We -need- progressive rap.

The Doctor wrote: No.  We do not need progressive rap.  That would lead to prog gangstas, turf wars between the artists.  Could you imagine Jon Anderson doing a drive-by of Peter Gabriel's house?  The lyrics would become nothing more than talking about what a great band they are, the sexual prowess of its members, and how the other bands suck and are gonna get shot up.  Let's not forget the anger directed toward the police for just doing their job and arresting scumbags.  No, progressive rap would lead to a massive deterioration of the art form into nothing more than a feeding ground for the bottom feeders of the world.

Ty 1020 answered:

A good way to tell if you know anything about rap: if you actually think "gangstas" and that sort of thing are part of the genre, then no, you don't know anything about it.

Ty 1020 saoid again:

If you ever do some research on what the rap genre is actually like and want to continue this discussion afterwards, I'd be glad to

Well, I'm doing the research and guess what I found, Con Safo mentioned in his list of great Rappers a  N°1 a guy named Immortal Technique, let's see his background:

Compiling multiple assault charges in New York State and in other states eventually caught up to the uncompromisingly hardheaded actions of one Immortal Technique. He faced several charges for Aggravated Assault in the tri-state area. Realizing his inevitable incarceration... .......He was facing a 5-10 stretch, but the hiring of a pittbull attorney helped him compile the cases without turning snitch like his co-defendants. The result was a 1-2 year sentence in the mountains, 6 hours away from the city. Taken from his web page in Viper Records

Is there any difference with mainstream Rappers, please, the guy is a convicted criminal.

• Does he have musical studies.....NO
• Is he virtuoso in any instrument....NO
• Does he even plays instruments...NO
• Where did he learned to Rap.....In Prison, after he recieved a soft condemn due to tecnicalities used by a "pittbull lawyer".

And don't come me with the BS that this is because lack of opportunities because

the kid still managed to finish high school and got accepted to a state university. Unfortunately the survivalist and aggressive attitude that was the norm in New York City caused him to be involved in more violent altercations at school, whether it was with other brothers, false flaggers or the relentlessly racist population of an uncultured Middle America.

He chosed this life even when he reached the university, the easy way is blaming the rest of the people, "New York", "his brothers", "false Flaggers" or "Racist Population of the uncultured middle America" always blaming the rest of the people, never himself, how convinient.

Is this what we want for Prog'? Is there any difference with the scumbags you mention Doctor? I don't think so, this guy is even worst.

By the way, also mentioned Gang Starr, has this some relation with Gangsta?

I also found a some info about another "great Underground band" (In Con Safo's words) called Ugly Duckling:

When Ugly Duckling came through Iowa City last year promoting their second album, Journey to Anywhere, they left a bit to be desired, especially when overcompensating by telling us how "real" they were.... Anyway, imagine my surprise when I heard Ugly Duckling's new Taste the Secret, which is anything but authentic. What undie hip-hop group in its right mind would dare hire 1980s one-hit wonder Stacey "Two of Hearts" Q to help write pop hooks for a concept album about a fast-food chain that only serves meat fries, meat salads, and meatshakes? The Long Beach trio sprinkles ad jingles ("When you're hungry and thirsty") between ridiculously hummable songs http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0324,mcleod,44742,22.html

Sound like Posers to me.

And just starting the search

Iván

 

 

Edited by ivan_2068

Well, some people are arguing about mixing progressive rock with rap, and some people are arguing about mixing sophistication with rap. And some poeple think they're the same thing .

I suppose to create a hybrid of progressive rock and rap (not what the original thread said, but there we go), it must be accepted that sophistication with rapping is possible, so let me provide just a couple of examples. You don't have to like it, but to say it's simple, one beat repeated over and over again, etc. etc. is just wrong

http://www.m-base.org/myths_modes_and_means_mp3_files/Song_o f_the_beginnings.mp3

...and yes, you have to wait about fourteen minutes before it moves into proper rapping, but for about three or four minutes before that it's sort of half singing. Nineteen minutes long? It must be prog

The Doctor wrote: No.  We do not need progressive rap.  That would lead to prog gangstas, turf wars between the artists.  Could you imagine Jon Anderson doing a drive-by of Peter Gabriel's house?  The lyrics would become nothing more than talking about what a great band they are, the sexual prowess of its members, and how the other bands suck and are gonna get shot up.  Let's not forget the anger directed toward the police for just doing their job and arresting scumbags.  No, progressive rap would lead to a massive deterioration of the art form into nothing more than a feeding ground for the bottom feeders of the world.

If I have to read one more post like this I think I'll explode. For Christ's sakes, mainstream rap sucks and we all know it. But, whether you want to believe it or not, there are many more unknown rap artists out there whose lyrics and musicality are exponentially better than what you've heard on the radio. A good way to tell if you know anything about rap: if you actually think "gangstas" and that sort of thing are part of the genre, then no, you don't know anything about it.

