There have been some discussions about 10cc in other topics , so I thought I could raise a new topic. The question (of course): Is 10cc progressive rock?

I don't know, really. I'm playing (and enjoying) 'How Dare You!' at the moment  and I think that could be called prog, but if you think of songs like 'Rubber Bullets', 'Donna' and 'Dreadlock Holiday'... I'm not sure. What do you say?

10cc: prog or not?

Joren:

Thank you for raising this topic.  As you know, I am probably the biggest proponent of 10CC.  From a purely practical standpoint, I have posited that, if Supertramp belongs on the site (which, of course, they may not), then so does 10CC, since they were contemporaneous, and both admittedly influenced by each other (and both of them influenced by The Beatles, of course).

However, my larger "argument" is that there is a subgenre of "prog" that is missing.  I do not consider Supertramp or Klaatu "art-rock" (the subgenre under which they currently appear).  Or, if they are, so is 10CC (and XTC, and a few others).  Here again, it is a matter of practicality: Klaatu admits The Beatles, 10CC and Supertramp as its three biggest influences - in that order.  So how can this site see fit to include Klaatu and Supertramp, but not 10CC?

I have suggested a new subgenre called "pop-prog," under which I would put the following: Supertramp, 10CC, Klaatu, XTC, Queen (since a great deal of their oeuvre is quasi-progressive), and others.  Or else put all of them under "art-rock," if that's the category that the administrators feel that Supertramp and Klaatu belong in.

It simply seems to me amazingly "limited" to have Supertramp and Klaatu on the site, but not 10CC, XTC, and other bands whose music may not be "prog" the way, say, "symphonic prog" is prog, but whose music is definitely "far left" of "commercial pop," and is definitely "progressive" in its own way.

Indeed, I would argue that, in some ways, 10CC and XTC are as "progressive" in their own way as, say, Jethro Tull, is in its way: i.e, JT's early period (through Minstrel or so) was certainly prog, but they then went largely "pop" (or at least "commercial") after that.  10CC and XTC have been "progressive" in their ways far more consistently, over just as many albums.

Finally, you state that "How Dare You" certainly seems "progressive" in a way, while the band's first eponymous LP does not.  I disagree.  Their first LP is a brilliant parody of 50s/60s music: to my mind, not only is the music "progressive" in many ways, but it takes a certain "progressive mindset" to parody something so well.  Yet even if we "disclaim" the first album, by the time they put out Sheet Music, they were flat-out "progressive," especially compared to almost every other "pop-rock" band of the time.

Indeed, even if we stick to the "definition" provided by the administrators of the site, 10CC and XTC (at the very least) both use almost every element, including textured keyboards, non-standard arrangements and instrumentation, non-standard time signatures (though admittedly not so often as others), and, without question, "literary" references.  Indeed, 10CC, XTC and Gentle Giant probably use more "literary references" than any other three prog bands in any subgenre.

So is 10CC prog?  Not by the definition of prog that includes Genesis.  But by a definition that sets "progressive" rock apart from "standard" or "commercial" pop-rock, an unequivocal "yes."

Peace.

You know what? I think you're right!  I've always had the feeling that the music from 10cc was 'special' and different from mainstream pop/rock music. I hope Max will read this. Maybe he will consider adding 10cc and XTC to the website (although he is very busy ).

And keep discussing, my fellow proggers!

Are there no people here (except for maani and myself) who like 10cc??

You can also say why you don't like them...

Come on, children, don't be shy

I have never heard any of their albums, never considered them as progressive. However, I have heard artists like Supertramp, alan parsons project and ELO and they might fit well under maani's suggestion of pop-prog. I have heard pop-prog (or prog-pop...) used as a genre other places. TalkTalk, as discussed in another topic was placed as pop-prog.....

I feel kinda sad..

I have SO much to cach up to.. still haven't got any album of gentle giant, only 1 of yes, 2 of camel (mirage and snowgoose, LP 1st pressure and CD with bonus tracks, my cds are going away cause of the lp's) and go on like that..
BUT.. I'm getting crimson's in the court of.. WEE!

Radioactive Toy wrote: I feel kinda sad.. I have SO much to cach up to.. still haven't got any album of gentle giant, only 1 of yes, 2 of camel (mirage and snowgoose, LP 1st pressure and CD with bonus tracks, my cds are going away cause of the lp's) and go on like that.. BUT.. I'm getting crimson's in the court of.. WEE!

