Clouds/1-2-3 - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Big T

Forum Newbie

Joined: November 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1

Topic: Clouds/1-2-3
Posted: November 01 2007 at 12:32

I might be able to help you out with the Clouds background guys. My Uncle is none other than Ian Ellis who was the bass player and founder member of 1-2-3 and then Clouds.

Ian's biography can be seen on http://www.feenstra.co.uk/bands/ianellis/ianellis.htm

I know he still keeps in touch with Harry and Billy from the band.

I personally believe Clouds were the unlucky fall guys of the early Prog Generation. They set the trends but missed out on the success.

I'll send this link over to Ian and I'm sure he would love to help confirm the "hype " is actually genuine.

all the best

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12815

Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:34

Easy Money wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

(...)As for Miles watching Soft Machine, I think he picked up a lot from watching "hippie" bands jam, a friend of mine swears that Miles got his new sound from seeing the Greatful Dead. Needless to say the Soft Machine had much better chops than the Dead.

The Dead started the whole "Jam Band" thing off, from what I can make out - although I suspect the folkies did it too. It's alleged that they got their inspiration from jazz groups, particularly Mingus and Coltrane (info from Wikipedia - could well be inaccurate!).

Wikipedia also links the Dead's style back to Dylan's "plugging in", which is highly possible, since the famous "Acid Tests" that The Warlocks played at began around the same time as Newport (July 1965), and this was the time when their style "metamorphosed".

So the whole jazz/rock thing looks like equal process - each liked stuff that the others were doing, and mixed it all up.

Birth of Prog = July 25th 1965?

I'm not a big Dead fan, I just prefer a little stronger technique, but its pretty obvious that Brew was influenced a lot by the Dead. Listen to the lazy rhythms and noodling solos that weave in and out of each other and the whole shuffling beautifully messy texture. It sounds like the Dead, but played by much better musicians.
Also the presence of Harvey Brooks on bass, the non-jazzer on Brew, seems like a definite attempt to get some genuine hippie vibe on the record. You guys might be familiar with Kooper and Bloomfield's Super Session where Brooks contributes some real nice tunes.

Interesting how Supersession went in to and then firmly out of fashion. Certainly getting a number of "superstars" of the period together, without recording contracts impeding things, is a minor miracle - although it hadn't stopped Clapton or Harrison adopting non de plumes - a follow-up to Supersession, Two Jews Blues actually doesn't name some of the performers. At the time of release the only cringe-worth element was Al Kooper's vocals but fortunately the instrument work dominates. But I note in the liner notes of the Supersession remaster, that some folks moaned about the over-dubbed brass backing so an alternative mix minus the brass is included. However, what was once a joy, now sounds overlong, is Steve Stills' cover of Dovovan's Season Of the Witch - but Stills remains a guitarist I admire. However, I can listen to Mike Bloomfield's blues there until the cows come home. A pity that the double follow-up Live Adventures Of AK & MB wasa complete shambles, dispite being the first recording of Carlos Santana - and lets not talk about the f*** up of the Bruce/Jones composition Sonny Boy Williamson (btw was this on a Manfred Mann album originally?).

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669

Posted: October 04 2007 at 08:57

The birth of Progressive Rock might be that Sandy Bull record with the long jam with Ornette's drummer. I forget the release date.
By the way, are you guys familiar with what John Cale was doing in the early and mid-60s, I believe he was doing drone music for Warhol events, but my recollections are very sketchy.

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669

Posted: October 04 2007 at 08:54

Certif1ed wrote:

So the whole jazz/rock thing looks like equal process - each liked stuff that the others were doing, and mixed it all up.

Birth of Prog = July 25th 1965?

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669

Posted: October 04 2007 at 08:45

As the book mentions Soft Machine were into jazz from the very beginning. Before Bitches Brew came out they were already into Monk, Ornette, Mingus and older Miles recordings. I think a lot of jazz rock came from "hippies" who were into jazz but couldn't fit in with the established jazz crowd. Being free spirited and open minded and influenced by Beatles, electric Dylan etc what came out was that fun experimental music later called jazz-rock.
Also, I think when the hippies "discovered" Indian music that opened up a flood gate of droning improvs.

Edited by Easy Money - October 04 2007 at 09:02

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12815

Posted: October 04 2007 at 05:49

[QUOTE=Easy Money]Thanks for the info, it is enteresting to read how much Wyatt and Jimi jammed together, also Wyatt sings background on a couple of Experience tunes.

