Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.

Dean, I had the opposite happen with me.

Getting to University was a doddle but the degree was difficult.  It was not so much the content but the lecturers presentation skills.  I switched off most of the time.  Still, I came out of it with a 3rd and I've not done anything with it.

But I agree with the rest of what you said.

So are you saying we're living a life of 80:20 (or 20:80) ratios?


Edited by James - March 26 2009 at 18:53

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Gustavo Froes wrote: Raff wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I'm not saying that people can move all the way to the top. But education is certainly a great equalizer in this country (like we have anything else that works that way). And why do you think so many minorities remain in poverty? Gee, terrible education opportunities probably don't have anything to do with it, do they? My point being, education = power and advantage. I wish it really was so. It definitely wasn't in my case... I have two degrees, speak five languages, and have a few publications to my name as well. In spite of that, my gross income last year was under $ 30,000 (in Italy, not here), and I had been working for 21 years. From what I have heard, there are a lot of educated people here in the US too who don't make a lot of money, in spite of working hard. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of education, but I have often thought that, if it ever was possible to be reborn, I'd just learn a trade and forget about other things. And by the way,please don't get me wrong,but have you ever lived in a third world country to say something like this?Even though it is of course true that not everybody who is educated make a lot of money,there's not a huge amount of basically educated people in the US who are currently starving to death.You can even choose wether you want or not to go to college. Thank you. I'm not saying you having an education gets you a fortune. I'm saying that in this country, a college education will often allow you to have a comfortable living. Granted it depends on what your degree is in though.

LinusW wrote: Just wanted to give this thread  for being civilised so far

Agreed Don.  I love it when we can joust in a civil manner.  It's so much more fun.  And each party can learn something when they're not feeling anger. 

birdwithteeth11 wrote: I can understand people thinking that hard work isn't that important in being successful. But I think it couldn't be farther from the truth. Let me illustrate an example. At 22 years old, my grandpa had just gotten out of 4 years of serving in the Air Force. He had no college education and a wife and baby girl to support (that baby being my mom). He had very little money or possessions to speak of. He started with taking a job in a factory where he was paid minimum wage, but he got sick of that really quickly and realized that he was intelligent enough to be the guy running the factory, not working with the machines. So he quit his job and eventually got hired by Kroger (for those who don't know, they're a pretty large supermarket chain that exists mostly in the Midwest and eastern parts of the U.S.) in their corporate offices in Cincinnati. They were reluctant to hire him at first because he didn't have a college education. He did however have the G.I. Bill, so he made the deal that he would work for Kroger starting as a manager in their meat plant while working on his college degree. He spent 8 years balancing work, a college education, and his family. Shortly after he got his degree, he was promoted to run the entire meat plant. He had over 100 people working under him. He eventually moved on to other various management positions throughout the company and managed to earn enough to retire at the age of 46 or 47, somewhere around there (he could have had a chance to become VP of the marketing branch if he had kept going another 5 years or so). And he didn't get any of this by sitting on his ass all the time. My grandparents to this day still live quite modestly. That's why I laugh when people tell me hard work doesn't get you anywhere.

David, I don't think anyone thinks hard work isn't "important" as you say.  Just that it is not even close to a guarantee of success.   You also need a combination of smarts and then a good dose of luck.  Lots and lots of people have been hard workers and died in abject poverty. 

But I agree with you, hard work is a good place to start.  I've been bustin' my ass since I was 13 and I've not been unemployed a day since (cept a few days between jobs in my teenage years perhaps)

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Negoba wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: Dean wrote: James wrote: Anyhow... Socialism! Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.   Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist. But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct? And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.   You're an intelligent person. I see some significant disillusionment in your future. What do you mean by "significant disillusionment"? About how you get screwed over in the workplace and no one else really gives a damn? I spent my last summer vacation working as a grunt in a warehouse for a company that packs and ships college textbooks. I saw my fair share of that. Especially since some of the people who worked there and weren't college students treated those of us who were like crap. And I suspect part of the reason was jealousy. I have an opportunity to get further in life than that with a degree in Finance, whereas Joe Smith who spends 8 hours per day 5 days a week packing textbooks in a warehouse probably never had that opportunity and never will. I may be lower to middle middle-class, but I'm thankful of what opportunities I get. I'll work hard and claw my way up and it's not going to be an easy task for sure. But it's not impossible.

Perhaps so, but what is this upper level you're talking about? What exactly is 'up there' and why is it so important to get there? Money? A high social status? Will it realistically make your life any better?