Don't be sad! You have so much to look forward to!!  Just be patient...

Radioactive Toy:

As much as I love 10CC, don't bother with them right now.  Stay with the "seminal" bands first: King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Moody Blues, ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, et al.  Those are the "roots" of prog, so they should be your "foundation."

Hammar:

Supertramp and 10CC were contemporaries, and were (admittedly) influenced by each other.  Klaatu was admittedly influenced by both of them (as well as by ELO).  Thus, it seems strange to have Klaatu and Supertramp on the site, and not 10CC.  This is why the idea of a "pop-prog" category seemed to "natural" to me.  If not, then 10CC (and XTC) belong in "art-rock" as much as Supertramp does.

Peace.

maani wrote: Radioactive Toy: As much as I love 10CC, don't bother with them right now.  Stay with the "seminal" bands first: King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Moody Blues, ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, et al.  Those are the "roots" of prog, so they should be your "foundation." Hammar: Supertramp and 10CC were contemporaries, and were (admittedly) influenced by each other.  Klaatu was admittedly influenced by both of them (as well as by ELO).  Thus, it seems strange to have Klaatu and Supertramp on the site, and not 10CC.  This is why the idea of a "pop-prog" category seemed to "natural" to me.  If not, then 10CC (and XTC) belong in "art-rock" as much as Supertramp does. Peace.

tnx maani AND hammar

Already got some:
King Crimson (in the court of, LP), Pink Floyd (echoes 2cd, meddle LP, final cut LP, the wall 2LP, atom heart mother CD) , Genesis (foxtrot cd), Yes (close to the edge CD) 

Don't got any of:
Moody Blues, Gentle Giant,  ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator

tell me their essentional albums, there is much caching up to do..

Jim!

It's no crime not owning any Moody Blues (fine music, but ELP, Crimson and the rest eat them for breakfast...) but MAN, we gotta get you some Gentle Giant!  Kerry Minnear (the keys man and composer) is a genius.

The Power and the Glory can be downright frightening at times... if you love ELP's "Toccata" as much as I do, I promise you you'll love it .  (at least--after like 10 listens...)

Radioactive Toy wrote: tnx maani AND hammar Already got some: King Crimson (in the court of, LP), Pink Floyd (echoes 2cd, meddle LP, final cut LP, the wall 2LP, atom heart mother CD) , Genesis (foxtrot cd), Yes (close to the edge CD)  Don't got any of: Moody Blues, Gentle Giant,  ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator tell me their essentional albums, there is much caching up to do..

Je moet natuurlijk niet bij de pakken neer gaan zitten, je hebt nog veel te doen! Maak je niet druk, ik heb ook nog maar 30 progalbums ofzo (van 400 CD's)

Maar van Jethro Tull (een van mijn favorieten momenteel) MOET je echt Aqualung en Thick As A Brick hebben!!! Essentieel!

Jim Garten wrote: Corbet As a total GG beginner, what do you recommend?

I've only got The Power And The Glory and it's GREAT! So I started with that one, maybe you'll like it too! Good luck, Jim!

(You should download the GG songs from http://www.progarchives.com - www.progarchives.com of course, in the first place!)

I too only have The Power And The Glory and its very good.

I'll dissapoint some, but a freind brought over a few other Gentle Giant CDs and none other got to me.I don't know how to express it well but it was too much unmelodic and odd at times and going in too many different directions.A question of taste no doubt.

Sometimes it's like that scene from Mr. Holland's Opus. Glenn Holland (Richard Dreyfus) tells his wife about being given an album from John Coltraine. He said he listened to it an thought it was the worst thing he'd ever heard. Then he played it again and again and again. Finally, he "got it." Then he began to play it over and over and it became special to him, changing his life's course.

Radioactive Toy:

Don't listen to all these prog-rock wanna-be know-it-alls...

I am usually a strong believer in approaching a new group from earlier to later, since it gives a sense of the "progression" of the group.  Thus, I would normally tell you to get a group's first album first, and go from there. However, if I have to give you a couple or few of each, I would still keep them in chron order.  Thus:

Crimson: In the Court, Wake, Larks Tongues, Starless, Red

Floyd: Piper, Atom Heart, Meddle, Dark Side, Wish, Animals, Wall

Genesis: Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, The Lamb, Trick, W&W

Giant: Gentle Giant, Three Friends, In A Glass House

Yes: Time and a Word, Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge

Moody Blues: Do them in strict chrono order.