As for Miles watching Soft Machine, I think he picked up a lot from watching "hippie" bands jam, a friend of mine swears that Miles got his new sound from seeing the Greatful Dead. Needless to say the Soft Machine had much better chops than the Dead.
QUOTE]

The lyrics of Machine Volume Two, find Wyatt "thanking Noel and Mitch & Jim for their exposure to the crowd". Whether it is stated in the biogs, Wrong Movements or Out-Bloody-Rageous, apparently several members of Soft Machine (+Hugh Hopper- then their roadie) ended up as unacknowledged backing vocalists on a few Experience recordings. However, in the hippy spirit Machine were called Harvest Records' houseband, for their appearances on Syd Barrett and Kevin Ayers recordings - while The Pink Floyd regularly lent them their liquid light show.

Too many times I've read that Machine's Third was influenced by Bitches Brew - when recording dates, geography and release dates do indicate to be improbable - whilst Hugh Hopper has denied this vigorous during a phone intereview on my radio show. There was huge cross-fertilisation, more than many realise. Just listen to some of Chick Corea Fender Rhodes playing on the semi-free jazz live recording, (made over a 4 nights residency by), Miles Davis at the Fillmore Hall, and I swear it sounds Ratledge-like, suggesting Corea must have listened/seen Machine.

Edited by Dick Heath - October 04 2007 at 05:51

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:19

Easy Money wrote:

(...)
As for Miles watching Soft Machine, I think he picked up a lot from watching "hippie" bands jam, a friend of mine swears that Miles got his new sound from seeing the Greatful Dead. Needless to say the Soft Machine had much better chops than the Dead.

So the whole jazz/rock thing looks like equal process - each liked stuff that the others were doing, and mixed it all up.

Birth of Prog = July 25th 1965?

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669

Posted: October 03 2007 at 19:39

Thanks for the info, it is enteresting to read how much Wyatt and Jimi jammed together, also Wyatt sings background on a couple of Experience tunes. As for Miles, it seems like maybe he was heading towards a band with Jimi and Larry Young on organ. I got some bootleg tapes off a radio show with Hendrix jamming with Larry Young, they are not great jams, both sound tentative, they probably needed a bassist to fill out the sound.
As for Miles watching Soft Machine, I think he picked up a lot from watching "hippie" bands jam, a friend of mine swears that Miles got his new sound from seeing the Greatful Dead. Needless to say the Soft Machine had much better chops than the Dead.
I also liked the old posters that call Pink Floyd "The Pink Floyd".

Edited by Easy Money - October 03 2007 at 19:44

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12815

Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:40

Easy Money wrote:

Regarding early improvisation in rock, there is a book you may already know about called "Wrong Movements a Robert Wyatt History" by Michael King. It is very detailed in its history of the various band members going back to 63 when Allen and Hopper were already doing jazzish type gigs together. The book is very detailed on gigs, recording dates, tours etc. The various members of Soft Machine were into Jazz and Raga from the beginning, so the real question may be "When did people who like to improvise start turning up loud and playing at rock clubs".

I.[/QUOTE]

Wrong Movements is fascinating for the snippets dropped in. EG Robert Wyatt sitting in with Chicago (Transit Authority). Miles Davis attending shows on the Hendrix tour but watching Machine as well. I occasionally correspond with Brian Hopper (founder member of Wilde Flowers, short lived member of Soft Machine Volume 2 during the period). He had learned that a certain American guitarist and friend of mine was keen to record Hope For Happiness and have at least one Machine member - or its composer - on board. Brian kindly sent me one of his recordings from about 4 years a go (on Voiceprint Records), which has a version of Hope For Happiness with Robert Wyatt singing on it - but very different from the high energy rush that Mike Ratledge gave in the familiar version. Brian told me the new version was arranged and recorded in the style Wilde Flowers used to play the number, slowed down in as a sort of raga (i.e. confirming your comments).

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: October 03 2007 at 02:42

salmacis wrote:

I am not familiar with Fifty Foot Hose (have heard of them though),

I recommend the purchase of "Cauldron", especially for anyone interested in the roots of Prog Rock. Given that it was released a full 2 years before "An Electric Storm", it has some incredibly futuristic sounds on it.

It also has a lot of aimless gliding up and down theremin-type instruments and primitive Hawkwind-like voltage-controlled oscillator noises - but I've yet to hear anything earlier in rock music that is as truly experimental, yet not entirely aimless jamming.

The "songs" aren't much to get excited about - the Silver Apples were better songwriters, but had a more poppy approach - and the riffs are fairly typical of garage bands of the time.

However, listen to the album a few times, and, if you're familiar with music of this period and style, the bits and pieces of structured composition and "proper" jazz experimentation (foundations of Prog) are impressive for a hastily assembled and DIY instrumented rock band, and make them stand out from the Country Joes and Jefferson Airplanes.

