Religious lyrics ?

Slartibartfast wrote: I know this is sure to offend some: Excerpt Frank Zappa Dumb All Over

KingCrimson250 wrote: The word "preachy" seems to be applied to Christian prog in the same way the word "pretentious" is applied to prog in general. Just about all lyrics are preachy in some way or another, but for some reason it doesn't seem to bother anyone until it's a Christian doing it (or I suppose any religion, though I must confess that I am not up to date with the Islamic Prog scene). Peter Hammill writes a song about how we're all a bunch of lemmings blindly following our leaders off cliffs, and everyone says "Hey, what a great bit of songwriting!" but when some Christian artist writes a song about how we're all a bunch sinners blindly following our lusts into hell, everyone says "How dare they preach at us!" I don't particularly mind either, and I do think that Lemmings is a great song (and it is just an example here, I'm not trying to single out VDGG or anything like that), but it just seems like a bit of a double-standard.

That's how I feel.  Jon Anderson writes a bunch of clearly religious lyrics in Tales from Topographic Oceans and regardless, it's my favorite album of all time (and I'm not alone in that).

Christians don't get a pass because we don't have a nebulous religion.  We believe in sin and judgment- period.  That's a part of our message- certainly not all of it (praise God), but it's there.  That message offends people ("How dare you call me a sinner!"), and I shrug and go, "But I didn't.  God did.  It's in the Bible."  As I mentioned in another thread some days ago, being a Christian isn't a pedestal of moral superiority, and those Christians who treat their relationship with God as such (lording it over non-believers) are really missing the point.

Evolver wrote:    I also agree with your statement that artists should be able to sing whatever lyrics they feel are appropriate to their music.  But then, they shouldn't whine when their listeners don't buy it.

Part of being a prog artist (and a fan) is not caring how well-received the music might be.  If artists really cared about that, they'd be pursuing a pop career of some kind.

I'm not going to water down my message or my lyrics because I'm afraid people won't buy my albums.  As the late Oscar Peterson said, "If it sells one, it sells one."  I would expect prog fans to appreciate that integrity more than anybody else.

I have music in part to thank for my growing faith.  I am thankful for each song, prog or not, that had something to do with that.

Coven wrote some of the most horrific lyrics about Satanism on their first album (the last 13 minute track is a black mass service- no music).  I listened to that album in the course of reviewing it; I'll never listen to it again.  It isn't edifying to me, neither musically nor as a Christian nor as a thinker, nor does it entertain me.

That's why I think many of us listen to prog in the first place- it's lyrically and musically deeper than the garbage that usually gets produced for the masses today.

Now forget religion for a moment- what about lyrics I simply just don't agree with?  Andy Tilison of The Tangent wrote some anti-war lyrics I disagree with on A Place in the Queue.  Ditto Roger Waters on The Final Cut.  Yet I still love those albums (both got four stars), not in spite of the lyrics, but partly because of them.  As a political conservative who believes war is necessary and unavoidable at times, those albums give me pause, and in the course of entertaining me with some absolutely amazing music, force me to think about a position that is not mine, and through their words I begin to develop some empathy for the feelings or the songwriter.

The same goes with Neal Peart- sometimes I agree with him, and sometimes I categorically do not.  But does that keep me from listening to Rush?  Not at all.

I'm mature enough to read a book with a theme and viewpoint that is the opposite of what I currently believe and not whine because the author's ideas are off-putting (or even offensive to me).  So long as they are intelligently advanced, I don't mind listening to what other people have to say.  I thought doing that was a virtue.

The word "preachy" seems to be applied to Christian prog in the same way the word "pretentious" is applied to prog in general. Just about all lyrics are preachy in some way or another, but for some reason it doesn't seem to bother anyone until it's a Christian doing it (or I suppose any religion, though I must confess that I am not up to date with the Islamic Prog scene). Peter Hammill writes a song about how we're all a bunch of lemmings blindly following our leaders off cliffs, and everyone says "Hey, what a great bit of songwriting!" but when some Christian artist writes a song about how we're all a bunch sinners blindly following our lusts into hell, everyone says "How dare they preach at us!"

I don't particularly mind either, and I do think that Lemmings is a great song (and it is just an example here, I'm not trying to single out VDGG or anything like that), but it just seems like a bit of a double-standard.


Edited by KingCrimson250 - May 30 2009 at 00:13

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Evolver wrote: Wow, Ivan, that's some nasty stuff.  I didn't know that about Martin Luther.  Thanks for posting it.   What is the context of that "hetero" line.  I can't tell from your original posting if it goes with the verses above it.  Is he singing from the supposed viewpoint of the Pope?   I am clueless about the absolutely out of context phrase, not something The Pope Leon X would say or even think in 1518, I'm sure nobody was tolerant with homosexuals then.   It's in the song "The Conflic" from Sola Scriptura   Iván

Maybe both can't be right, most surely can't....But I didn't said that, I said that both worship the God of Abraham.

But both religions consider as God, the God of Abraham.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 20:02

Epignosis wrote: Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam.  I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176) Muslims and Jews worship the same God?  To use your word...please.

Epignosis wrote: Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam.  I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176) Muslims and Jews worship the same God?  To use your word...please.

for Robert.

Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam.  I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken:

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

Muslims and Jews worship the same God?  To use your word...please.


Edited by Epignosis - May 29 2009 at 18:44

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: sinkadotentree wrote: That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work. And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have?    Well, the truth is that Catholic Church didn't loved the Jewishs either, the Inquisition is a prove of that, but the point is that all the religions made mistakes but is important to notice them and give a step back as John Paul II did when he asked for pardon of the acts that were commited long before his time.   What is absurd is to keep atacking ourselves as enemies when we venerate the same God, even the Moslems and Jewishs accept the God of Abraham as their God.   I remember reading that when the puppet of Mike Rutherford in Land of Confusion (Or one similar) was used to represent Christ (I believe in a BBC program), the ones that protested were the Muslims, that was a nice gesture, being that Jesus is not even the principal Profet for them, but they showed respect.....Don't know if this is an urban myth, but Muslims have great respect for Christ   Iván