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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Points: 19535
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 Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:07 |
 Deathrabbit wrote:
I like that line. That's pretty much because I agree with it though. However, I din't see it so much as an indictment on the CC, but rather on organized faith as a whole. There's quite a few evangelicals that hold marriage to be inconsistent with ministry, not just the CC. The gay thing is even more applicable given the homophobia of modern US religions.
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Then is out of Context, because this is suposed to be a work about the Reformation, not about Neal Morse's views about modern Church.
I supposed that was preaching about his own beliefs, because the term is from Greek origin and for that reason not used in 1518.
| 1892, in C.G. Craddock's translation of Krafft-Ebbing's "Psychopathia Sexualis." The noun is recorded from 1920, but not in common use until 1960s. Colloquial shortening hetero is from 1933. Heterosexuality is first recorded 1900. Heterosexist "characteristic of discrimination against homosexuals" is first attested 1979.
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More reasons to believe he's preaching.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 18:21
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:41 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't
Look I've got great big armie like a General
I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero
Iván |
I like that line. That's pretty much because I agree with it though. However, I din't see it so much as an indictment on the CC, but rather on organized faith as a whole. There's quite a few evangelicals that hold marriage to be inconsistent with ministry, not just the CC. The gay thing is even more applicable given the homophobia of modern US religions. Yea ML got pretty intolerant. However, most of that was in his later years, well after the 95 theses. In his earlier writings he actually encouraged compassion in dealing with jews. I halfway wonder sometimes if some of his works weren't doctored by others for their own agendas b/c his viewpoitn varies wildly over the course of life. Maybe one just kicked him in the shin or something.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:38 |
Evolver wrote:
Wow, Ivan, that's some nasty stuff. I didn't know that about Martin Luther. Thanks for posting it.
What is the context of that "hetero" line. I can't tell from your original posting if it goes with the verses above it. Is he singing from the supposed viewpoint of the Pope? |
I am clueless about the absolutely out of context phrase, not something The Pope Leon X would say or even think in 1518, I'm sure nobody was tolerant with homosexuals then.
It's in the song "The Conflic" from Sola Scriptura
Iván
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
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Points: 5482
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:25 |
Wow, Ivan, that's some nasty stuff. I didn't know that about Martin Luther. Thanks for posting it.
What is the context of that "hetero" line. I can't tell from your original posting if it goes with the verses above it. Is he singing from the supposed viewpoint of the Pope?
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:12 |
sinkadotentree wrote:
That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work.
And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have? |
Well, the truth is that Catholic Church didn't loved the Jewishs either, the Inquisition is a prove of that, but the point is that all the religions made mistakes but is important to notice them and give a step back as John Paul II did when he asked for pardon of the acts that were commited long before his time.
What is absurd is to keep atacking ourselves as enemies when we venerate the same God, even the Moslems and Jewishs accept the God of Abraham as their God.
I remember reading that when the puppet of Mike Rutherford in Land of Confusion (Or one similar) was used to represent Christ (I believe in a BBC program), the ones that protested were the Muslims, that was a nice gesture, being that Jesus is not even the principal Profet for them, but they showed respect.....Don't know if this is an urban myth, but Muslims have great respect for Christ
Iván
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The Doctor
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Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:05 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Yeah, and she's no longer in the cast. Boooo!!!! 
She does play Kirk's mom in the new Star Trek movie though. Yay!!
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I'm gonna travel into the future and be Kirk's father and her daddy. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13416
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:58 |
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That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work.
And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have?
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:40 |
sinkadotentree wrote:
I guess i believe that people are people. Luther was a great reformist regardless of his anti-Jewish beliefs. In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples. |
Themn why does he criticizes the Pope of those days, if "In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples"
If you criticize somebody, you have to be better than him, a person who wants to exterminate a race (well two, he doesn't like the gysies either) or wtrites aberrations like this that would make Hitler proud:
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Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly and I myself was unaware of it will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.
Fifth, I advise that safeconduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.
Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
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Can criticize nobody.....For God's sdake, Mein Kampf is a nursery rhyme book conmmpared with this abomination that everybody seem to ignore.
sinkadotentree wrote:
You put people(saints) on a pedestals like the Romans put gods on a pedestal.That's his comparison. As far as Morse comparing the pope with a beast with horns i missed that in the lyrics. |
Saints are people who received the grace of God, not a pagan divinity.