ELP: ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad

Tull: Thick as a Brick, Aqualung, Minstrel

Those would be my choices.  Happy listening!

I guess you've got the essential albums above, however, I think Acquiring the Taste is Gentle Giants best and most essential album, I love most of what they have done as Gentle Giant is my favourite band.

Corbet:   Don't forget that Kerry Minnear has a wonderful voice as well.

Van der Graaf Generator. I love their own distincitve way of playing progrock and start with Pawn Hearts and The Quiet Zone. I also highly recommend Godbluff, The Least we can do and H to He. Still Life is also very good.

Hammar - As GG are my faves as well...  what by them don't you like?  And Minnear's voice is heavenly! 

Sir Jim Garten - Maani is weird, so definitely do not buy their first album, "Gentle Giant" first.  Not all bands emerged fully formed, so to speak, with Yes and GG being prime examples.  If you want a history lesson, that's one thing... but if you want to get straight to the goods, well:

Octopus is the "standard starter" for the band, sort of like Yes' Fragile.  It contains mostly short nuggets that show off all the band's talents, and people typically respond well to it after a few listens.  The song "Knots" is an absolute masterpiece and is probably the track Danbo is being impressed by, choir-wise.  However, this album is also one of the least representative of the rest of their catalog.  In A Glass House is possibly most widely acknowledged as their high water-mark, and for good reason, so you could do no wrong in picking that one up either.  I would liken it to the status Close to the Edge has garnered.

Their most experimental album is, for my money, The Power and the Glory.  If you want to dive head first into their most brain-boggling stuff, this is the place. 

Possibly my favorite GG album is Free Hand.  This surprises a lot of people, because it is considered their most melodic and accessible album, but, musically speaking, I would say it displays them at the height of their powers.  "On Reflection" is, hands down, the most complex vocal arrangement in all of rock music!  And I will firmly stand by the title track "Free Hand" as one of the ultimate prog numbers of all time.  Complex and beautiful beyond all belief.  The following album Interview is their final masterwork, and contains a broad mix of all sides of their musical personality -- some of their most shamelessly experimental stuff, and also some of their most listenable.  And if you like grinding organ riffs the lead-off track has one of my all-time faves!

All the above albums I've listed in chronological order, but I didn't mention their first three releases, Gentle Giant, Acquiring the Taste, and Three Friends.  Like others have said, these albums are all actually equal to their later achievements, but of the three, the only one I would recommend as a possible first purchase is Three Friends.  If you want perhaps the most "easy" entry point to the band's oeuvre, this is the place.  It is melodic, relatively gentle, and honed like a shining jewel... I don't think it has ever let anyone down.  A concept album, to boot.

...

I guess that's not exactly a clear answer to your question!  Basically, I would say you will not be disappointed with any of the following of their core albums first: Three Friends, Octopus, In A Glass House, Power and the Glory, and Free Hand.

"Corbet, just PICK ONE!"

Okay!!  Well, considering earlier on this thread you recommended Brain Salad Surgery as a starter for one of our fellow progheads, and I know you like King Crimson... I'll follow your lead and say, DAMN THE TORPEDOS,

THE POWER AND THE GLORY!

...

I love this band.

Happy listening!

Oh, and if you care about buying the releases with the best sound quality (some people do, some people don't... I do!), there's a website dedicated to the subject:

http://www.blazemonger.com/GG/quality.html - http://www.blazemonger.com/GG/quality.html

The gist of it is: 

One Way Records and Columbia = not as good  /  Road Goes On Forever, Terrapin Trucking = best.

Obviously, GG fans go the distance.

Corbet:

"Weird?"  Did you call me "weird?"  Them's fightin' words, pal!  (Or, at least, a fighting word...)

Radioactive Toy: Corbet is apparently two beers short of a six-pack...

