John Coltrane for Jazz Fusion?

debrewguy wrote: until I get my way, there's no way that the way things are done will be the right way. Popularity - highest ratings - best known ... whatever. This is a fan site, not an academic study group. The notion of most representative albums per genre is great until you find out the others have chosen albums that you don't agree with. And please remember, this is a place to search, to find, to stumble across even ... a place where someone who wants to see what might be considered or included in a genre called progressive rock ... hmmm ... maybe some of us might want to consider just who visits this site and why. So unless PA is being proclaimed by the intelligentsia as the final word and be all and end all for determining what is prog , then we could probably just see PA as a great place to check out whether you're just curious about a band, or a genre; or whether you're looking to dig much deeper to see what treasures you've yet to discover . thus, the top whatever albums are taken for what they are by each person's view of what they think they're getting. Rocky thinks that the lists suck. So what. I'm guessing that he probably has more esoteric tastes than the majority here, and likely has a deep knowledge & interest in the artist(s) that he enjoys. This probably means that "top of" lists aren't what he's looking for, nor needs. But if he's here, then there's surely something else that attracts him to the site. Whatever that is , it's great. It just means that PA caters to more than a small sub-section of prog fans.

until I get my way, there's no way that the way things are done will be the right way.
Popularity - highest ratings - best known ... whatever. This is a fan site, not an academic study group. The notion of most representative albums per genre is great until you find out the others have chosen albums that you don't agree with.
And please remember, this is a place to search, to find, to stumble across even ... a place where someone who wants to see what might be considered or included in a genre called progressive rock ... hmmm ... maybe some of us might want to consider just who visits this site and why.
So unless PA is being proclaimed by the intelligentsia as the final word and be all and end all for determining what is prog , then we could probably just see PA as a great place to check out whether you're just curious about a band, or a genre; or whether you're looking to dig much deeper to see what treasures you've yet to discover .

thus, the top whatever albums are taken for what they are by each person's view of what they think they're getting. Rocky thinks that the lists suck. So what. I'm guessing that he probably has more esoteric tastes than the majority here, and likely has a deep knowledge & interest in the artist(s) that he enjoys. This probably means that "top of" lists aren't what he's looking for, nor needs. But if he's here, then there's surely something else that attracts him to the site. Whatever that is , it's great. It just means that PA caters to more than a small sub-section of prog fans.

^ your point is valid, but I don't think the process will change, probably the only other way to do things would be to have the JR team pick the representative albums. We're already picking the overlooked gems, so I imagine the representative album method will stay the same.

Kind of Blue does illustrate the 'flaw' with this system, but those cases don't come up often. The only other ones I can think of are some of Zappa's more popular albums being representative of avant-garde rock, which of course they are not.

Rocktopus is right but I don't think there's any viable solution to the problem. We'll just have to put our hopes into the users' knowledge. I mean, how would anyone with the basic notions of rock think an 1959 album could be part of one of rock's subgenres (JazzRock), before rock was properly existing? There are other, more tricky issues, like Hot Rats and many other of Zappa's albums being Avant, The Sky Moves Sideways or Stupid Dream being Heavy Prog, Benefit being Folk, The Wall being Psychedelic/Space Rock, or lots of post 1969 albums being ProtoProg. And this is only from the subgenres top 20! BTW the algorhythm for the subgenres top 20 is very interesting, bringing more unknown albums to the front. There's even one album which is both pretty high in the top 20 and in the unknown gems list at the same time! 

Atavachron wrote: Rocktopus wrote: Its not discrediting to say that unless you're active on the discussion board, or work here, you're most likely not to understand that the 24 albums representing each genre are not considered the classics or the most representative. That's what I used to think, and Progrocker2244 certainly must have thought so too. yes but that example only applies to a very small percentage of artists here, plus it also applies to full prog artists, i.e. Tull's first is hardly more than blues-rock, a new listener might purchase it thinking it's a standard prog album and find out it's simply the humble start of band that would evolve beyond recognition.. which is of course the beauty of prog and fusion, that journey of discovery and growth

Actually what he's talking about (I think) isn't just every album in JR/F, but the feature albums that come up when you click on a genre name ie JR/F. These feature albums are based on popularity of all members ratings instead of say being picked by the JR/F team or some other method hence an album like Kind of Blue becomes representative of JR/F even though it isn't a JR/F album.