Just in case you missed that part:
Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't
Look I've got great big armie like a General
I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 30 2009 at 13:27
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13416
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:28 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
sinkadotentree wrote:
I've been thinking your too sensitive about it but maybe i've been too insensitive.Sorry. |
Do you beńieve that listening someone compare our religious leader and the direct representative of Christ on earth according to our beliefs with a beast with horns is being oversensitive?
Do you believe that reading how Mr. Morse compares our saints with pagan gods is being over sensitive?
Iván |
I guess i believe that people are people. Luther was a great reformist regardless of his anti-Jewish beliefs. In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples.You put people(saints) on a pedestals like the Romans put gods on a pedestal.That's his comparison. As far as Morse comparing the pope with a beast with horns i missed that in the lyrics.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:07 |
sinkadotentree wrote:
I've been thinking your too sensitive about it but maybe i've been too insensitive.Sorry. |
Do you beńieve that listening someone compare our religious leader and the direct representative of Christ on earth according to our beliefs with a beast with horns is being oversensitive?
Do you believe that reading how Mr. Morse compares our saints with pagan gods is being over sensitive?
Iván
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:58 |
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:35 |
Yeah, and she's no longer in the cast. Boooo!!!! She does play Kirk's mom in the new Star Trek movie though. Yay!!
Edited by Slartibartfast - May 29 2009 at 15:37
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:30 |
Epignosis wrote:
By "place," that's what I meant. This isn't the thread. I'd be happy to answer objections.
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Yes, I know. 
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Epignosis
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:13 |
By "place," that's what I meant. This isn't the thread. I'd be happy to answer objections.
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:10 |
Evolver wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic.
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Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people." |
House is the best! Love that show. Especially Ms. Morrison. 
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:06 |
Epignosis wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
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How about a song reflecting the fallacies and contradictions of the Bible. Or does that offend? |
If there were any...
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Oh, please. |
Your claim that there are contradictions and fallacies is just as useless as my claim that there are none. You would have to cite an example, and I would have to show how it is not an example.
However, this is not the place to do it.
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Someone make a thread in General Discussion. 
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infandous
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Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:01 |
The T wrote:
While a strong opponent of religion (see my avatar), I have to say that religious inspiration has given mankind some of the absolute best musical pieces of all time... just listen to the works of JSBach, GFHandel (though more secular), Anton Bruckner, and countless others who took inspiration from their faith.
Yes, the question would be: "wouldn't they have composed those works anyway without religious inspiration?" The answer is: we will never know, and thank their god for inspiring them to create some of the absolute best music that has been created.
Now, in today's rock, I think both crazy religious fanatics and anti-religious madmen have the same right to preach. It's in my power to decide what sermon to listen. And HOW to listen to it.
In the end, if the music is good, they could be singing about the life and work of Jonah inside the whale that the piece would stull deserve a listen.
But, as Torman Maxt proves, that combination is rare. |
Your avatar is a symbol of Satanism, which is completely derived from religion (i.e. the Old and New Testaments of the Bible). So it's kind of a contradiction to suggest that Satanism is anti-religion when it owes its very existence to religion. Other than that, I agree with your post completely.
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Evolver
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Joined: October 22 2005
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:23 |
The T wrote:
While a strong opponent of religion (see my avatar), I have to say that religious inspiration has given mankind some of the absolute best musical pieces of all time... just listen to the works of JSBach, GFHandel (though more secular), Anton Bruckner, and countless others who took inspiration from their faith.
Yes, the question would be: "wouldn't they have composed those works anyway without religious inspiration?" The answer is: we will never know, and thank their god for inspiring them to create some of the absolute best music that has been created.
Now, in today's rock, I think both crazy religious fanatics and anti-religious madmen have the same right to preach. It's in my power to decide what sermon to listen. And HOW to listen to it.
In the end, if the music is good, they could be singing about the life and work of Jonah inside the whale that the piece would stull deserve a listen.
But, as Torman Maxt proves, that combination is rare. |
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Evolver
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:18 |
Epignosis wrote:
Your claim that there are contradictions and fallacies is just as useless as my claim that there are none. You would have to cite an example, and I would have to show how it is not an example.
However, this is not the place to do it.
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Whatever 
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Epignosis
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Joined: December 30 2007
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:05 |
Evolver wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible.
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How about a song reflecting the fallacies and contradictions of the Bible. Or does that offend? |
If there were any...
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Oh, please. |
Your claim that there are contradictions and fallacies is just as useless as my claim that there are none. You would have to cite an example, and I would have to show how it is not an example.
However, this is not the place to do it.
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Religious lyrics ?
