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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:09
Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.
 
It wasn't obvious. But I'll leave it at one quote. Wink

What exactly are you trying to do here, get this thread back on topic or something?
 
I don't know, seems like you and I just killed it anyway.
 
Anyhow, socialism is not Bolshevism, derp derp derp, I'll be back as soon as somebody uses the word 'totalitarian'.

We need more quote pyramids to revitalize this thread. Tongue

But seriously the people who go "socialism, socialism, socialism, socialism, braak, braaak, braaaak", for the most part are ill informed.

Edited by Slartibartfast - March 26 2009 at 13:26
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:09
And most people don't know dick about Communism either, at least not what Marx wrote about it.

PROTIP: you don't have to live in communes.
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:08
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



At some point you have to recognize the power of "Stop bitching and work harder to get what you want."  It's a fairly proven method.


I have some reading you need to do but probably won't:

Bait and Switch

 Bait and Switch: The (Futile) Pursuit of the American Dream
Paperback now available!
Metropolitan Books

Bait and Switch highlights the people who’ve done everything right -- gotten college degrees, developed marketable skills, and built up impressive résumés -- yet have become repeatedly vulnerable to financial disaster, and not simply due to the vagaries of the business cycle.

Nickel and Dimed

 Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America
May 2001
Metropolitan Books

Millions of Americans work for poverty-level wages, and one day Barbara Ehrenreich decided to join them. She was inspired in part by the rhetoric surrounding welfare reform, which promised that any job equals a better life.




Someone made a response book to Nickel and Dimed. Point is, she just wasn't trying hard enough.
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:05
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Most thinking Christians do support a socialist based ideology.
 
 
 


For church, maybe (which is run on voluntary donations, not taxes).

I think your statement is a terrible over-generalization, by the way.  (Most Christians I know- and I know many- are staunch fiscal conservatives).
 
Your statement points out the fact that socialism is a logical consequence of the Christian faith. You're right and most Christians know it. It was actually taught straight from the pulpit in the small town church I grew up in.
 
The voluntary part is important, but  it depends on people actually then taking the social burdens upon themselves. Religious organizations do this more than any other in the country. Whether or not they trust the government to effectively do this varies, but the ideal is the still very socialist. The sublimation of the individual wants and even needs for the good of the other and the all.
 
BTW, I don't self-identify as Christian anymore, but I haven't rejected it either.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

You know, you could get an MBA, work your way up and become a CEO and make millions.  Nobody's stopping you.


Tell that to everyone in the world. In capitalism, not everyone can be a CEO. There have to be people to be pissed on. That's why pure capitalism is cover-my-eyes scary ass f**k.
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Leningrad View Drop Down
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Points: 7991 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:01
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.
 
It wasn't obvious. But I'll leave it at one quote. Wink

What exactly are you trying to do here, get this thread back on topic or something?
 
I don't know, seems like you and I just killed it anyway.
 
Anyhow, socialism is not Bolshevism, derp derp derp, I'll be back as soon as somebody uses the word 'totalitarian'.
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:58
Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.
 
It wasn't obvious. But I'll leave it at one quote. Wink

What exactly are you trying to do here, get this thread back on topic or something?


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 26 2009 at 13:28
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Leningrad View Drop Down
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Points: 7991 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:56
Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.
 
It wasn't obvious. But I'll leave it at one quote. Wink
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:54
Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.


Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.


Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko  I was making a joke.
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.





Edited by Slartibartfast - March 26 2009 at 13:03
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:53
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Most thinking Christians do support a socialist based ideology.
 
 
 


For church, maybe (which is run on voluntary donations, not taxes).

I think your statement is a terrible over-generalization, by the way.  (Most Christians I know- and I know many- are staunch fiscal conservatives).
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:52
Despots can take over any social system if the conditions are right.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 17240 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:51
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Most thinking Christians do support a socialist based ideology.
 
 
 
 
Clap
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Points: 7991 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:50
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko
 
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:49
Most thinking Christians do support a socialist based ideology.
 
 
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:48
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

In Sweden you're given a government "allowance" each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra.

The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is.

Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this?


The US has a similar system (but is tailored more for those who have less).  It's called FAFSA, The Pell Grant, and Sallie Mae (for loans).



Is it effective?


I would say that for the most part, it's a good system (maybe too much unnecessary paperwork), and helps the less fortunate obtain a college education (the loans are low interest also, and don't have to be repaid until after graduation).
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:48
Originally posted by Leningrad Leningrad wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.
 
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.
 
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.
 
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.
 
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.
 
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.

OK, now I'm completely confused.Wacko
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

In Sweden you're given a government paid "salary"  each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra.

The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is.

Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this?


Wish we had that system. We did once. Then Blair (IIRC) broke it.

One rather neat point I've heard on that one is that those studying and getting degrees are going to be earning more and thus providing more taxable income anyway... the lack of proper government subsidy in that area isn't doing them any favours.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



If our education system is any indication of the government's managerial skills, then they should stay out of business.


The quality of our educational system is entirely dependent on the wealth of your neighborhood.


hahahhah Clap  and if the government even tried to intrude on that uniquely local govenment responsibility....  oh how the people on the right would cry socialism LOL


huh?  They already do!  The Department of Education has something like a $70 billion budget!


oh hardly....  if that was anything more than a drop in the bucket as to what the real costs of education and who manages education... the local level.. county city state...we wouldn't have the inequality of education ...at the public level we do.  You know that Pat...  your quality of education depends on where you live... hat is the result of local taxes.. which in turn pay for education.


Edited my original post too late:  I'm just arguing that the federal government already does have a hand and a say in education - No Child Left Behind had had a massive effect on virtually every school system in the country.  Of course it's still mostly a local control.

Obviously there's high correlation between poor neighborhoods and bad schools, particularly in the inner cities, but simply throwing money at those schools won't fix the problem either - the problems are more systemic than lack of funds in a lot of cases.
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:45
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



If our education system is any indication of the government's managerial skills, then they should stay out of business.


The quality of our educational system is entirely dependent on the wealth of your neighborhood.


hahahhah Clap  and if the government even tried to intrude on that uniquely local govenment responsibility....  oh how the people on the right would cry socialism LOL


huh?  They already do!  The Department of Education has something like a $70 billion budget!

No Child Left Behind?  That's a massive federal "intrusion" on school systems.


Teaching here is for sh*t anyway (I know).

As an English teacher I have to have:

-A 4 year degree
-A teaching certificate (which requires 3 passing grades on tests WE have to pay for)
-300 training hours of ESOL (teaching students who don't speak English as a primary language- that's another can of worms I won't go into right now)
-6 completed courses in teaching reading
-ON TOP OF various unpaid assigned trainings throughout the year

All this, including actually teaching, creating lesson plans, grading papers / assignments, attending staff meetings, parental meetings, proctoring tests, and completing paperwork as it arises.

All this for $36,000.

And make no mistake- 90% of the training is worthless.  Seriously.  Only about ten percent of the trainings I've ever attended have been helpful (and many other teachers wholeheartedly agree with me on this).  Many of the trainings are conducted by people who haven't stood in the front of a classroom in 30 years.
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Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:45
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

In Sweden you're given a government "allowance" each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra.

The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is.

Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this?


Don, I don't know if the system in Sweden is the same as in Finland, but if it is, you forgot to say that you have to pass a test in order to be admitted to study at university (something that rarely happens in Italy). If you fail, you're sure not to be given anything.


You don't have to pass a test. Acceptance is based on grades. You can take a test, but it's mostly meritorious, and can give you an edge against even high grades students who haven't taken the test if you do well. 
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