Western civilization: Important societies

the ancient Greece nuff said.

Slartibartfast wrote: I'm pretty sure the Spaniards should be offended for not being included in this poll.

aapatsos wrote: RoyFairbank wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I'd put Greece and Rome on pretty even footing. But Greece did a lot of things first whereas the Romans copied them and improved on their ideas. So Greece it is. This is a very typical approach to history. Greece was to Rome what Rome is to us today (and there are more of us). But that's just a superficial approach. Greece was a Polis culture, i.e. vast wilderness doted with a few tiny slave labor and peasant requisition supported cities who formed no whole country or nation. It had limited grasp and nothing compared to the Macedonian Empire or later Roman Empire. While the Greek economy was the most advanced of the time other major civilizations competed with Greece: the Egyptians and Persians for example. The Persians are major Eastern civilization and it was the Persians who almost conquered Greece, not the other way round. Almost everything with Greece is overemphasised. Even compared to other epochs the ruling class has been bloated in historical consciousness to the point of obscuring how it teetered on a primitive and volatile base. Athens is overemphaized. A single dot on the dark, dark map, its "democratic" council of lord slave/landowners was a product of its secure economic position. Otherwise Greece was ruled by Oligarchy and Tyrants, with only a brief "golden age." Greece was a virtual annex of Macedonia and Rome for the following millenia. Rome built a centralized world empire of millions of people, excelled to a point infinitely beyond the Greeks in all aspects of technology and culture, build vast townships, cities, incorporated thousands of distinict nationalities, brought every great empire down to its knees and incorporated them. It build roads that crisscrosed the world, great ships and endless documentation and education. It converted 30% of the known world's population into slaves to propel its economy. It established an economy that reached the far reaches of Asia and was integrated with Rome. Rome and Constantiople were like New York if you take Athens as a small town. Compared to the running strip at Olympus They had sports arenas that sat hundreds of thousands: like the Coliseum and the HIppodrome at Constantinople. For a thousand years after the fall of Rome the Byzantine Empire remained the most powerful and richest country in Europe - until the 1500s. The Holy Roman Empire, the biggest nation in Europe proper (germany and surronding areas) continued the traditions of Rome and operated with its name. This was the most powerful nation in Europe proper until the 1700s. Charlemange made himself the Roman Emperor, Rome continued as the base of the Vatican and the whole of western Christianity. Papal authority commanded all Kings. From Constantinople the Eastern Orthodox religion was run. The Crusades came from both of their authorities. I could go on.  While it seems that you have read some history there are a few points in your response not really valid... It is indeed true that Greece in the ancient times consisted of 'polis-krati' meaning small almost independent cities that fought with each other - i.e. Athens, Sparta etc. The Macedonian Empire was the first to unite almost all of them under one rule (not solely by peaceful means...) When did Persians conquer Greece and not the other way round? Unless there is a historic conspiracy that Greeks indeed conquered the Persian Empire in the times of Alexander the Great... Probably everything with Greece and Athens is overemphasised because some of the things we now take for granted were made and told first time there more than 2000 years ago... and no, I don't believe that Greece is the only great civilisation, I can name a handful at least...

These seem to be half hearted ripostes. You seem to consider the Macedonian Empire which subjugated Greece in its period of decline (and by Greece we always mean the completely independent cities and not really any expanse of territory). The classical Greek period is the period of Greek Civilization. By Alexander's time they had ceased to be the chief economical force on the planet and ceased to be the chief repository of culture. Alexandria, home of the Library, was founded in Egypt. Macadonia a hundred years after Greece's classical period was led by a Macadonian racial and originating ruling class. Macedonia had to rely on expansion, and they conquered the backwards empires of the Near East, bringing Slave economy to them, thus advancing the form of property that made Greece powerful and also ending Greeces advantage. When Persia was conquered it was another just another subject, however, a much more important one than another complete subject: Greece.

Xerxes and the Persians engaged in massive land-battles on the Greek mainland that required temporary unity between the cities. Only by the great demands on transportation for the Persians and a heroic effort of Greece's armies was a conquest of Greece prevented. No such operation could even be imagined by Athens or Sparta or their respective leagues at any time in their history. The main influence Greece had was the colonial spread of Greek people. Only again however, they were unable to expand their slave economy, leaving it to the Macedonian empire and Roman Empire. The whole epoch is realized in terms of the conquest of the Slave and peasant requsition social system just as we see in the modern era empire "civilizations" which forced in short order the complete capitalization of the world economy and social system, i.e. Western European colonial powers, especially England in the later periods, then the United States.