Ivan: I find it funny that you thought I was "only a rap fan with good intentions" when I already made it clear that I was not a big rap fan; I'm simply someone who can accept the fact that the genre has good artists and goes much deeper than the crap the radio plays. If I showed you my current playlist of over 1000 songs, you'd see that literally less than 10 of them were rap, so please, don't think my judgement is clouded by some sort of blind fanatacism or something like that. That said, I have listened to a good deal of rap, and although I have not enjoyed it all, it's still been obvious to me that most of the artists are lyrically interesting and have the potential to be musically interesting, should they ever choose to be. Many of them already are.

Like Con Safo, I'm not a rap expert and I don't claim to be, but I know many people who are; those people could easily name 100 great rap artists off the top of their heads and it's because of their knowledge that I'm aware of the existance of quality rap artists.

About a year ago, I had the exact same misinformed opinion as you. I hated all rap and thought it was impossible for good rap to exist. Any time somebody showed me a good rap artist, I assumed that they were an exception to the rule and dismissed them as such. Now, obviously, I've been proven wrong and have a different opinion now that I have a larger knowledge of the genre and its characteristics. It is because of this, though, that I can see the futility in this argument: when I thought like you, I refused to change my mind regardless of how many times people told me I was wrong, and I can see you're being the same way.

You claim to be using logic, but logic doesn't work when the basic facts of the situation remain unknown to you. Before you can try to legitimately argue against rap, you have to know about rap beyond the terrible mainstream artists, and you admittedly don't, so what's the point of trying to convince you that you're wrong when you don't even know a thing about the topic at hand? There is no point, as this thread has proven time and time again. We've been talking in circles here for a long time and I don't have the energy to keep explaining the same things to you over and over again because you're clearly unwilling to accept the truth, so, in the interest of my time and sanity, I'm going to just agree to disagree here for now. If you ever do some research on what the rap genre is actually like and want to continue this discussion afterwards, I'd be glad to, but for now it's just a waste of everybody's time. It would be like me trying to argue with you about what it's like to be a lawyer - obviously you would know a lot more about that than me, but I could just as easily sit here and keep refusing to listen to you, re-stating my incorrect opinions based on my limited knowledge of the subject from what I've seen on TV shows and in movies.

The bottom line: this argument is going nowhere, and until you know a thing or two about the subject, it will continue to go nowhere. Good day to you, sir. Hopefully there are no hard feelings left behind.

How about Dalek?

Quote: Dalek is the MC who has his sights set on Hip-Hop 2000. With worldwide scope and influence, Dalek speaks to all of us regardless of race or background. We are a universal community, aware of our spiral towards violence and destruction, and Dalek serves as a wakeup call, bringing forth a message through apocalyptic beats and abstract rhymes.

Once, the music of artists like KRS One, Public Enemy and N.W.A. spoke to us with lyrics and music that galvanized us and helped to create a youth-oriented urban political voice. Now, it seems as though there might not be any room left for politics in hip hop (if you based that opinion solely on recent record sales). Dalek offers an alternative by creating a medium of interaction never before experienced, fusing the sounds of groups like Faust or The Velvet Underground with the raw energy of Eric B and Rakim

End quote.

Metal music now uses rappers, just listen to Xecutioners (Linkin Park members), Linkin Park with Jayzee (sp.) for instance.  I am sure progressive music can be linked with rap/hip-hop.  I am not sure if I'd necessarily like it though.  I am always open to new music, so I would give it a listen at least.

I like a lot of Prodigy (not rap I know) and that has a lot of progressive elements and samples, the same applied with Fat Boy Slim.

Anything is possible.

Also, check out this link: http://www.scaruffi.com/history/cpt513.html


Edited by Geck0

OKAY, all of you, I think i have something interesting here!

not that i want to promote and worship rap, FAR FROM THAT, i just want to tell you that i've made a research about more "elaborated-sophisticated" rap, and i think i found what some people here try to explain us: rap tracks that borrow some very light rock structures, not prog, but more structured and significant, with more elaborated and melodic keyboards. i don't want to name it prog rap, far from that, but i want to show you that there are better rap artists than others, and the better ones are not really known by the mainstream. the name of the artist is UNDERGROUND COMMITTEE, and i have below all the clips of the album tracks. here are my comments according to what i listened: Ivan et al ,just listen to this:

http://www.music.com/release/the_prophecy/4/

track 1 sounds a bit like suzanne ciani's electronic new age!! admit it is surprisingly good for a rap artist!!

track 2 has nothing to do with rap: it is a pure neo prog-like intro!

the keyboards on track 4 sound slightly proggish, but it is too repetitive to be completely prog!

on track 5, despite the presence of a good organ sound, the keyboards patterns are too repetitive to be prog.

the keyboards on track 6 are close to the possible arrangement of a cheap neo prog track, but , again, it is too repetitive to be called prog rap.

track 7 probably has the most progressive keyboards arrangements, but the voices kill everything that could be interesting.

track 8 has a good combination of organ and percussive synthesizers, but they are too repetitive to be called pro rap.

track 10 is too lazy, nunchalent and slow, so that it dangerously approaches the mainstream style.

just focus on the vocals on track 12: notice that they are impressively fully synchronized and interlocking, evoking a bit some good Zappa's vocals performance of the 80's. however, the music, despite not disgraceful, is amazingly empty....