Gentle Giant's first album is one of the best debut albums by any band, especially given the kind of music they play.  Indeed, I have always thought that Gentle Giant "sprang full-grown from the head of Zeus."  (In case you don't know, according to the Greek myth, the Goddess Athena literally sprang full-grown from Zeus' head.)  This is not to say that GG did not progress.  And if you read my review of Acquiring the Taste, you will see that I agree somewhat with Hammar - though it is because Acquiring the Taste is a "transition" album that I did not suggest it.

In A Glass House is almost unarguably GG's most accomplished album overall.  After that would come Octopus and Power and the Glory.  Ultimately, Corbet and I agree that you simply can't go wrong with any GG album.

That said, I'm getting worried about all the chuckleheads on these forums...

Peace.

Corbet said: Hammar - As GG are my faves as well...  what by them don't you like?  And Minnear's voice is heavenly! 

Interview is the last album that is coherent with the past. However, there are a few satisfying moments on The Missing Piece as well. I consider everything before this as God in the religion Progressive Rock.

It's great to see that you really like The Power and the Glory. I think this is GG's most underestimated album.

Acquiring the Taste is anyway, because you're all weird, the most consistent album.

Weird is wonderful!

Actually, I agree with both you dudes, that Acquiring is a total gem... I get odd looks from people when "Wreck" comes on, though.

And as far as The Missing Piece is concerned... I actually love that album quite a bit.  It pissed me off the first time I heard it (I almost threw it out the window), but, once I got over myself, I found it quite rewarding.  Side 2 is PERFECT all the way through, and the first side is really "fun!"

And, go ahead and throw stones at me, but I think Civilian is awesome.  Angry, rocking 80's Giant??  Like, fer sure!

Spread the gospel, my friends.

I agree with Hammar that P&G is GG's most underrated album.  I also agree that ATT is an enormously underrated album.  I also agree that, after wanting to break it in half (the LP, I mean - remember those? ), I grew to love TMP.  And I agree that, after wanting to melt it into sl*g (the LP, I mean - remember those?), I warmed up considerably to Civilian.  (See how "agreeable" I can be when I've had my meds?  .)  In fact, I consider Inside Out one of the most haunting, amazing songs they ever wrote.  (The only album I cannot listen to is GFAD.)

BTW, have you guys ever heard the song "The Power and The Glory" off Giant Steps?  It's fabulous, and I believe should have been included as the final song on the album itself.

Peace.

By the way, guys, uh....mmmm....how did this thread get from 10CC to GG? 

Maybe we should just start a GG thread, huh?

Peace.

I never thought I would comment Gentle Giant records from after 1977, but as this thread was originated as a 10cc discussion, no harm can be done (sorry all 10cc-lovers).

As Civilian is a huge step forward from Giant for a Day, I really want this album to be good, but I can't. Sorry. One can hear that they really try, but it's just, i don't know..., so desperate. Ok, I agree with Maani, Inside Out is nice. And Giant for a day is terrible, I laugh everytime I hear Spooky Boogie though (not that it is funny, except for the title).

No! Give me Cogs in Cogs or The Boys In the Band and I will cry of happiness...

...and yes, we should discuss this in another thread!! (how did 10cc get that popular???)

Back to the original question ''Are 10cc Prog?''. My answer -No, but they are a very good pop group.I even went out of the way to buy a compilation of them once.What do think of the lyrics on the song 'Art For Arts Sake'? It could almost be a dig at prog rock! 

BTW If we are creating sub-genre's of prog then how about ''Punk Prog''.I would put The Stranglers in there.'Nice n Sleazy' has a great Moog solo!

Jim:

I take no blame if you find ATT a little bit "difficult," since it is a "transitional" album on which there is a great deal of experimentation (I would not have recommended it as one of the first two).  Although its wonderfulness may not exactly be limited to GG fanatics, it can be an...acquired taste.  Do all of us GG fans a favor and listen to Octopus first.  It is probably more "radical" than ATT in some ways.  However, it is paradoxically also "easier" to listen to.

Have fun!

maani:

Acquiring the Taste was my first GG album and one of my first progalbums, I loved it from the very beginning. I think later GG albums are more difficult. OK, Octopus is "easier" to get into. Anyway, Jim Garten, don't throw it away if you don't like it the first time! After ten times you can come and kill me....

DAMN THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU..

I LOVE GENTLE GIANT..