And it's a lot of fun!

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

jimmy_row

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601

Posted: October 02 2007 at 20:52

Wow, very informative thread you guys; got nothing to add, just...excellent discussion!

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669

Posted: October 02 2007 at 20:41

Certif1ed wrote:

Dick Heath wrote:

Cert ,Did you catch the 2nd episode of Jazz Britannia - about 18 months ago - on BBC4? It was argued because the old guard of British jazz musicians would not allow the new guard touch their instruments (esp the piano), the"kids" went and brought in their electric pianos, organs to play live (suggested there as the start of the UK jazz rock movement), e.g. Georgie Fame, Graham Bond (an early pioneer of the Mellotron), Brian Auger - I can only think of a young John McLaughlin being on the scene with a guitar. In addition there were keyboard lead pop/R'n'B bands: Manfred Mann, (Alan Price in) The Animals, Stevie Winwood in the Spencer Davis Band - Ian Stewart was often called the 6th Rolling Stone and necessary to the band for his keyboard work. So there would have been experimentation from about 1962/3 - so if you are exploring pre-1967, check out some of these band's albums and hear what sort of "album-fillers" were being played.

Thanks, Dick - these are exactly the avenues I'm exploring, and the stuff about electric pianos was one of the first tid bits that leapt out at me when I perused the course of the birth of the Cool - and the criminally overlooked Lennie Tristano, who should be well-known to all Prog Metal fans not least because of his and Billy Evans' work tutoring Joe Satriani, but mainly because his tightly structured approach to modern jazz has more in common with Prog Rock than Miles'. I followed this in conjunction with BeBop through to Hard Bop before I found rock/jazz crossovers. Sadly I missed the TV programme you mention.

In an earlier post in this thread, I mentioned Graham Bond's Organisation as the first recorded band to use the Mellotron, and the Animals as early keyboard/rock bands - Spencer Davis Group are an old favourite of mine, but that's a good heads up about Ian Stewart though!

I'm really wondering where the improvisation and elaboration started to appear in rock - or whether Floyd and the Softies really were first.

There are the bands from the US, of course - the Grateful Dead with their tentative "jazz influences", and a band called Fifty Foot Hose, who I'm having a whale of a time exploring. These guys were influenced by jazz for real (early 1967), and also avante garde composers - particularly Varese (as Zappa was), but were so experimental they actually built and modified instruments to get the sounds the wanted.

I recommend their album "Cauldron" for repeated listens in order to "get" why they're so important. The song "Red the Sign Post" is clearly the basis for "Space Trucking" by Deep Purple...

Then there's the fascinating Delia Derbyshire, who set up Unit Delta Plus, and organised a festival of electronic music in Newbury in 1966, and also performed at the million volts light and sound rave at the roundhouse in 1967 - surely Pink Floyd weren't far away?

...none of which has much bearing on 1-2-3, sadly... I'm trying to track down more recordings of them live - it seems odd that there's apparently only one track in existence - you'd think there would be an entire reel or two somewhere from the sound desk of the Marquee, Dunfermline ballroom or other venues.

Regarding early improvisation in rock, there is a book you may already know about called "Wrong Movements a Robert Wyatt History" by Michael King. It is very detailed in its history of the various band members going back to 63 when Allen and Hopper were already doing jazzish type gigs together. The book is very detailed on gigs, recording dates, tours etc. The various members of Soft Machine were into Jazz and Raga from the beginning, so the real question may be "When did people who like to improvise start turning up loud and playing at rock clubs".

I found it interesting that Soft Machine and Hendrix had the same management in 67 and worked together often: jam sessions, unreleased demos for both the Softies and the Experience, back-ups for other musicians and a tour of the U.S. together.

One of the first U.S. jazz musicians to turn up loud and hit the rock clubs was Charles Lloyd, Miles borrowed a lot from him including half of his band.

This may have been brought up before, but I believe I once read that John Cale (and friends?) was providing loud dronish background music for Warhol events as early as the mid-60s.

Edited by Easy Money - October 02 2007 at 20:44

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669

Posted: October 02 2007 at 18:50

Child in Time was pretty much outright theft. Lord liked playing Bombay Calling during warm-ups and then Ian just started singing with it one day and you know the rest. They ended up calling a live CD, that I think was recorded in India, "Bombay Calling" in a belated pay back.

salmacis

Forum Senior Member

Content Addition

Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928

Posted: October 02 2007 at 10:22

I'll give the Eclection album another listen, for sure. The problem with my CD (on Collector's Choice) is that the transfer is diabolical; I'm not good with technical terms but it sounds really compressed to these ears.

