No Offense, But Why...

I want to take a minute or two to respond to Mr. T's excellent observations here.  There is , of course, a great deal of truth in what was said in this post and the parts of I disagree with are minor.  Of course different people have different expectation and "goals" when listening to music.  The thing that is at issue (one of several) in this discussion is whether or not rap can be looked at in equal terms to progressive rock. This has been a major part of the recent pages of this thread's complaint and is implied in the hostile opening post.  In this argument a musical defense of rap is absolutely required in order for the complainant to make his case.

Rap is a juvenile form of music, and in and of itself there is nothing wrong with that at all.  I liked the juvenile popular music of my own time and still have a soft spot for  Slade, Foghat, and Black Oak Arkansas, but I make no claim that they could rise to the level of musicianship and yes, creativity, that is common to much Prog rock.  It was/is simple, juvenile music and cannot be seen otherwise, though I would not have been able to see that at the time.  I listened to that music when I was the age of the thread starter (if that is an accurate age) and I loved it, ate, drank, and slept it.  Later when I was 19 or 20 I discovered Genesis and found the music that truly suited my own personal needs for musical expression, attention to compositional detail, and quality of musicianship.  I found the music that would hold up to scrutiny for the rest of my life, and which led me to more and more music of even higher levels of artistry in the world of classical music.  Not everyone needs what I need from music, and simpler juvenile music may be all they ever need or want, but that does not change the status of that music.  It is still simple and juvenile.

It is because of Tony Banks, Rick Wakeman, & Kerry Minnear that I decided to study music and make it my life's vocation.  Jim Dandy Mangrum, Noddy Holder, and Lonesome Dave Peverett were not factors in that decision.  No one I have encountered ever went into formal music study as a result of listening to 50 Cent.  They do, however, want to take a quickie course in music technology so that they can become "Hip Hop Pudusas" and make millions overnight.  Having undertaken a life-long study of music (classical & all other genres) I can state with no hesitation that prog rock comes far closer to the ideals of true musicianship than rap does and this, also, has been part of the arguments made throughout this thread.

This brings the age element into play.  I do not imply that juvenile music is bad music, only that juvenile music is not the music that will satisfy anyone for a lifetime.  Unfortunately, the thread starter does not have the perspective gained from real life experience to understand this fact.  If his stated age is accurate, the chemical development of his brain in the areas of logical thought and perception are close to 6 years away from being complete.  There's a reason you can't vote until you're 18.  They don't call it the "age of reason" for nothing.

He's found something he loves and seeks to elevate it beyond it's rightful status (musically) simply because he loves it so much and has little true knowledge of other music to compare it to.  Time and a great deal more music will likely correct this impetuous and foolish attitude towards rap music.  He may always harbour a soft spot for it as I do for the groups I mentioned above, but if he continues to truly NEED great music in his life he WILL move past rap and see it for what it truly is in any and all of its forms; juvenile music.  It would be the same as arguing that quality of film-making in "Barney" (or any Will Ferrel movie) is equivalent to that of "No Country for Old Men" , "The Beautiful Mind" or other great academy award winning films. Just because you like it (or because it is all that you are capable of understanding) does not put it at the same level as other, more advanced, works in the same field.  "Thomas The Tank Engine" is not "War & Peace."   Rap is the musical equivalent of "Barney with Bling".



Edited by Trademark - April 24 2008 at 13:40

MHDTV wrote: @Ivan: 1. Listen to Welcome To The Terrordrome   Are you talking about the 1989 single? , yep I heard it, not impressed me a bit,   2. You're not getting it. More than samples.   That's the problem, the samples are the only good thing. 3. Yes, the samples are the center. But he uses them in a very creative way, that very few people could use to the same effect. Sure a 7th grader could make a song like that. But it would be sh*t, right? A 3rd grader who can play the recorder can write a song in 5 minutes. It would be sh*t right? Goes both ways my friend.   Well, the center is from a real artist, a rapper only adds the paraphernalia.   BTW: Get STYX and the Cleveland Youth Orxchestra, you will see what a bunch o 5th, 6th and 7th graders whon take music seriously can do. Greg Lake wrote Lucky man as a fun song when he was 12. 4. Just try and rap.   I can't speak fast. 5. Honestly Public Enemy doesn't cater to a Prog fans tastes. Try Gang Starr or Labor Days by Aesop Rock. Massive Attack and Portishead are great Trip-Hop.   I only heard Massive Attack and Aesop Rock, again, not slightly impressed.   Just got all the availlable samples of Gang Starr's "Step in the Arena", including Name Tag, Form of Intellect and Preciselly the Right Rhyme, you don0't want to know my opinion, just will say that to me they sound exactly as Will Smith. 6. Beat is slang for a song.   The slang term has an ethymology, beat comes from a drum hit, so obviously, it priorizes the rhythm over everything. 7. You're attacking what you've heard of rap is. I'm defending what rap can be, and what I consider good rap to be. The potential of Hip Hop is limitless.   Call me when it reaches it's potential.   Iván

