetic to Animals because Floyd came out swinging with all these long tracks in the peak of punk and because the lyrics were too hard hitting to be dismissed as airy-fairy out of touch prog, critics were put in a fix. But as an overall listening experience, no, I still don't think it gets up to DSOTM. The Wall comes closest until it falters a little towards the end. The problem with Wall is every song is wedded tightly to the narrative to the point that the ones towards the end like Trial do not work outside the context of the concept. Whereas on Dark Side, the concept is broader rather than being about a specific person's story and the songs standalone have a lot to say. |
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Sacro_Porgo
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2057 |
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I am a decent Floyd fan (Meddle and onwards, not super familiar with the early stuff) and I doubt DSOTM ever drops below number 2 for me. Wish You Were Here is the one I've always struggled to connect with. At times its great, and at others its just kind of boring.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12732 |
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Floyd is my #1 band, and indeed I place Wish you were Here and Animals over Dark Side... I even like The Division Bell over Dark Side. But I won't really argue if, specially within non prog rock lists or polls, Dark Side comes first. It is indeed an special achievement as an album, and as a concept album, and about attention to detail. |
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The Anders
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 02 2019 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 3529 |
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I'd pick Dark Side at any time. I find it one of the most accomplised and intriguing rock albums ever made, both in terms of songwriting, concept, sonic texture and general musical and artistic wholeness.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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If anybody feels insulted, I apologise? Sp?...and perhaps I don't particularly like the beatles...but you have misunderstood my position as Floyd is concerned...I love some floyd, Echoes, SOYCD and Animals is possibly in my top 100 symphonic prog releases...sure, they are a long way behind Genesis, Yes, Camel, IQ, FK's, ELP and a few others..😁 but hey , surely even Floyd fanboys must place DSOTM below the two releases that follow it? Or am I mistaken? Again PEACE with my prog brothers... |
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Sacro_Porgo
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2057 |
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DSOTM is an album I will never consider overrated. If it's someone's favorite Floyd album, or even favorite album in general, I wouldn't bat an eye. I think it's a great choice. But for me, Foxtrot means just a little bit more. I wouldn't call it significantly "better" by any stretch of the imagination (in fact DSOTM is probably at least better produced), but it's my high water mark for great prog albums. It's got everything I could want. The fantastic opener, captivating lyrics, magical sound, folk and hard rock influences, ensnaring melodies, a variety of moods, and Supper's Ready! That album art is wonderful too.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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A Bard
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 17 2020 Location: Florida ,USA Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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I have to say Foxtrot because i could never get into DSOTM.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
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Not really. He doesn't like the Beatles and he doesn't like Floyd, so what can he do but agree.
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43717 |
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it's like you want him to throw more insults at us
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SteveG
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Well, you're missing out on a cornucopia of prog right there, I am telling you. If you have those LPs/CDs, use the covid break to get acquainted with them.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Ah, well I have six Gentle Giant CD's in my back catalogue cupboard...for some reason I have not listened to them, or maybe the occaisional track after reading on here about it...none "stuck" snd similar to KC and VDGG have yet to resonate and become part of my prog canon...maybe one day...it took me a while to get into Yes in the late 70's so we shall see..
PEACE...and avoid the covid19 everybody... Edited by M27Barney - April 08 2020 at 01:04 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I suppose then that most of Gentle Giant is just pop seeing as their tracks rarely go beyond the average late Beatles 3/4 minute length?
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14742 |
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richardh: But Floyd had a history of shorter and more accessible songs already. They had done Obscured by Clouds not long before, and much of the first side of Meddle is also of this kind. And then Pink Floyd had not evolved very "naturally" before. The second album of Ummagamma was weird, AHM was very special, Obscured by Clouds was then totally different; they liked change in these days. I read that Waters had wanted to do a concept album earlier, for Dark Side the others finally could agree. There were always different facets to what they wanted to do, but then they wanted their albums to have some consistency in themselves, so they changed quite a bit from album to album. So I can get and respect why you think it's overrated, but I don't think, and I don't see any indication that it is a "deception", anything else than the music they really liked and wanted to do at the time.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Online Points: 13063 |
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You know, the further you post the more evident it becomes that you clearly lack historical context and have only the vaguest inkling of musical composition based on an impenetrably dense adherence to a bafflingly stilted Berlin Wall of prog/not prog. In any case a direct quote from Roine Stolt: "My early influences were The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix,The Doors and Procol Harum." Even more humorously, you can hear Beatles' influence throughout Stolt's work. He's even recorded Beatles songs. Stop, Just stop. Before you hurt yourself.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Online Points: 28054 |
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I suppose prog generally failed to connect with the masses because it either had weird abstract concepts that no one could understand or was just too technical and 'instrumental' like ELP. Floyd were a bit like that (Meddle) and then suddenly became very accessible. It wasn't a very natural evolution and still sounds like a very clever and successful attempt to gain wider appeal. I do mostly see it as a 'deception' because I don't hear anything especially inspired despite the fact they spent a whole year on it .That seemed to almost add an extra mythology to it that was about 'hype' more than reality. Yes it was an album that 'connected' with many because it was all about us as humans and for sure it has not dated as badly as many albums . It still has relevance but none of that makes its particularly interesting to me. I even get annoyed with the idea that On The Run was a great technically innovative piece but what is that based on exactly? On the whole it can be viewed as a complete concept and is well put together and perhaps more than the sum of its parts. I'm not convinced that if by 1973 people were not listening to more complex prog I doubt they suddenly jumped into it. I might even have been the album that turned many off prog and a slippery slope to more commercial orientated prog. Ironically though Floyd didn't follow that pattern and seemed to find themselves at odds with those looking for more 'simplistic' stuff like DSOTM!
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Aye. Spelling was never my strongest subject and I have an inbuilt mancunian emnity for all scouse err...culture?? I have always refused to be brainwashed by the mass media and especially the music press and the commercial imperitive that is definately anti prog....the three minute sound bite to make money...give me a rambling Stolt guitar solo every time I don the sennheisers. Rather than a fookin tepid boy meets girl pointless catchy tune....and yes the pan heads can have their riot in a music shop as well...better than Hey Jude in that its designed NOT to be commercial, I fookin hate Lennon n McCartney...musical whores...
Edited by M27Barney - April 07 2020 at 13:41 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Yeah, right, because boy bands write songs like Because all the time and Lou Pearlmann was the greatest genius since Bach. Whatever. If anything, your stance is even more superficial than the sheeple you accuse of falling for marketing. You TOTALLY judge an album by its cover alone and mistake a lack of overt weirdness for pop music as if there is no middle ground at all.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Well you may have thrown your knickers at the fab four and screamed till you were sick...but I think they were the first boy-band....the model for the monkies and take that....nothing more, aye the king is stark bollock naked y'all... |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35886 |
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Oh, I gotcha. I'm glad I asked cause that is interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain. People concoct wild reasons and strange conspiracies to justify their opinions, to justify their sense of what should or they would like to be true, and to generally justify their tastes quite often. Like my signature says "They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views..." Or they construct straw men, various arguments on shaky ground, as well as coming up with all manner of assumptions and speculations to justify the views. People concoct all manner of things to support their world views (even on the most seemingly trivial of matters), even if it's objectively built like a house of cards on very shaky foundations. And related to this, people are often not comfortable admitting that they don't know things. As Bertrand Russel said "“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that ... the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." A lot of it comes down to insecurity. EDIT: oops, had missed the quotes being doubled-up. Edited by Logan - April 07 2020 at 21:19 |
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