I am not familiar with Fifty Foot Hose (have heard of them though), but Blackmore/Deep Purple 'borrowing' their material doesn't surprise me in the least. Look at 'Black Night' which borrows liberally the riff from Blues Magoos' 'We Ain't Got Nothing Yet' and 'Child In Time' which owes a lot to It's A Beautiful Day's 'Bombay Calling'.

And I gave The Artwoods' album 'Art Gallery' a listen, on the subject of Deep Purple. It's nothing all that startling; if this album didn't have Keef Hartley and Jon Lord on it, it would attract far less attention, IMHO. The whole album is made up entirely of cover versions, and whilst this isn't unusual in itself for the period, the interpretations tend to lack flair, IMHO. Jon Lord does have a showpiece though, in a cover version of Jimmy Smith's 'Walk On The Wild Side' which is by far the best track to my ears. Like Manfred Mann, though, they too did jazzy cover versions of pop hits on an EP called 'Jazz In Jeans'. Listening to all these various albums again, it's clear to me that the evolution in this period cannot be tied down to one band, IMHO.

I like the fact that this site is so all-encompassing. I read other prog websites and it seems as if a lot of them don't even listen to or acknowledge anything outside of symphonic prog!

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: October 02 2007 at 08:20

Dick Heath wrote:

(...) The problem was Decca Records really constrained what Timebox put out on record - a compilation (I think of all their recordings) was released a few years back, and you really struggle to find compelling evidence they were much more than a talented pop group. (...)

This story is so familiar - that's exactly what I'm getting from the Clouds camp, that the band were so much more live than they were in their recordings, thanks to record company policy - and what I've heard so far is quite a long way from the band in the recording of "America" that we've heard.

Presumably there are many others like this from that time - including my current nomination for Proto-Prog/Proto-Electronic/Proto Space Rock - a US band called Fifty Foot Hose:

Most of the pieces on the album "Cauldron" are approximations of what the band did live, including "Red the Sign Post", a piece that Ritchie Blackmore liked so much, he "borrowed" it to write "Space Trucking".

It's interesting that the album was released on the experimental label, Limelight (part of Mercury records) - if the so-called experimental labels were reeling the bands in as part of a sign-up frenzy for this new music, and then compromising their musical vision to help sales, then that lends some credibility to 1-2-3/Clouds' story.

But then there are potentially hundreds of such "important" bands, from 1966-67, aren't there?

/edit - Grace defeinitely sang on "Surrealistic Pillow" - I'm not familiar with any of their material pre-Grace.

Edited by Certif1ed - October 02 2007 at 08:23

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12815

Posted: October 02 2007 at 05:21

salmacis wrote:

I have the Eclection album on CD but unfortunately, the sleevenotes were newly written for the CD. Musically, it's closer to The Mamas and The Papas or 'Surrealistic Pillow'-era Jefferson Airplane than anything folk-rock, let alone progressive rock! It had Trevor Lucas and Gerry Conway in the band, both of which did go onto Fairport Convention, but the music is not like Fairport at all, IMHO.

Sal, in the early days of Fairports, I often read they were England's Jefferson Airplane (and I presume that meant the pre-Grace Slick era Plane). Hence your comment makes some sense.

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12815

Posted: October 02 2007 at 05:19

Certif1ed wrote:

^

As to the Marquee dates, Clouds appeared quite regularly in 1968 too, in support slots - as did Yes; http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1968 (look at the bands who played in 1968 and drool!).

Indeed I've written about Timebox - I saw them at Tolworth's Toby Jug, a few months before they folded. Live they were a fusion of pop/rock with jazz - and they would have been known as a rock -jazz group then, since the base songs they used were pop, but had plenty of scope to expand in the middle sections into jazzy solos - especially in the hands of the mulit-talented Ollie Halsall. As I've said many thime here, I was priveliged(?) to see Ollie do a Keith Moon dismantling of his vibes at the end of the last tune of their set. The problem was Decca Records really constrained what Timebox put out on record - a compilation (I think of all their recordings) was released a few years back, and you really struggle to find compelling evidence they were much more than a talented pop group. With the thought that 1970 was a year of an explosion of ideas on record, and gave the first Patto album as an example, it is perhaps not surprising that Timebox were very adventurous given the chance - i.e. at most gigs. BTW a little known fact: Ollie Halsall did audition (on Holdsworth's recommendation) for lead guitar with the Soft Machine but John Etheridge got the seat .