The T wrote: If I may drop a word here, in my perspective defending rap from a musical perspective is quite difficult and maybe even impossible, as I also think it's a very simple style of music. The thing is: not every music caters to people for the same reason, and not everybody listens to music for the same reason. While proggers usually listen to their music to find the details, the musicianship, to be amazed, I guess that usually people that hear hip-hop or rap are not reallt trying to be amazed and amazed at the compositional skills of the rapper. They may want to a.) hear how the rapper can say a lot of rimes in a few minutes, and it takes some skills (not musical, again, other skills) to be able to actually rap fast and with coherence. b) have a good beat to drive to, or to just dance, or do whatever they want. Seeing that the bass line is the focus in rap and hiphop, and knowing how low frequencies are the ones that  impact physically the most, going to specific areas of the brain, it's obvious it's useful musicto do certain things. c) just have FUN. I guess we all agree that we don't listen to music for the same reason. The gyt that listens to hiphop and loves it is in no way musically inferior to the one who loves Alban Berg, because they are not looking for the same thing when they hear their music. d) Also, i guess it's excellent music to show off your car stereo like many people do... (not that I respect them so much but hey, it's a free country).   So, why do we have to compare apples with oranges? That both rap and prog share the same artistic denomination, MUSIC, doesn't mean they are made with the same puropose in mind or that are enjoyed with the same purpose in mind.

If I may drop a word here, in my perspective defending rap from a musical perspective is quite difficult and maybe even impossible, as I also think it's a very simple style of music. The thing is: not every music caters to people for the same reason, and not everybody listens to music for the same reason. While proggers usually listen to their music to find the details, the musicianship, to be amazed, I guess that usually people that hear hip-hop or rap are not reallt trying to be amazed and amazed at the compositional skills of the rapper. They may want to

I teach a university level music technology class.  I spend several weeks every quarter presenting material on the history and the vast musical potential of the electronic music-making software and hardware in our computer labs.  We listen to what the early pioneers did with a handful of oscillators and a few patch cords, we study what is being done today by the brightest names in the business (Paul Lansky, Bright Cheng, etc.) and when it comes time for them to turn in their projects what do I get from my aspiring group of Hip Hop "Pudusas"?

Jay Z rapping over Black Sabbath; Jay Z rapping over Queen, Jay Z rapping over Billy Squier, Jay Z rapping over The Beatles, etc., etc., Or maybe Jay Z rapping while Michael Jackson sings over Black Sabbath, Queen, Billy Squier, The Beatles, etc,  Jay Z rapping while Whitney sings over Black Sabbath, Queen, Billy Squier, The Beatles etc., etc. etc., etc.. 

The students hoping for an A will often add a tambourine and a 4 note synth lick to make it "original".  They are often disappointed.  This quarter is going better as I instituted a policy that reads, "Do a mash-up, fail the class".  The sad thing is they often do work that is every bit as good as anything heard in the "rap business" and they learned it all in ten weeks. That's largely because there's not really much creativity involved.  Finding good samples takes time, and learning to use the equipment takes time, but apart from that, literally anyone can do it.  A perfectly fine Mash-up can be assembled in 20 minutes; half hour tops.  Its as simple as dirt; absolutely the easiest thing you can do with the software, so calling it a creative art by touting the technological prowess of the perpetrators is like calling Sid Vicious the most technically advanced bass player to ever live.

A creative field?  Not in the least.  A derivative field?  Absolutely, positively.  Dear God can you think of nothing else to do with this technology?  The possibilities are limitless.


Edited by Trademark - April 23 2008 at 23:11

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Wow Public Enemy use more than one sample per song....What an achievement!!!!! They should be in the world ,musical hall of fame...PLEASE!!!!!!! Incredible, addinng an eerie female voice to a sample...How incredible and original  Wasn't this done in the late 60's and if I'm not wrong Enigma doid it a lon time ago?????Amazing Blockhead composes most of his synth parts, isn't that what any song performer does?!!!! Anyway, call me the day he composes all. It's almost impossible not to understand Rap, it's musically simple and basic  to the extreme, so I understand it(I don't claim to be an expert, don't care enough for that), what I can't understand is what people sees on it, which is different.

Public Enemy also uses a horn section, a drum machine, various 'effects like sirens etc, synths and a whole lot of other things. Why does Blockhead need to compose them all? Sampling like he does requires just as much creativity as writing a 'real' song. I didn't literally mean understand, I mean you don't like rap. Fine. But that doesn't mean it's unoriginal or doesn't require talent. Every band I mention that goes against your generilizations you'll dismissed as mediocre or worse. I could name hundreds of rap artists that use samples inventively or make up their own beats, but you won't like any of them. You still haven't responded to half my post by the way.

Ivan, Kid Rock has just served up the perfect example to support your arguement. His new single "All Summer Long"  Is equal parts Warren Zevon's "Werewolves of London", and Skynyrd's "Sweet Home Alabama" with Kid putting his own words over.  Catchy mash-up of a  tune, and meant as a tribute to the two acts, along with celebrating the sunny days of summer. I like it, bit just as I enjoyed P Diddy & J Page's Godzilla collab, this will not be something for the ages; i.e. ephemeral to the max.

i have a really good reason why i dont listen to rap or hip-hop

because FUNK is better

It's not really minimalist at all...

That's true.