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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:03 |
Epignosis wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
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How about a song reflecting the fallacies and contradictions of the Bible. Or does that offend? |
If there were any...
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Oh, please.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:59 |
While a strong opponent of religion (see my avatar), I have to say that religious inspiration has given mankind some of the absolute best musical pieces of all time... just listen to the works of JSBach, GFHandel (though more secular), Anton Bruckner, and countless others who took inspiration from their faith.
Yes, the question would be: "wouldn't they have composed those works anyway without religious inspiration?" The answer is: we will never know, and thank their god for inspiring them to create some of the absolute best music that has been created.
Now, in today's rock, I think both crazy religious fanatics and anti-religious madmen have the same right to preach. It's in my power to decide what sermon to listen. And HOW to listen to it.
In the end, if the music is good, they could be singing about the life and work of Jonah inside the whale that the piece would stull deserve a listen.
But, as Torman Maxt proves, that combination is rare.
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13416
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Very comfortable position, hidding those terrible words that would make hitler pale, and attacking other Church, well I understand it's harder to say "The catholic Church was bad but Luther wanted to vanmish the Jewishs from the face of the earth"
You say iot's hard to talk about Luther without attacking the catholic Church,n but seems very easy to attack the Catholic Church and hide Luther's history under the carpet.
Haver you ever heard a Catholic, Jewish or Moslem song attacking Luther?
Nope, we don't care at all, we don't loose our time hating those who some call brothers in christ or make evangelism through Rock.
Sorry, but that's the reason why I don't agree with Christian, Catholic or Jewish Rock if it does evangelism, they destroy the credibilty of music.
As Hank Hill said "Can’t you see you’re not making Christianity better, you’re just making rock n’ roll worse"
Iván |
I believe Neal when he says he didn't know about Luther's anti-Jewish stance because until i read that in the liner notes myself(and then looked it up on Wikipedia) i didn't know either.So maybe your right that that part of his life or character has been swept under the carpet.It was news to me. I've been thinking your too sensitive about it but maybe i've been too insensitive.Sorry.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 24283
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:48 |
Epignosis wrote:
Evangelism is telling the Good News of God's grace. That's what the word means.
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
After all, the whole book of Psalms is nothing but songs ultimately praising and honoring God...
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I have nothing to add to or withdraw from this statement.
Edited by someone_else - May 29 2009 at 13:49
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:44 |
Epignosis wrote:
Evangelism is telling the Good News of God's grace. That's what the word means.
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
After all, the whole book of Psalms is nothing but songs ultimately praising and honoring God...
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Amen! However, I can see how some could mistake singing the praises of the Lord for preaching. If you truly want to hear preaching in rock & roll, listen to Bob Dylan's Slow Train Coming. I myself prefer the allegorical approach of early King's X.
Edited by jimidom - May 29 2009 at 13:52
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13416
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:44 |
Epignosis wrote:
Evangelism is telling the Good News of God's grace. That's what the word means.
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
After all, the whole book of Psalms is nothing but songs ultimately praising and honoring God...
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:44 |
Evolver wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
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How about a song reflecting the fallacies and contradictions of the Bible. Or does that offend? | If there were any...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:28 |
Evolver wrote:
Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people." |
I like that character.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:22 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic.
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Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people."
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:19 |
While I find the lyrics of Morse's solo albums to be repetitive, dull, and largely uncreative, I also don't have any problem with listening to them. I'm not a Christian, though I used to think I was (and am probably more of one now that I don't think of myself as one, if that makes any sense, as my outlook is much more humble than it was back then).
My biggest issue then is really the sameness and lack of creativity I hear in so many of Neal's lyrics. Does Jesus have some problem with people getting creative with the Good News? Because it often seems that way to me. Plus, the guys in Glass Hammer are Christians but feel no need to write about it in their lyrics. Many of their lyrics reflect their beliefs in more subtle ways. I just find that putting spirituality into lyrics doesn't have to be an exercise in repeating the same things over and over and over again.
I also wonder just who Morse is writing these lyrics for? I suppose for God, because he isn't going to sway, or even attract the interest of, anyone who isn't already a firm believer like himself. I enjoy his music (except for much of the most recent album), and find the lyrics tolerable and unoffensive enough that I can appreciate his albums for what they are. But I really wish he'd get more creative with the lyrics (and actually, I liked ? primarily because he DID use actual scripture mixed in with his own lyrics and I think that album worked the best lyrically of all of them).
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:18 |
Epignosis wrote:
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
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How about a song reflecting the fallacies and contradictions of the Bible. Or does that offend?
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:16 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Imagine that...a Church being negative about another Church. Such a wonderful God to guide his flock into different beliefs. Russian roulette for the soul. |
It's not God who guides men into this path, because of free will, man decides what to do.
I remember my mentor in the University, the great theologist Father Francesco Interdonatto (SJ) told us that the Catholic who didn't respected a Mosque or a Sinagogue was not a Catholic, because Allah, the God of the Jewishs and the God of the Christians is the same one, the same God of Abraham.
Iván
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I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:41 |
Evangelism is telling the Good News of God's grace. That's what the word means.