As far as I'm concerned, your "significant disillusionment" may come from the fact that even if you did achieve everything you wanted career-wise (which doesn't happen for a lot of people), it will not change who you are. It will not make you any happier. Some acquaintances of mine, who've gotten this idea of making it 'to the top', are never content with what they have, even if they're ridiculously lucky to be where they are. They aim so high that they miss all the little good things that may be much more significant in the long run.

I'm not saying you should aim low, just that if your life doesn't quite work out the way you planned, it's not the end of everything. Even if your education doesn't lead you anywhere, it's still worth it. Besides, that 'Joe Smith' may well be happier leading his seemingly simple life than you will ever be as a financial hot-shot. That is how I measure success. It's not about how big your bank account is, it's about accepting & being happy with what you have to be happy with. Chances are, you're still better off than 95 % of the population on this planet.

Sorry, this was a bit off-topic, I don't know where that text came from.


Edited by Jimbo - March 26 2009 at 18:01

If Jesus was preaching (unrecognised)  in the U.S. today , he'd be called a socialist, maybe even a communist.
In the U.S, the terms liberal, socialist, humanist, secular, are all terms indicating a certain path to hell if the country were even to hear the words spoken as if they had an actual meaning that differs from the distorted and politically loaded definitions.
Here in Canada, and in many Europeen nations (other than France, even), we call it looking after &  taking care of each other, looking after the little guy/gal, working to provide equal access to social/health/educational and other services, basically equal opportunity for each to contribute their best to the well being of their country & co-citizens.
You, like all for one, one for all. 'Cause in a war, the governments never limit their army draft to the rich, the well educated, pampered elites, and others who enjoy such luxuries as health insurance, income above mere subsistence levels, decent education, proper housing and other miracles shared by a minority in some capitalist countries.
Somehow, taxes are an impediment to prosperity. Or so sez Denmark, Sweden, and a few others.
Taxes are not the problem. The problem is when special interests commandeer resources, citizens stand by passively and vote for the same party no matter what, and everyone declares that they're O.K., Jack, keep your hands off of my stack !

HMOs are better than single payor government bureaucacries ? Is that because it's O.K.  when a profit is being made by said bureaucracy ?

Ok, it's a musical site... and I believe that L'Internationale is a good anthem:

Gustavo Froes wrote: Raff wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I'm not saying that people can move all the way to the top. But education is certainly a great equalizer in this country (like we have anything else that works that way). And why do you think so many minorities remain in poverty? Gee, terrible education opportunities probably don't have anything to do with it, do they? My point being, education = power and advantage. I wish it really was so. It definitely wasn't in my case... I have two degrees, speak five languages, and have a few publications to my name as well. In spite of that, my gross income last year was under $ 30,000 (in Italy, not here), and I had been working for 21 years. From what I have heard, there are a lot of educated people here in the US too who don't make a lot of money, in spite of working hard. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of education, but I have often thought that, if it ever was possible to be reborn, I'd just learn a trade and forget about other things. And by the way,please don't get me wrong,but have you ever lived in a third world country to say something like this?Even though it is of course true that not everybody who is educated make a lot of money,there's not a huge amount of basically educated people in the US who are currently starving to death.You can even choose wether you want or not to go to college.

Thank you.

I'm not saying you having an education gets you a fortune. I'm saying that in this country, a college education will often allow you to have a comfortable living. Granted it depends on what your degree is in though.

I can understand people thinking that hard work isn't that important in being successful. But I think it couldn't be farther from the truth. Let me illustrate an example.

At 22 years old, my grandpa had just gotten out of 4 years of serving in the Air Force. He had no college education and a wife and baby girl to support (that baby being my mom). He had very little money or possessions to speak of. He started with taking a job in a factory where he was paid minimum wage, but he got sick of that really quickly and realized that he was intelligent enough to be the guy running the factory, not working with the machines. So he quit his job and eventually got hired by Kroger (for those who don't know, they're a pretty large supermarket chain that exists mostly in the Midwest and eastern parts of the U.S.) in their corporate offices in Cincinnati. They were reluctant to hire him at first because he didn't have a college education. He did however have the G.I. Bill, so he made the deal that he would work for Kroger starting as a manager in their meat plant while working on his college degree. He spent 8 years balancing work, a college education, and his family. Shortly after he got his degree, he was promoted to run the entire meat plant. He had over 100 people working under him. He eventually moved on to other various management positions throughout the company and managed to earn enough to retire at the age of 46 or 47, somewhere around there (he could have had a chance to become VP of the marketing branch if he had kept going another 5 years or so). And he didn't get any of this by sitting on his ass all the time. My grandparents to this day still live quite modestly.

That's why I laugh when people tell me hard work doesn't get you anywhere.

Re: 666 - It's got its moments...but I wouldn't have made it through it if my attention wasn't on this thread.

Edited by Negoba - March 26 2009 at 16:54