It is these powers and civilizations that sum the epoch and Rome summed that epoch in the same way. Greece is a bud, Rome is a flower.

I'd rest my case but It its been sleeping for days.

Perhaps that's why the Romans invented vomitoria

I'm pretty sure the Spaniards should be offended for not being included in this poll.

Edited by Slartibartfast - May 20 2009 at 15:00

RoyFairbank wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I'd put Greece and Rome on pretty even footing. But Greece did a lot of things first whereas the Romans copied them and improved on their ideas. So Greece it is. This is a very typical approach to history. Greece was to Rome what Rome is to us today (and there are more of us). But that's just a superficial approach. Greece was a Polis culture, i.e. vast wilderness doted with a few tiny slave labor and peasant requisition supported cities who formed no whole country or nation. It had limited grasp and nothing compared to the Macedonian Empire or later Roman Empire. While the Greek economy was the most advanced of the time other major civilizations competed with Greece: the Egyptians and Persians for example. The Persians are major Eastern civilization and it was the Persians who almost conquered Greece, not the other way round. Almost everything with Greece is overemphasised. Even compared to other epochs the ruling class has been bloated in historical consciousness to the point of obscuring how it teetered on a primitive and volatile base. Athens is overemphaized. A single dot on the dark, dark map, its "democratic" council of lord slave/landowners was a product of its secure economic position. Otherwise Greece was ruled by Oligarchy and Tyrants, with only a brief "golden age." Greece was a virtual annex of Macedonia and Rome for the following millenia. Rome built a centralized world empire of millions of people, excelled to a point infinitely beyond the Greeks in all aspects of technology and culture, build vast townships, cities, incorporated thousands of distinict nationalities, brought every great empire down to its knees and incorporated them. It build roads that crisscrosed the world, great ships and endless documentation and education. It converted 30% of the known world's population into slaves to propel its economy. It established an economy that reached the far reaches of Asia and was integrated with Rome. Rome and Constantiople were like New York if you take Athens as a small town. Compared to the running strip at Olympus They had sports arenas that sat hundreds of thousands: like the Coliseum and the HIppodrome at Constantinople. For a thousand years after the fall of Rome the Byzantine Empire remained the most powerful and richest country in Europe - until the 1500s. The Holy Roman Empire, the biggest nation in Europe proper (germany and surronding areas) continued the traditions of Rome and operated with its name. This was the most powerful nation in Europe proper until the 1700s. Charlemange made himself the Roman Emperor, Rome continued as the base of the Vatican and the whole of western Christianity. Papal authority commanded all Kings. From Constantinople the Eastern Orthodox religion was run. The Crusades came from both of their authorities. I could go on.

While it seems that you have read some history there are a few points in your response not really valid... It is indeed true that Greece in the ancient times consisted of 'polis-krati' meaning small almost independent cities that fought with each other - i.e. Athens, Sparta etc. The Macedonian Empire was the first to unite almost all of them under one rule (not solely by peaceful means...)

When did Persians conquer Greece and not the other way round? Unless there is a historic conspiracy that Greeks indeed conquered the Persian Empire in the times of Alexander the Great...

Probably everything with Greece and Athens is overemphasised because some of the things we now take for granted were made and told first time there more than 2000 years ago... and no, I don't believe that Greece is the only great civilisation, I can name a handful at least...

el dingo wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: While we're at it, the Scots need credit for inventing one of the oddest musical instruments in the world.   OK we know it's not the bagpipes you're referring to - so exactly what is this crazy musical instrument?*     *

On a sidetrack, do you know of an odder one?  The digeridoo perhaps?  More in sound perhaps than in actual form.

Oh this is cool, they are both aerophones.


Edited by Slartibartfast - May 20 2009 at 14:34

npjnpj wrote: Used to live quite near Norwich, by the way, in Great Yarmouth. Well, Gorleston-On-Sea, actually. But that's a very long time ago now.

While we're at it, the Scots need credit for inventing one of the oddest musical instruments in the world.

Maybe too much eastern for this poll?