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
After all, the whole book of Psalms is nothing but songs ultimately praising and honoring God...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:18 |
Very comfortable position, hidding those terrible words that would make hitler pale, and attacking other Church, well I understand it's harder to say "The catholic Church was bad but Luther wanted to vanmish the Jewishs from the face of the earth"
You say iot's hard to talk about Luther without attacking the catholic Church,n but seems very easy to attack the Catholic Church and hide Luther's history under the carpet.
Haver you ever heard a Catholic, Jewish or Moslem song attacking Luther?
Nope, we don't care at all, we don't loose our time hating those who some call brothers in christ or make evangelism through Rock.
Sorry, but that's the reason why I don't agree with Christian, Catholic or Jewish Rock if it does evangelism, they destroy the credibilty of music.
As Hank Hill said "Can’t you see you’re not making Christianity better, you’re just making rock n’ roll worse"
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 12:36
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13416
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:11 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Placing who on the equivalent of a saint? |
Maybe the word Saint is not perfect,because they deny the existence of saints, but this album is selling us the idea of a wonderful man that based his acts in God against the "corrupt·" Cathollic Church, but by own confession in the notes of the album Mr. Morse never included Luther's real feelings, of course he never mentions quotes that you can't say may passed by the head of Luther, but words he said.:
“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham’.”
- Martin Luther |
Of course this is not included in the album, only talks about the terrible Catholic Church, in the notes he mentions this sick anti semitism of Luther, but says something like he decided not to mention in the album, because Luther did great things (or something like that).
Yes the Catholic Church made terrible mistakes, but the Pope John Paul II asked for pardon to the people.
StyLaZyn wrote:
Imagine that...a Church being negative about another Church. Such a wonderful God to guide his flock into different beliefs. Russian roulette for the soul. |
It's not God who guides men into this path, because of free will, man decides what to do.
I remember my mentor in the University, the great theologist Father Francesco Interdonatto (SJ) told us that the Catholic who didn't respected a Mosque or a Sinagogue was not a Catholic, because Allah, the God of the Jewishs and the God of the Christians is the same one, the same God of Abraham.
Iván
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Neal found out after the album was finished that Martin Luther was anti-jewish and he debated if he should still release it but was encouraged to do so.I'm glad he did.I personally am an Isreal backer all the way.They're God's chosen people in my opinion.Do you want the story of Martin Luther censored? Because it's pretty hard to tell his story without making the Catholic church look bad.It's just history. By the way i have no doubt God guides people today, you don't have to rely on some person in their fancy clothes.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:08 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
^ Your mentor kicks some unbelievable ass Ivan. |
Yes,he was a great man, recognized as Great Theoligist by the Vatican, one of the hardest proffesors I had, he asked us not to study or memorize, but to understand.
He wore the same shirt all the semester, old but clean, used a motorcycle, I believe from WW II, gave classes all day, never absent even when dying on cancer, and still had time to play sports in the beach all summer, I heard he said that his place was with the sinners, but I honestly believe he just loved the beach.
Despite he was Italian (A big red faced man) he rests in a humble tomb in Peru that he loved so much.
Iván
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:29 |
^ Your mentor kicks some unbelievable ass Ivan.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:16 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Placing who on the equivalent of a saint? |
Maybe the word Saint is not perfect,because they deny the existence of saints, but this album is selling us the idea of a wonderful man that based his acts in God against the "corrupt·" Cathollic Church, but by own confession in the notes of the album Mr. Morse never included Luther's real feelings, of course he never mentions quotes that you can't say may passed by the head of Luther, but words he said.:
“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham’.”
- Martin Luther |
Of course this is not included in the album, only talks about the terrible Catholic Church, in the notes he mentions this sick anti semitism of Luther, but says something like he decided not to mention in the album, because Luther did great things (or something like that).
Yes the Catholic Church made terrible mistakes, but the Pope John Paul II asked for pardon to the people.
StyLaZyn wrote:
Imagine that...a Church being negative about another Church. Such a wonderful God to guide his flock into different beliefs. Russian roulette for the soul. |
It's not God who guides men into this path, because of free will, man decides what to do.
I remember my mentor in the University, the great theologist Father Francesco Interdonatto (SJ) told us that the Catholic who didn't respected a Mosque or a Sinagogue was not a Catholic, because Allah, the God of the Jewishs and the God of the Christians is the same one, the same God of Abraham.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 11:54
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 10:16 |
tamijo wrote:
Just as a note, The Last temptation of crist, as not an religous film in the Classic sence.
Made by Allan Parker, |
Someone did a movie about the governor of Florida?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 09:57 |
kingfriso wrote:
Religion hasn´t really served the artists and knowlegde of mankind. I therefore wander why one would love to sing about it. I myself see inspiration to write great songs as a devine gift, but no reason there to refer to age old beliefs called monotheistic religions that just were confenient at the time. We now all have acces to knowlegde and this will hopefully lead to wisdom and ethics. Now, that´s something to sing about! Critisize your society for it´s flaws! And luckely, a lot of artist do just that. |
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