To conclude, this is the best rap i have listened so far, still absolutely not progressive at all; when comes time to rate this record, 2 stars is the best i can give, because i prefer patrick moraz's timecode, which is at 2,5 stars!

new here.

has anyone heard of gruvis malt? it's not really progressive rock.. more of jazz/funk with some rap parts.  their music sounds fresh, with a few odd time signatures, interesting chords.  i'm saying that good progressive rock with rap elements may be possible, but to make a purely rap/hip-hop group progressive would be another thing.

Edited by gorecki

Con Safo wrote:

just to name a few. ivan, at first i respected your right to disagree on this situation, but your last post has severely changed my mind, as its one of the most ignorant things i've read in this thread so far. I'm no hip hop expert nor do i claim to be, but i could direct you towards some REAL hip hop experts and you can try your hand at them.

I congratulate you for knowing the name of 17 bands:

1. I only heard comments about Sage Francis and aren't very good,
2. The Beastie Boys sound like crap to me (just being plain honest), BTW what in hell are they Rappers, Punks or self proclaimed Rock stars?
3. I also had a chance to listen Inmortal Technique (revolutionary Vol. 1) because I was doing a research (only for curiosity) about bands influenced or related with  this Peruvian rapper and Chuck D influence, and it's only cheap political Propaganda  with no musical value IMO.

With this small knowkledge of great Rap bands, my opinion hasn't changed at all.

I won't have a chance to talk with Hip Hop experts about their genre (and honestly wouldn't care less)  as they won't last one minute talking about Progressive Rock with me, but I haven't claimed being an expert as Ty1020.

So again, you're only giving your opinion at least I heard two of the mentioned bands and still I keep the same opinion.

Just to end, i never called anybody ignorant or diminished his opinions, something you and Ty have done repeteadly, so your last statement describes yourselves, I can't continue answering posts of people that replies with agressive comments, and If I was agressive with ty is because his pompous comments to lateralus post.

Iván

 

Edited by ivan_2068

Immortal Technique
Ugly Duckling
mf doom
mr lif
Madlib
rjd2
Dj Shadow
Blueprint
Beastie Boys (one of the few quality rap groups that broke the mainstream)
Sage Francis
Quasimoto
K-os
The Roots
Gang Starr
Blockhead
Bonobo
People Under The Stairs

just to name a few. ivan, at first i respected your right to disagree on this situation, but your last post has severely changed my mind, as its one of the most ignorant things i've read in this thread so far. I'm no hip hop expert nor do i claim to be, but i could direct you towards some REAL hip hop experts and you can try your hand at them.

anyhow, i'm getting quite sick of this arguement as it seems no sense can be talked into you ivan.


Edited by con safo

Man Overboard wrote: I'm listening to the new Sage Francis...  it's -so- -close-...  tons of creative musical elements, lots of time changes, insanely intelligent lyrics...  if we could just take that -next- -step-... ...I despise mainstream rap, but there's underground stuff that's seriously great.  If we could combine it with prog, I'd embrace it.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion here as to why, I would like to say that I actually agree with what MO says here; it's really the next inevitable evolution of prog. I mean, if it's the credo of this website to embrace all forms of progressive rock, then whatever latest form it's currently in will (and probably already has begun to) begin to work in clever, edgy, provacative hip hop styles. It's really not that radical a concept.

I mean, on the next Porcupine Tree CD, if Steve Wilson begins some sort of trippy rap over a weird Floydian soundscape, I bet it's going to sound cool...

Lateralus_66 wrote: Is it possible to mix pop and progressive? NO - Then what do you call Asia, Styx, Supertramp, and so on? Is it possible to mix same rap beat and sophisticated time signatures? NO - Why not? A rap song in 7/8 or 5/4 would not only be entirely possible, but would also probably be rather interesting to listen to. I'm sure it's already been done numerous times. Does it have RAP “talented musicians who work with virtuosity”? NO - There are plenty of rap groups who are made up of talented musicians. The Roots, anybody?

Another post based on a very limited knowledge of the genre. Next, please.

Moreover, you just tried to compare rap with progressive rock. Obviously the two are not immediately compatible; rock is rock and rap is rap. We were talking about the possibility of progressive rap, not progressive rock-rap or anything like that.


Edited by Ty1020