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micky 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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 Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:13 |
Nope... I don't see that.... look at the control of the House. In actuality the weighted vote of smaller red states count more than heavily populated Blue States. Look no further than my dear Virginia.. a blue state now... so how would proportional voting (say on congressional districts like Ne and Me do)go..  
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65684
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:11 |
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^ Interesting ideas -
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:09 |
Yes, it's broken. Yes, it can be fixed.
Needless to say this would be a very very difficult, realistically probably impossible, task but of course it can be done. It would just require our will to do so, after discussion and debate and etc like I said, in reality this is most certainly never happening.
Me personally? A proportional voting, 3+ party system, something done about extreme/political gerrymandering and far more open primaries. Either allowing independents in, letting them change to a party day of, something along those lines. Primaries should all be video recorded, and fully staffed. This sounds almost dumb...but it's true. The stories like 80% of Iowa precincts (or whatever it was) not being fully staffed, the 100,000+ in Brooklyn denied because they were backlogged on registration all these places not having enough ballots, pure shameful lunacy. The 60 voting stations for a 4 million person county, causing 5 hour lines? Yeah no more of that.
This is for the voting process of course. For politics itself, the $ influence involved has to be removed. How on earth this could happen, no idea. Hopefully some of the above ideas, which while difficult could be done, would go a long way.
Trying to keep things somewhat realistic. While I am for abolishing the electoral college, I see this as perhaps the most improbably feat, and ya know things have worked well for a long time with it, so it's less necessary to me to see it removed. That said I am on paper, for it.
Edited by JJLehto - August 28 2016 at 21:11
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:07 |
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Well I disagree that the EC is beautiful and that it hurts the Republician party. The EC favors smaller states which are ones that typically vote Republician, if we had proportional voting, it's likely the Republicians would have even slimmer chances
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65684
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:05 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:04 |
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just talking Feel free to disagree...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:03 |
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Are you responding to anyone or just talking
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:01 |
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the American political system is a beautiful thing.. and the E.C fits right into that.
It will force the Republican Party.. which in case I have been obtuse in my thoughts.. is the real problem and danger facing this country... it will force it to moderate and lose the hate and division.. or become a permanent minority out of power party.
f**k with.. or eliminate the E.C... there would be no reason to do so.. they could hope to win a plurality vote.
It will force the Replican Party to change... or die. Either will make for a better country...
the E.C was never a problem until one of the two major parties making itself an afterthought at the national level by alienating fully 40% of the country. Thus gettting close to.. and will soon reach.. where one party has a near lock on 270 before a single vote is cast. Don't blame the system.. again.. blame the voter.. blame the party that the voters support.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:54 |
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Personally, as a socialist I don't think the system we have now needs "fixing" because it is working the way it should. To blame the population for being "too ignorant" to somehow fix it by "voting in their own favor" or whatever is pure classism. The only way to see any fundamental change is if we were to change the underlying capitalist system that our political system upholds.
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:52 |
 rogerthat wrote:
For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic. It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other. Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.
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Actually the EC is problematic but for the exact opposite reason
Edited by Luna - August 28 2016 at 20:52
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:45 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:44 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:39 |
rogerthat wrote:
micky wrote:
those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?
Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher. Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...
It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.
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So, in effect, in spite of Trump's low ratings on what do you call it approval/likability, you fear he would win in a no holds barred race. Seriously, Micky, it pains me to see that in the world's oldest democracy, the politicians don't trust the voters. We did that here from day 1. You can say, "Well, look where that got you" but our system not being so elitist was an antidote against completely neglecting the poor and the downtrodden. Everyone should have a voice. If you really are a democracy, you have to listen to everyone, including the most racist and bigoted of them. Suppressing the will of the people for too long will only have repercussions in the end. Or maybe it won't because I suspect the US is ultimately a CIA state. |
of course I would fear he could win.. not an electoral college win. The deck is stacked in the Democrats favor... thanks to the Republican Party not caring one bit for anything other than appealing to Nativists, bigots, racists, Fundies, and the politically ignorant/uniformed. however take out the E.C... all bets are off.... it is a safeguard against the ignorance of the voter. The Founding Fathers saw it then..and 200 odd years later.. it is still around.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65684
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:38 |
micky wrote:
@ David
that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..
my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.
you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.
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Of course it's the voter, that was my point. It always has been and will be the voter, it's just that the truth is unpleasant. On the other hand if people like a Nixon or a Reagan or even a Trump, that is their independent choice. So be it. You get what you ask for. Oh yes indeed.
Edited by Atavachron - August 28 2016 at 20:40
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:35 |
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@ David
that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..
my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.
you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.
Edited by micky - August 28 2016 at 20:36
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:32 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:30 |
micky wrote:
those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?
Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher. Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...
It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.
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So, in effect, in spite of Trump's low ratings on what do you call it approval/likability, you fear he would win in a no holds barred race. Seriously, Micky, it pains me to see that in the world's oldest democracy, the politicians don't trust the voters. We did that here from day 1. You can say, "Well, look where that got you" but our system not being so elitist was an antidote against completely neglecting the poor and the downtrodden. Everyone should have a voice. If you really are a democracy, you have to listen to everyone, including the most racist and bigoted of them. Suppressing the will of the people for too long will only have repercussions in the end. Or maybe it won't because I suspect the US is ultimately a CIA state.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65684
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:22 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:20 |
rogerthat wrote:
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct. |
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
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For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic. It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other. Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.
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those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented? Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher. Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino... It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.
Edited by micky - August 28 2016 at 20:21
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:15 |
A Person wrote:
micky wrote:
Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington. For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many . Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct. |
How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
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ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right. That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want. Still upset over Bernie? Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide... sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off. sorry man.. blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate... thus the mess we have. The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point. A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The American Political System: Can It Be Fixed?
it is an unpleasant truth.. as it the necessity in foresight perhaps till this particular election 200+ years later hahaha.. of the Electoral College. It was put there to protect this country just for cases like 2016 for voters, their candidates... and major parties like we have in 2016. 