I think that 10cc is one of the greatest bands ever!!! In the early days they were progressive pop, I should say, but not alltogether a classic progressive band as Genesis and Yes, but ALMOST, i would say. Sheet music(74) and The original soundtrack(75), though, is just as progressive as anything from Supertramp, IMO.

So, hey folks, those of you who loves the later Beatles, Supertramp, Alan Parsons, Wings, Alex Harvey, Queen and cool stuff like that: Ceck 10CC out at once

There are sooooo many bands that would fall under this umbrella of "prog-pop".  I'm not a big fan of 10cc but XTC has always seemed to me totally overlooked for the compositional skills.

The issue I see is where to draw the line?  You have a band like A.C.T(not complaining, I love them, but they aren't very prog) on the site, but not Queen?  Do we go as far as someone like Toad the Wet Sprocket?  I mean they are just as much slanted pop as 10cc or XTC.  But, they write a lot of pop-rock songs just like 10cc and XTC.

To me though, this is just like the metal-prog that already is on the site.  99% of it isn't prog at all, at least not by any definition that I grew up thinking "prog" was.  I seriously think that Queen is 20 times more prog than say Opeth if we extend the boundaries.

maani wrote: Radioactive Toy: Don't listen to all these prog-rock wanna-be know-it-alls... I am usually a strong believer in approaching a new group from earlier to later, since it gives a sense of the "progression" of the group.  Thus, I would normally tell you to get a group's first album first, and go from there. However, if I have to give you a couple or few of each, I would still keep them in chron order.  Thus: Crimson: In the Court, Wake, Larks Tongues, Starless, Red Floyd: Piper, Atom Heart, Meddle, Dark Side, Wish, Animals, Wall Genesis: Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, The Lamb, Trick, W&W Giant: Gentle Giant, Three Friends, In A Glass House Yes: Time and a Word, Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge Moody Blues: Do them in strict chrono order. ELP: ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad Tull: Thick as a Brick, Aqualung, Minstrel Those would be my choices.  Happy listening!

Umm, maani.... Aqualung came first.

JMCecil wrote: There are sooooo many bands that would fall under this umbrella of "prog-pop".

That's right. But I'm afraid what criterion you should adopt to add other bands?

If you add 10cc and Queen here (PS.: I really love Queen!!!), so we have to add Deep Purple, Beatles, Led Zeppelin... Metal lovers will go to add Metallica and others absolutelt non-prog bands.. there are many groups of rock (specially in seventies), with strong prog influences... In Brazil, we have 14 Bis (that I love).. so they should be add too.. how to say "yes" for some bands and "no" to others?

Prog-Brazil wrote: That's right. But I'm afraid what criterion you should adopt to add other bands? .. how to say "yes" for some bands and "no" to others?

That was the point of my post.  Some of the bands that are already allowed on the site have created a really slippery slope of what "prog" should be defined as.  If you look at someone like The Who, Quadraphenia and Tommy are more prog than tons of stuff on this site.  Even Who's Next is VERY progressive.  Longish songs, extended solos, tempo/keychanges etc...  What about someone like Brian Eno.  Again, he really isn't prog just like The Who aren't prog, but if DT is prog and Symphony X is prog then so are The Who and Eno and Queen.  If you are going to have prog-pop then Todd Rundgren and literally hundreds of other people will qualify.  You could easily double the number of bands on the site.

Although I think the current "rules" are screwy, I'm not sure opening up the system that wide would have a positive impact.  Maybe it would.  It's not my site so I'm good either way. 

I want to talk about 10cc on this 10cc-thread, that's why i dug it up from the past

List - studio-albums from best to least good:

• Sheet music
• The original soundtrack
• How dare you
• Deceptive bends
• 10cc
• Bloody tourists
• Windows in the jungle
• Meanwhile
• Look here
• 10 out of ten
• Mirror mirror

What do you guys think?

All:

My own personal point is close to JM's.  For example, what makes Supertramp - who are included on this site - "progressive," but not 10CC?  They were not only contemporaneous, but were admittedly influenced by each other.  (N.B.  Klaatu was the third of this triumvirate, and they are included here as well).  I have never understood why Supertramp is here.  However, since they are, I cannot understand why 10CC is rejected.  Indeed, The Original Soundtrack (10CC) is as prog or moreso than Crime of the Century, the one album most people point to as "progressive."  And Sheet Music and How Dare You - and even much of Bloody Tourists - (10CC) are equally as "progressive" as Even in the Quietest Moments or Crime of the Century - and far more progressive than anything on Crisis What Crisis or any other Supertramp album.

