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CCVP 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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 Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:55 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Encarceration and law enforcement is not the way to treat a social and health problem. It never was and never will. |
One question, according to most psychiatrists, pedophilia is a psycho-sexual health problem...Do you believe pedophiles shouldn't be sent to prison?
If you believe they should (As I hope you do)...Wouldn't you be sending to prison a sick person?
Iván
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Iván, that is a long and complicated contemporary social issue man. Not untill some decades ago the consent age in many western countries was around 10 years of age for women and in most countries in Europe the age of consent is still around that. Again, due to American false morality we are being enforced to create false walls and crimes out of f**king there was nothing to be criminalized against, at least culturally. I do believe sex offendors should be arrested, and attacking a child sexually IS an offence, BUT there is much more to that than just it. If you mean pedophile as someone who sexually assaults young women and men, then I agree with you, the law MUST me enforced. If you mean people that have sexual atraction by children, then the question is much deeper than a yes or no question.
Edited by CCVP - January 16 2011 at 21:55
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:54 |
timothy leary wrote:
A fun thread to read, love the ones who deny using it but know so much about it
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You are aware the site does not allow promotion of illegal drug use, right? And admitting you do it is basically tacit promotion. No matter the difference, I do smoke marijuana occasionally. I don't make a big deal about it. No one's winning cool points for it anymore because it's practically normal to smoke pot. Nothing to see here let's get on with our lives.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:54 |
Just in case CCVP...I don't say the consumer should be criminalize, I agree with you there.
The person who sells it and make profit should.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:50 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What? What are you talking about? Those aren't answers. I don't even know what they mean. Without prohibition there is no black market. Could you attempt to explain. Maybe answer my questions. |
Of course there is, they will sell it cheaper, in any amount you want , to minors without restrictions and with less risks, and if the business goes weak, they will start selling harder drugs in a higher amount.
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
How would it be easier for minors to get it? The ease of a minor acquiring pot right now is the same as acquiring a pack of cigarettes. Also, that's absurd. Any cost is good? Resources are limited. If it requires you to divert all resources from law enforcement into drug enforcement to protect minors, you would be allowing murders a free ride. So there is a limit. |
They have to pay much more and take the risk of buying an illegal product
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I didn't elect my Congressmen. They don't listen to the public. They don't listen to the law. |
Even if you didn't voted, you have to accept what they decide, if you don't like them, vote for another alternative.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:45 |
CCVP wrote:
Encarceration and law enforcement is not the way to treat a social and health problem. It never was and never will. |
One question, according to most psychiatrists, pedophilia is a psycho-sexual health problem...Do you believe pedophiles shouldn't be sent to prison?
If you believe they should be sent to jail (As I hope you do)...Wouldn't you be sending a sick person to prison?
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 16 2011 at 21:51
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:43 |
CCVP wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
OK, so you smoke now?
Why? Do you enjoy it? Can you not stop physically?
You would not oppose a law saying you can't do something you do? Doesn't make sense, except that it's bad for you. In which case I need to ask why you would do it anyway knowing that. Choose between not doing it, or doing so but accepting the law.
What you said really does confuse me.
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I smoke because I'm addicted to nicotine.
And I find no contradiction, if the law says it's illegal, I would stop doing it, even if it causes me pleasure.
Iván |
OK Iván, but making nicotine-related material illegal would ever make you stop consuming cigarettes? I don't think so. Encarceration would not help too. That is the contradiction of substance prohibition.
Also, matt out of the f**king nowhere.
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Yeah, if it's made illegal Ivan you will stop? What if you can't? Or likewise, if it's never made illegal will you ever make an attempt to stop? I hope I don't offend...but do you make any choices or do everything based on whether or not it's legal? And have to agree with Pat and Matt, your answers are not even really answers and make even less sense then I do! I need to take a break from this thread and chill with some booze.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:41 |
JJLehto wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
OK, so you smoke now?
Why? Do you enjoy it? Can you not stop physically?
You would not oppose a law saying you can't do something you do? Doesn't make sense, except that it's bad for you. In which case I need to ask why you would do it anyway knowing that. Choose between not doing it, or doing so but accepting the law.
What you said really does confuse me.
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I smoke because I'm addicted to nicotine.
And I find no contradiction, if the law says it's illegal, I would stop doing it, even if it causes me pleasure.
