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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:15
I suspect that this generation will be remembered as the generation that was offended by everything. Every generation needs a cause, something to get angry about that is unique to them, and this is the first generation that hasn't got one. Part of the reason for this is all the previous generations' causes never got resolved, they may have changed the World a little bit, but all the social and environmental injustices that united each generation persist to this day. So now we have a generation that can pick any cause they like and they can be anti- this, that and the other, but they are all tainted by a pallor of cynicism and doubt. As if the small gains of the past are seen as not minor victories but major failings, in that whatever actions the previous generations took in their particular cause célèbre were either ineffectual or poorly aimed. It is as though the earlier generations were not offended enough so this generation has to be more offended.

Edited by Dean - November 11 2015 at 04:29
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:12
Oh I can't stand politics--  it drives a wedge between people faster than any religion or philosophy.   Just look at this thread.   I have strong views and feelings but politics with a capital 'P' is the worst.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:09
It's in large part because of what happened to her that I'm so disturbed by belligerent left-wing rhetoric: I hear and see so much of it on a daily basis, and I know that it has quite a few very real very ugly consequences that get systematically covered up by those news media that lean left.

Maybe it's because my real-life social circle is such a left-wing echo chamber, but the few people I know who lean right are some of the most openminded and skilled debaters I've ever encountered - even though I often don't understand their worldviews or think they reason from some very misguided ideas.

I say this as someone who has in practice promoted mostly traditional left-wing causes, but I find left-wing culture so overtly dysfunctional that I'm no longer politicallly active. (as to be expected, I find right-wing political culture to be messed up in very different - though probably more insidious - ways)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:42
^ The thing is, the New Hip Moderates are going to have to start realizing that progressives are on the rise, and it has little to do with anything like Obama or Bernie.  It is the U.S. Left's moment in the sun and for a long while to come.   And frankly after Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush l & ll and assorted other empathy-challenged and ethically-bankrupt persons, it's about time.

Sorry all you cool guys who assume you're on top of things; all instant media-savvied and informed, utterly out of touch with the nature of human sociopolitical motion, sure to criticize things you don't really know about or understand, making snap judgements based on what is almost always inaccurate reporting and documentation.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:28
I do think that this kind of harassing behaviour is something way too many people on the political left give a free pass to as long as it happens to their political opponents, though, or just ignore because of the media bubble they live in filtering out anything that casts their side in a bad light. Believe it or not: The only of my exes who's right-wing actually receives at least as much misogynistic hate mail when she participates in political debate on the internet as women of the left do, to the point she had to delete her Facebook profile a couple years ago because of it (and she's not alone), so it really annoys both of us when left-of-centre commentators frame that as something only right-wingers do.

Edited by Toaster Mantis - November 11 2015 at 03:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:13
^ Nice to see there are some truly independent thinkers out there who don't get so caught-up in their own philosophy that they can't see reality.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:04
Scott Alexander, a blogger who's been a sharp critic of the more toxic aspects of modern left-wing culture in large part because he's a former right-libertarian before turning left and as a result used to be on the receiving end of constant harassment from left-wing activists, has already mounted a counter-argument against that article and others like it. He finds articles like Conor Friedersdorf's suspicious, because they often take issue with the (in Alexander's view) least objectionable aspects of modern social justice activism, and are often coming from established high-ranking academics who are not that much at threat from activists.

The relevant quote:

Quote
The only thing that elite SJ-criticism is really willing to take on is trigger warnings, which happen to be one of the pieces of social justice I really like and have defended at length.

I lost the link, but someone compared the coverage of two recent social justice scandals. First, users on Tumblr bullied a fan-artist to the point where she attempted suicide, because she drew a cartoon character too thin and so was “erasing fat people” – and these users continue to defend their actions and say that anyone who objects doesn’t understand that you can’t fight structural oppression without breaking some eggs. Second, some students at Yale got angry at an administrator who said she wasn’t going to enforce cultural sensitivity on Halloween costumes, and yelled and threw stuff at her and her family.

I feel for anybody who gets yelled at and has stuff thrown at them, but the first of these two stories seems by far the most important; lots of teenagers commit suicide every year because of bullying, the idea that somebody deserves to die because they picture a cartoon character differently is abominable, and anyone who’s been on the relevant parts of the Internet knows this kind of thing is common as dirt. If I were a news editor, I’d consider the first study a much bigger deal.

Instead, the second has gone viral in the national media, and the first remains stuck among the same few second-tier sites and SJ-critical nobody bloggers whom these kinds of things are always stuck among.