Edited by Dick Heath - October 02 2007 at 06:53

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12815

Posted: October 02 2007 at 05:09

Easy Money wrote:

This may be redundant info for you but, I remember as early as 1970 maybe earlier, that FM stations that played long cuts or album sides referred to themselves as progressive or progressive rock. This could mean anything from Humble Pie to John Mayall to King Crimson. Later when these stations started to disappear or go commercial (a lot of them around '72) the word progressive slowly morphed to mean only bands like King Crimson.
In other words the termed started out to include a wide variety of bands who didn't make commercial hits, but later it referred only to bands of a certain style (Crimson, Yes etc)
I am referring to U.S. radio and U.S. slang, could be different elsewhere.

I think we are sort of agreeing - progressive music was the original full name, and because I believe the US media was well ahead of the UK media, the use of progressive rock or progressive would there too. My evidence is the first entry in PA's variuous artists section Wowie Zowie: The World Of Progressive Music (1969)- which supports your observation about the breadth of music the term encompassed. And indeed there was this whittling down of bands that qualified as progressive rock - but I'll stick with my 1971/2 date; perhaps it is only with the appearance of PA there has been a re-expansion well beyond what was envisaged in the late 60's wrt acceptable music, (Gibraltar seems to have been much more conservative for a longer time, for instance).

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: October 02 2007 at 02:54

^I agree about Bowie, and the testimony itself is somewhat vague. Bowie tries to express himself in academic musical terms, but gets many of these muddled up. Bowie's always been one to champion the underdogs, though - I remember reading a testimonial he wrote about the all-girl American rock band, Fanny that was over the top, considering the MOR rock that the girls played. I seem to remember he said something like "These girls rock like motherf******s".

As to the Marquee dates, Clouds appeared quite regularly in 1968 too, in support slots - as did Yes; http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1968 (look at the bands who played in 1968 and drool!).

Yes also played frequently as their ealier incarnation, Syn; http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1967 - note Clouds' first gig in December - 1-2-3 don't even have a mention, yet the clipiping below clearly shows they played on 25th March. Come to think of it, all of March's Saturday gigs are missing, which is odd, given that Syn occupy every Saturday in April, May and June.

Maybe this is the root source of the grievance over "America" (just guessing).

The band that Clouds supported in December 1967 are interesting, as they became Patto, and are credited on some sites as being one of the earliest bands to merge jazz and rock. http://www.zvents.com/performers/show/23751-timebox

Their Marquee residency is remarked on at the Dunfermline Ballroom site -

http://www.kinemagigz.com/'o'.htm#1-2-3

- which in turn references the book "The Tapestry of Delights Revisited" by Vernon Joyson - a book I have oft seen discussed as historically and factually inaccurate, and packed with his own opinions (like so many books on this time period in rock music), but nevertheless an important tome on the subject .

On the subject of "America", the song - I covered in earlier posts how it might be possible, and the explanation I have from my contact - which is not implausible.

Oh, and here's the flyer/newspaper clipping (from marmalade-skies, NOT Clouds' website!) - I misread it earler, 1-2-3 actually headlined on Saturday 25th;

Edited by Certif1ed - October 02 2007 at 03:06

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: October 01 2007 at 19:14

I would be comfortable with the notion that the track was recorded in the Marquee studio and the applause was dubbed on. The reverb on the track does seem to support that - all recordings I've heard from the Marquee club sound like they were recorded in a dustbin

I also don't doubt that they had gigs at the Marquee in 1967 even if they do not show in the Marquee gig list. However if they had a residency (which they do claim) then it would be mentioned on the Marquee website. (see the Marquee timeline)

However, it appears that Clouds had a residency in 1969... and on three occasions as a support band to another Marquee resident band - Yes.

1969

Resident artists:
Monday: Eclection, Renaissance, Clouds, Writting On the Wall, the Liverpool Scene
Wednesday: Yes, the Spirit of John Morgan, Circus, Keith Tippett, Mixed Media
Thursday: Terry Reid, the Spirit of John Morgan, Yes, Clouds, the Glass Menagerie
Friday: Taste, Blodwyn Pig, Hardin & York
Saturday: Spice, Procession, Octopus, Village, Writting On the Wall, Affinity
Sunday: The Explosives, the House of Lords, Trifle, King Crimson, Circus, Magna Carta

Yes headline with Clouds in support: Wednesday 29/01/69, Wednesday 26/02/69, Wednesday 19/03/69

...It doth seem odd that two bands on the same bill had links to the same cover song. Odder still when the support band is claiming first use with a suspect "live" recording from two years earlier without validated provenance.

I would also question the impartiality of Mr Bowie's testimony - a 19yo (struggling) singer/songwriter is very likely to hype-up a band who is playing one of his songs.

What?