Iván |
Well, I am impressed at your respect to the law.
So you smoke because you can't stop. Law has nothing to do with this in any way.
Also I do hope you can find the power to quit, though of course no one (and no law) will make you
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Never say that in front of me again bro.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:40 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
OK, so you smoke now?
Why? Do you enjoy it? Can you not stop physically?
You would not oppose a law saying you can't do something you do? Doesn't make sense, except that it's bad for you. In which case I need to ask why you would do it anyway knowing that. Choose between not doing it, or doing so but accepting the law.
What you said really does confuse me.
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I smoke because I'm addicted to nicotine.
And I find no contradiction, if the law says it's illegal, I would stop doing it, even if it causes me pleasure.
Iván |
Well, I am impressed at your respect to the law. So you smoke because you can't stop. Law has nothing to do with this in any way. Also I do hope you can find the power to quit, though of course no one (and no law) will make you
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:39 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
OK, so you smoke now?
Why? Do you enjoy it? Can you not stop physically?
You would not oppose a law saying you can't do something you do? Doesn't make sense, except that it's bad for you. In which case I need to ask why you would do it anyway knowing that. Choose between not doing it, or doing so but accepting the law.
What you said really does confuse me.
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I smoke because I'm addicted to nicotine.
And I find no contradiction, if the law says it's illegal, I would stop doing it, even if it causes me pleasure.
Iván |
OK Iván, but making nicotine-related material illegal would ever make you stop consuming cigarettes? I don't think so. Encarceration would not help too. That is the contradiction of substance prohibition. Also, matt out of the f**king nowhere.
Edited by CCVP - January 16 2011 at 21:41
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:39 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:39 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What does risk to society even mean? Who decides when it's too risky? |
The authorities elected by the people of a state or nation |
And that authority comes from where?
Ivan wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
How does criminalizing marijuana remove the problem to society? What about the costs of enforcing the prohibition? What about the unintended consequences resulting from a black market in marijuana? What about the effects that prohibitions have in increasing the potency of drugs and forcing consumers towards harder drugs? What about police corruption? |
The black market will continue, they would sell it cheaper or without any restriction....Plus the harder drugs market will continue exactly as it was before..
t would be easier for minors to get it, and in my opinion any economic cost to protect minors is good.
Iván
Edit: I'm not the one who will make marihuana legal or illegal, you have your Congressmen, write to them and they will decide, that's what you elected them for. |
[/quote]
What? What are you talking about? Those aren't answers. I don't even know what they mean. Without prohibition there is no black market. Could you attempt to explain. Maybe answer my questions.
How would it be easier for minors to get it? The ease of a minor acquiring pot right now is the same as acquiring a pack of cigarettes. Also, that's absurd. Any cost is good? Resources are limited. If it requires you to divert all resources from law enforcement into drug enforcement to protect minors, you would be allowing murders a free ride. So there is a limit.
I didn't elect my Congressmen. They don't listen to the public. They don't listen to the law.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:38 |
JJLehto wrote:
Yeah, pretty much Caio.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:35 |
JJLehto wrote:
OK, so you smoke now?
Why? Do you enjoy it? Can you not stop physically?
You would not oppose a law saying you can't do something you do? Doesn't make sense, except that it's bad for you. In which case I need to ask why you would do it anyway knowing that. Choose between not doing it, or doing so but accepting the law.
What you said really does confuse me.
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I smoke because I'm addicted to nicotine.
And I find no contradiction, if the law says it's illegal, I would stop doing it, even if it causes me pleasure.
Iván
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:35 |
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Yeah, pretty much Caio.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:32 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What does risk to society even mean? Who decides when it's too risky? |
The authorities elected by the people of a state or nation
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
How does criminalizing marijuana remove the problem to society? What about the costs of enforcing the prohibition? What about the unintended consequences resulting from a black market in marijuana? What about the effects that prohibitions have in increasing the potency of drugs and forcing consumers towards harder drugs? What about police corruption? |
The black market will continue, they would sell it cheaper or without any restriction....Plus the harder drugs market will continue exactly as it was before..
t would be easier for minors to get it, and in my opinion any economic cost to protect minors is good.
Iván
Edit: I'm not the one who will make marihuana legal or illegal, you have your Congressmen, write to them and they will decide, that's what you elected them for. If you don't like their laws, you can vote against them.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 16 2011 at 21:37
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:29 |
JJLehto wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Hanyou wrote:
But JJLehto, if you're not supposed to impose your morality on other people, who are you to say that people shouldn't be allowed to expose themselves to the risk of harder drugs? .
