10cc

Whether 10CC are progressive or not is irrelevant really. They made one of the best albums of all time (Sheet Music), two or three other great ones and they could take the piss like noone before or since. Prog rock? Probably not. Great? Certainly!

If Supertramp aren't prog, I don't know who is. Some on this site seem to regard commercial appeal as a mortal sin, but what's the point in recording 20 minute pieces of rubbish, albeit with virtuoso musicianship, if noone buys them? Supertramp had the happy knack of making great music and selling bucketloads. Nothing wrong with that - they never sold out, unlike Genesis.

Tony

jojim wrote: Hi, let me mingle into that conversation about 10CC and  Gentle Giant (GG). I'm 50 and still regard 10cc as a progressive band because they used parts of different styles of music in their songs. They broke the rules of "cgf" harmonies. For me it is progressive but more "pop" than the music of  e.g. GENESIS. 10CC wrote mostly songs in a clear structure as the BEATLES did. And they experimented with sounds (I'm not in love). What do you do more to be progressive? GENTLE GIANT is terrible good. I bought my first album 1973 "Three friends". I was struck by that powerful music that had so gentle moments (Here the name of the group reached it's peak meaning) Now I own nearly all of their cd. But my favorite is still "Three friends". The album is the most coherent of all - at least for me and my musical taste. There are no nerve wrecking passages, no repetitive song elements. Only at the end of the album they repeat a melodic line again and again. But this is made so intelligent and complex that you get greedy to listen to. It's so marvelous crafted, so majestic, so fluent that you might wish it will never stop. This is not the case with other albums. - "Schooldays" is made so fragile with voices that cross over in a haunting way. That is pure fun and has such an atmospheric flow. Give this album more than "one" chance - it is rewarding for the rest of your life. I listen to it since 32 years - and still like it. Music can have such a big soul.

You've more or less convinced me to get it  

tuxon:

You say, "Why we should dispute Supertramps progressive roots and qualities is beyond me."  Yet you give no support for that declarative statement.  Indeed, I would be more likely to agree with JM that "It would NEVER have occured to anyone when these records by 10cc and Supertramp came out to lump them in with KC and Gong or Yes or ELP releases of the same era."

Again, the question is not one of "well, if Supertramp is here, then 10CC should be here" based solely on their co-influencing, or that they appeared around the same time, etc.  It is based on an analysis of their music.  In this regard, I find it interesting that, after I made my case comparing COTC with OS - and various songs with each other - neither Easy Livin nor anyone else could dispute it, except your broad-brush, over-generalized comment about "Supertramp's progressive roots" - which I question per se, and for which you seem to have no actual support.

As noted, I have followed both groups' careers from their first albums and own both of their entire oeuvres, and it would never have occurred to me to call either of them "prog," unless we include a "progressive pop" category.  Indeed, with minor exceptions the two groups are - in every respect, including composition, arrangement, approach, etc. - virtually identical.  Indeed, simplistically, if you remove the sax from Supertramp, the two groups have almost identical qualities: non-standard pop chord progressions; intelligent, even intellectual lyrics; superb multi-layered harmonies; and a sense of humor - playfulness - that is rare.  Neither one goes very far into non-standard time signatures, extended compositions, use of "symphonic" style keyboards, or any of the other characteristics generally ascribed to "prog."

No, I see no greater "progressive roots" in Supertramp than I do in 10CC.  They debuted at virtually the same time, and their "roots" are almost identical, the primary one being The Beatles.  In this regard, either they are both "prog" or they are both not "prog."  To my mind - based on a deep knowledge of both of their catalogues and a pretty good understanding of what is "prog" - either they both belong here, or neither one does, and there are no cogent arguments that can be made otherwise.

Peace.

Prog-Brazil wrote: What pop-prog would include? America, Toto, CSNY, David Bowie, Poco, Fleetwood MAc?

I could see Bowie possibly, but none of the rest of those.

JMCecil wrote: flowerchild wrote: IMO both 10cc and Supertramp are progressive pop. And I ain't gonna explain why what fun is that?

u would never know...

flowerchild wrote: IMO both 10cc and Supertramp are progressive pop. And I ain't gonna explain why

what fun is that?

heh, that's kind of funny because I don't think Supertramp or 10cc are either one prog at all.  Crime of the Century and Even in the Quietest Moments are two of the best pop-rock albums ever.  But Prog?  *cough*.  I can tell you this.  It would NEVER have occured to anyone when these records by 10cc and Supertramp came out to lump them in with KC and Gong or Yes or ELP releases of the same era. 

The thinking that "I like Prog + I like xxx album = xxx album is prog" is bad math all the way round.  I'm not accusing maani or the rest of you of that thinking in general.  But it does have over-tones in many of the threads.

And, I can't wait to throw the prog-pop window open.  Because there were a good 100 bands (especially of the campy/theatrical style) in the 70s who made really sh*tty experimental/pompous rock records.

Easy Livin:

This is one debate I will "join," since it is probably my single biggest bugaboo with this site.  As an aside,  I own every Supertramp album and every 10CC album, so this is an issue I feel eminently qualified to debate.

Can you explain to me what makes Crime of the Century "progressive?"  I think you are giving too much credit to the fact that it is a "concept" album, rather than to whether the music is prog or not.

For example, what makes "Hide in Your Shell" - my favorite song on COTC, and arguably one of the two most "prog" on it - more "prog" than "One Night in Paris," my favorite song on Original Soundtrack?  I'm talking about musically, instrumentally, arrangement, production, etc.  For my money, they are about equal.  But HIYS is certainly no more prog than ONIP.

Similarly, what makes the title song on COTC - the other one with the most "prog" elements - more "prog" than "Brand New Day," or even "Flying Junk?"  Again, I'm talking musically, intrsumentally, etc.

Finally, I would say that "I'm Not in Love" (the hit from Original Soundtrack) is miles beyond "Dreamer" (the hit from COTC), which is a fairly basic pop hit.

Ultimately, I doubt seriously that you could make a cogent argument in this regard - at least one that would support Supertramp at the expense of 10CC.  Indeed, my guess is that you would only end up proving my point: that either both groups are equally "prog" (if "prog" they are at all), or both groups are not prog.  But it is absurd - from a musical point of view - to argue that Supertramp is prog and 10CC is not.

Peace.

P.S.  And I have not even begun to discuss How Dare You, with songs like I Wanna Rule The World, I'M Mandy Fly Me, Iceberg and Don't Hang Up - all of which are so far beyond anything Supertramp wrote (vis-a-vis prog-ness) that it is almost ludicrous to discuss it.