The comments field is long as hell, but it actually has Conor Friedersdorf dropping in to argue with Scott Alexander.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:09
Okay -

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:07
You started with the circular arguments, resorting to 'reality bites' when I pointed out that in earlier times, even this courtesy may not have been afforded to students.  Sorry, David, I respect your contributions to this website and various forum discussions but you are completely off the rocker today.  I am just going to say it out flat and I am sure I am not the only one who felt so in this discussion.  Maybe you can pause, take a deep breath and read back what you wrote at a later stage.  Or maybe not, the choice is yours because, hey, I am not a modern, intolerant, militant, easily offended liberal.  But I am done with this topic because my day is just getting to the half way mark and I have things to do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:00
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.   

Ermm  How is that contradictory?
Of course it is.  If you have no objection to the students using whatever mode of protest they see fit to vent their anger, what's wrong with a bunch of people commenting on the news story about it?  For reasons best known to yourself, you give the impression of going to great lengths to shield the students from criticism, urging everyone not to judge them even though one of the students actually called the prof disgusting, a highly judgmental thing to say.

That's a circular argument if I've ever heard one.  If you want to play that game, ask yourself why you so strongly object to my stance.  We could do that all night, y'know?






Edited by Atavachron - November 11 2015 at 01:01
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:51
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.   

Ermm  How is that contradictory?


Of course it is.  If you have no objection to the students using whatever mode of protest they see fit to vent their anger, what's wrong with a bunch of people commenting on the news story about it?  For reasons best known to yourself, you give the impression of going to great lengths to shield the students from criticism, urging everyone not to judge them even though one of the students actually called the prof disgusting, a highly judgmental thing to say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:46
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.   

Ermm  How is that contradictory?

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:46
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation. 

Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love.

Ah, when one becomes one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:42
I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.  Um, exactly how is internet not a part of the same reality?  So...the reality is that perhaps a parent on these students is a prog rock fan and reading this topic and feeling his/her blood boil at the things said about precious.  Well, fair dinkum, huh.  If something goes viral, any tom, dick and harry can express an opinion on it.  And now, there's now college admin to complain to to stop them from doing so.  Which is why the professor's advice was perhaps more sage than you give it credit for.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:39
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
Indeed, in older times, perhaps the professor wouldn't have had the proverbial Damocles sword of media outrage hanging over his head because it's Yale and simply refused to suffer these students politely.  He was trying too hard to be nice to them when he could have simply said it's Halloween and you guys sort it out between yourselves and don't bother me about it again.  Nor should he be.  Unless anybody got ragged or bullied during the Halloween party, unless anybody actually got denied entry into the party on account of their race, the professor shouldn't be involved at all.  

His wife's mistake may have been to open the discourse in the first place when she could have simply toed the line laid out by the Yale establishment and stayed right out of the mess.  And then may be get called a bureaucrat for that but she could have saved her backside that way.

Well yeah, in a way, that's exactly right.  And even though that seems a trivial and simplistic observation, it's fairly on the money.  Reality is what it is, and if we ignore it will bite us hard on the ass


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:38
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation. 

Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:37
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation. 

Edited by Polymorphia - November 11 2015 at 00:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:35
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.




Indeed, in older times, perhaps the professor wouldn't have had the proverbial Damocles sword of media outrage hanging over his head because it's Yale and simply refused to suffer these students politely.  He was trying too hard to be nice to them when he could have simply said it's Halloween and you guys sort it out between yourselves and don't bother me about it again.  Nor should he be.  Unless anybody got ragged or bullied during the Halloween party, unless anybody actually got denied entry into the party on account of their race, the professor shouldn't be involved at all.  

His wife's mistake may have been to open the discourse in the first place when she could have simply toed the line laid out by the Yale establishment and stayed right out of the mess.  And then may be get called a bureaucrat for that but she could have saved her backside that way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:28
^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.





Edited by Atavachron - November 11 2015 at 00:29
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:27
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Emails are one of the mediums of modern debate and protest.   Flickering light on a screen is no less powerful than any other mode of communication.   Television has proved that over and over again.
All it is is communication. Which can include verbal abuse, but that was not present here. I was contrasting with the atrocities that prompted the more extreme measures of the Civil Rights movement. 

The way these students are reacting to simple ideas is counterproductive. It can act as a form of punishment for anybody who expresses ideas that are different from their own. And if those with different ideas do not express those ideas, they cannot be persuaded otherwise, unless they come across a persuasive argument themselves, nor can their valid ones be heard if they have them. It suffocates any kind of discourse on the subject. 

The faculty member went specifically to hear the students' opinions and to explain his own. What he got was not at all any sort of discourse, but punishment.
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