As for XTC, their absence from this site is all but inexcusable.  If English Settlement and Mummer are not "progressive," I don't know what is.

And no, I do not believe that adding XTC, or even 10CC, would necessarily lead down the road to including every band back to The Beatles.

What I would do (though I am only an assistant here...) is create a new category called "progressive pop," and include some of the groups already on the site - Supertramp, Klaatu, Styx, et al - and some new groups, including 10CC, XTC, Queen, and others that clearly have progressive influences but don't quite make the cut as "truly" progressive.

I think we are all smart enough and mature enough to know how far we could take such a category without going down that "slippery slope" that everyone is worried about.  For example, neither The Who nor Zep would qualify since, although they both had songs with "progressive sensibilities," they clearly did not write their music from a consciously and deliberately "progressive" approach.  A few songs - Kashmir, Achilles Last Stand, No Quarter, and a handful of others (or Baba O'Riley and a few others) - do not a progressive group make.  The Who clearly approached their writing from a rock-and-roll perspective, and Zep approached their writing from a blues-rock perspective.  Neither was "consciously" progressive, and thus would not qualify as such.

These are just some personal thoughts on the matter.

Peace.

maani wrote:  (and XTC, and a few others).

Maani beware.

 XTC like Police, Squeeze and the Stranglers are products of the UK punk and post-punk period - Making Plans For Nigel is a punk classic. Sure, Police's roots are directly  back to prog rock. XTC (Andy Partridge in particular) are firm psychedelic fans (as Dukes Of the Stratosphere demonstrate) - but I hear in XTC similarities to Stackridge (maybe its the two bands coming from about the same part of England that does it). [And the Stranglers were relatively geriatric (cf. Sex Pistols) when they started - how do you rate Hugh Cornwall/Robert Williams Nosferatu , which with a slight stretch of the imagination could be called a 'Stranglers meet the Magic Band' LP?]

10cc were a marvellous group of like-thinking Manchester-based pop composers - look at the hits notched up for the Hollies and the Yardbirds. However, when one or two tracks that are proggie in structure, amongst  8 superior pop tunes, don't make the band out and out progressive rockers. Again Progarchives seem to be very loose (to the point of losing it) with the definitions. With due consideration, including bands like Wishbone Ash, Spooky Tooth etc., Progarchives should have a review section in which  specific tracks by non-prog bands are nominated (by providing good reason). A couple albums with a couple of tracks by a band should not be good enough reason for complete inclusion here - else we open Porgarchives to every band that ever existed!

kingofbizzare wrote: Also, I just listened to 'Moontan' by Golden Earring, and that is an extremely progressive album, and I would classify them as progressive from just that album (although I have never heard any of their other stuff so I may be wrong).

I've always heard Moontan as a straight rock album - prog rock no. It seems there is a subtle difference  as to where different prog fans put the boundary between the two forms of rock.

I agreed with you, maani, except for includind Queen here.

Their uniques art-rock albums are Queen II and A Night of the Opera. What else? Maybe Innuendo (song, not album), Somebody to love or other song.

Queen released more or less 20 albums, right? They are like The Who with their Tommy, Who's Next and Quadrophenia.

What do you think?

I remember a review that described 10cc as "A diamond in the viscous pap of bubble-gum that is contemporary pop music". So true.

I think "Sheet Music", "Original Soundtrack" and "How Dare You?" are excellent albums with lot of prog moments.

I kind of lost my interest after the split in 1977 when Kevin Godley and Lol Creme started their own duo and Graham Gouldman and Eric Stewart carried on as 10cc.

Codley & Creme's albums are even more progressive than the original 10cc.

Especially the first three:

• Consequences (1977)
• L (1978)
• Freeze Frame (1979)

Mategra wrote:   Godley & Creme's albums are even more progressive than the original 10cc. Especially the first three: Consequences (1977) L (1978) Freeze Frame (1979)

But perhaps their biggest hit was Cry - a good soul tune, tied up with a brilliant innovation pop video.