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Because when people become addicted, they turn into a problem for society.
People may say pot is harmless, but that's BS, I seen a lot of people who started with pot and ended living bellow a bridge (stealing of course) when marihuana wasn't enough
Iván |
Alcohol is a much larger problem and I don't see it being criminalized any time soon. In fact, if you made pot and cocaine legal, you would destroy the main source of income of the drug cartels.
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Another valid point! From Caio of all people 
Do you want alcohol to be illegal Ivan? Because we know for a fact it can be highly addictive, damaging, and can tear families apart and leave people as thieving bums on a street. It's legal and heavily advertised....
The gateway theory Ivan. OK, I'll give it to you. That CAN happen. But I'll counter your personal experience with my own. Major pot heads that function normally in society. Even major pot heads that went on to try shrooms, acid, ecstasy, even DMT. Would never touch cocaine or heroin in their lives.
Besides, potheads are filling jails in the US. Maybe if we got rid of all those people, some of that space can be used for those people you mentioned Ivan. As well as those committing more serious crimes.
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I actually studied this kind of thing for over two years so, I know a thing or two about drugs and the perversity if the penal system, on the USA and Brazil. And it really amuses me how the Americans make such a big deal out of something that is clearly not a problem. In fact, they literally created a problem for the whole f**king world. Cocaine was actually legal in Brazil and was sold in pharmacies untill the 1920 or 30's, when the Big Stick was making its way down to South America. The sh*t really hit the fan only 40 years later, but then it came full force. Besides, looking at a purely technical way, treating people with chemichal issues is cheaper than having criminals locked up in prisions where not only they will develop serious mental and social issues, but can only get a series of venerial diseases, normal untreatable diseases and will be forced to carry for the rest of their lives one of the biggest social stigmas that exist. Encarceration and law enforcement is not the way to treat a social and health problem. It never was and never will. It makes as much sense as aresting somebody because he is walking through the streets unemplyed, and that sh*t already existed in most of the civilized world, just not in AMERICA#1.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:26 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes it is, society has the right to protect itself.
Iván |
It does? That's strange since it's not a person. |
Of course, society is a community of persons who accept to live under determined laws.
Iván |
So it's not a person. WHat you mean is that someone in that society can defend themselves. But smoking marijuana does not harm anyone in the society, so there is no victim who needs to be defended.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:25 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Wait, even when you smoke tobacco you will agree it should be illegal?
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If it was made illegal, I would not oppose to the law.
And I know it's risky for my health.
Iván
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OK, so you smoke now? Why? Do you enjoy it? Can you not stop physically? You would not oppose a law saying you can't do something you do? Doesn't make sense, except that it's bad for you. In which case I need to ask why you would do it anyway knowing that. Choose between not doing it, or doing so but accepting the law. What you said really does confuse me.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:25 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
So you argument is that when people smoke pot they become a problem for society. |
I say some become
| Equality 7-2521You have no concept of personal freedom so I won't argue that point. But your solution is to criminalize the smoking, thus making everyone who smokes it a problem for society. |
Personal freedom ends when it's a risk for society
BTW; People who smoke are a problem for themselves, addiction to nicotine doesn't induce you to heavy drugs, but with the later limitations, I'm sure smoking will be illegal soon, and even when I smoke tobacco, I will agree.
Iván
What does risk to society even mean? Who decides when it's too risky?
How does criminalizing marijuana remove the problem to society? What about the costs of enforcing the prohibition? What about the unintended consequences resulting from a black market in marijuana? What about the effects that prohibitions have in increasing the potency of drugs and forcing consumers towards harder drugs? What about police corruption?
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What does risk to society even mean? Who decides when it's too risky?
How does criminalizing marijuana remove the problem to society? What about the costs of enforcing the prohibition? What about the unintended consequences resulting from a black market in marijuana? What about the effects that prohibitions have in increasing the potency of drugs and forcing consumers towards harder drugs? What about police corruption?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:22 |
JJLehto wrote:
Wait, even when you smoke tobacco you will agree it should be illegal?
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If it was made illegal, I would not oppose to the law.
And I know it's risky for my health.
Iván
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Should marijuana be legalized?