No big deal to me cos it's a cool and influential album anyway, but for the sake of clarity in a discussion of no consequence, it isn't a JR/F album.

debrewguy wrote: nah, we owe to them to make sure everything that is beyond their interest or motivation is parsed and explained in enough detail to make them want to look elsewhere

Damn straight, your the boss, I'll get right on it!

nah, we owe to them to make sure everything that is beyond their interest or motivation is parsed and explained in enough detail to make them want to look elsewhere 

debrewguy wrote: Rocky, lacking a barber to split hairs, here goes ...You know very well that many an album in any of PA's "top of" lists has had its' share of detractors who can loudly "prove" that is it not one of the following -1) it really isn't made up of music from that genre, or is not really that genre;2) isn't representative of the genre;3) isn't really progressive:4) isn't really one of the "top 10/40/100";5) isn't a group that is in the proper genre;6) isn't a group that is representative of the genre;7) isn't a group that is really progressive;8) isn't a group that is one of the "top 10/40/100";9) or the catch all - it isn't so (right genre / representative / progressive / top ) because I say so.The list, as explained in the description is the top 10/40/100 albums from artists in that genre. Klaatu's Hope is ( I think this is the general consensus) a full blown symphonic prog album. It is not to be found, nor eligible for that list because Klaatu is not included in that genre's database. The list(s), if they were to be determined by your view , Rocky, would be a very interesting assortment of duplicating, contradictory, and essentially a quagmire of never ending explanations and arguements.Example - the Strawbs - Hero & Heroine. Listed as a prog folk group. The album could be said to be symphonic. The album, by some of the people around my neck of the woods back then, is heavy orck / prog. The presence of the Lambert song - It's just Love, could be slotted in crossover prog. The mix of folk, symphonic, heavy AND crossover aspects makes it a good fit for eclectic.NOW ... please explain, in an objective and measurable fashion ... where a PA member or PA itself should put this fine album , i.e. what top x list(s) ? THEN ... please offer the technical formulation necessary to achive a reasonably defensible result that would meet the standards that you seem to want to need to make a popularity contest more "representative" of a genre's best of list.FINALLY ... take the time to read the descriptions of each genre, then how & why an artist's entire discography is included, how votes are tabulated ...then ask, for those who are bothered by these things ... wouldn't they be motivated to read everything available to explain why these lists include or don't include certain albums ... and as such ... why would they bother to argue that the lists don't meet their own criteria, when they are not meant to,Then just go & listen to the damn album, or any album ,for that matter .... it is likely to be more rewarding than chasing a swarm of alley cats' tails ...picky picky picky ... nit nit nanoo nanoo

Sorry dude, but Kind of Blue is not a JR/Fusion album, it's only here because of the full discography rule. That's OK, it's a great record and highly influential on fusion and prog-rock.

P.S. Saying a circle isn't a square isn't splitting hairs, that's intelligence.

Edited by Easy Money - July 17 2009 at 11:00

Rocky, lacking a barber to split hairs, here goes ...
You know very well that many an album in any of PA's "top of" lists has had its' share of detractors who can loudly "prove" that is it not one of the following -
1) it really isn't made up of music from that genre, or is not really that genre;
2) isn't representative of the genre;
3) isn't really progressive:
4) isn't really one of the "top 10/40/100";
5) isn't a group that is in the proper genre;
6) isn't a group that is representative of the genre;
7) isn't a group that is really progressive;
8) isn't a group that is one of the "top 10/40/100";
9) or the catch all - it isn't so (right genre / representative / progressive / top ) because I say so.

The list, as explained in the description is the top 10/40/100 albums from artists in that genre. Klaatu's Hope is ( I think this is the general consensus) a full blown symphonic prog album. It is not to be found, nor eligible for that list because Klaatu is not included in that genre's database.
The list(s), if they were to be determined by your view , Rocky, would be a very interesting assortment of duplicating, contradictory, and essentially a quagmire of never ending explanations and arguements.

Example - the Strawbs - Hero & Heroine. Listed as a prog folk group. The album could be said to be symphonic. The album, by some of the people around my neck of the woods back then, is heavy orck / prog. The presence of the Lambert song - It's just Love, could be slotted in crossover prog. The mix of folk, symphonic, heavy AND crossover aspects makes it a good fit for eclectic.
NOW ... please explain, in an objective and measurable fashion ... where a PA member or PA itself should put this fine album , i.e. what top x list(s) ? THEN ... please offer the technical formulation necessary to achive a reasonably defensible result that would meet the standards that you seem to want to need to make a popularity contest more "representative" of a genre's best of list.

FINALLY ... take the time to read the descriptions of each genre, then how & why an artist's entire discography is included, how votes are tabulated ...
then ask, for those who are bothered by these things ... wouldn't they be motivated to read everything available to explain why these lists include or don't include certain albums ... and as such ... why would they bother to argue that the lists don't meet their own criteria, when they are not meant to,


Then just go & listen to the damn album, or any album ,for that matter .... it is likely to be more rewarding than chasing a swarm of alley cats' tails ...

picky picky picky ... nit nit nanoo nanoo

Kind of Blue is a major stepping stone towards jazz fusion, plus the style of modal jazz (static chord change, steady groove) emphasized here is the style of jazz favored by most 60s-70s prog rockers when they do that 'jazz section' in the middle of a long 'art-rock suite'. The other big influence on prog-rock 'jazz sections' is some of Jimmy Smith's more high energy output.

Still it's Miles'many psychedelic rock records that got him a place on PA.

Edited by Easy Money - July 17 2009 at 00:21