The compilation album Changing Faces:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000074EE/qid=1116418536/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_11_7/026-4013407-5278830 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000074EE/qid=1116 418536/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_11_7/026-4013407-5278830

 covering the popular tunes/single from 10cc and G&C, has relatively few prog tunes.  G&C's History Mix:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000070IV/qid=1116418536/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_11_9/026-4013407-5278830 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000070IV/qid=1116 418536/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_11_9/026-4013407-5278830

cover little (however, recommended) of the same territory, but they had mixed several of their tunes together with added drum'n'bass, in a disco style prevalent at the time - shifting away from true prog rock structuring.

I think the hardest part is that most, if not all, of the people that would qualify did music that is all over the musical map.  Take someone like Kate Bush or Jane Sieberry.  Both have done work that is straight up prog, but also straight up pop, straight up rock......Sieberry is doing jazz torch songs now hehehe.  Then you have someone like Todd R who would be the king of pop-prog in my book.  Sure his roots are R&B and Rock, but if you can name anything more progressive rock than the albums Todd and Wizard True Star, plus almost every single album breaks off for a little progism between or around the pop/rock/r&b tunes.

I agree with Maani about bands like Supertramp and Styx being on the site.  Also, I would add Rush and a few of the other rock bands.  I like them, but I still can't see how you classify them as prog.  The metal bands here are a joke.  The only difference between them and the guys not on this site are keyboards and maybe extending the songs a bit in length.

The only argument I would have for Klatuu is that a few songs on the first record and Hope are extremely prog.  Hope is one of my all time favorite records and is total prog in my book.  But, most of the rest of their stuff sucks and is the worst kind of pop rock twaddle.  That brings back the issue of how much prog stuff do you have to do before you are prog.

How about someone like They Might Be Giants?  Does ironic pop parody count as prog? 

I think Maani's idea would work if "progressive pop" genre was added bands like Queen, 10cc could be added then on.

Could even put PHIL COLLINS in as well then, Im kidding!

I tend to agree with Dick, but I could live with Queen, 10CC and others in a category with Supertramp as pop-prog.

XTC though,  I do have a problem with them being here for the same reasons Dick mentioned.

Before XTC, I would (wishful thinking , of course) like to see Spirit, Jefferson Airplane, the Doors , Love etc..... on the very same grounds that 10CC made intelligent rock songs adventurous enough in spirit to qualify foir the site.

And we have still two major bands definitely worthy of inclusion still absent: Nucleus and Family

Those should be top priority.

Sean Trane wrote: still absent: Nucleus and Family Those should be top priority.

Nucleus yes, for virtual of the same reasons Soft Machine are here - although Ian Carr was a free jazzer in the 60's while Soft Machine started in the mid 60's as a pop-soul group, progressing by producing some unique psychedelia, to some of the earliest prog to jazz rock fusion. Then there was a lsignificant amount of  transfusion of players from Nucleus to Soft Machine.

But Family??????? The early Rick Grech period maybe although the label 'post British psychedelia' fits just as well, e.g. Dolls House. But after Grech's departure to Blind Faith and so on, Chapman-Whitney developed Leicester's finest into a great hard nose rock band - and again here is an example of a band who released albums with  a few proggie tunes, but a majority of straight rock numbers - and some of these ended up in single charts. Alas they didn't break the USA - why when so many inferior bands did?

Dick Heath wrote: so on, Chapman-Whitney developed Leicester's finest into a great hard nose rock band - and again here is an example of a band who released albums with  a few proggie tunes, but a majority of straight rock numbers - and some of these ended up in single charts. Alas they didn't break the USA - why when so many inferior bands did?

My guess is exposure.  I first heard them AFTER they were defuncted and I was an obscure music junkey in the 70s.  I can't remember ever hearing one of their songs on the radio even on the college stations.  And, I don't recall ever seeing any mention of them doing concerts in the bay area.  Without that kind of even minimal exposure they had ZERO chance over here.

Spot on with your first post on this page Dick (or may I call you DrJazzRock).

So Maani, you have doubts about Supertramp’s prog credentials? You should have said so before!

I can understand why you do so, if you are basing your judgment on their later albums. I would however contend once again that "Crime of the century" is a masterpiece of prog and that their albums before that were of the prog genre. I ask again, have you heard those albums?

On this topic of 10CC in general, I don’t accept the logic that because a band was influenced by another, they are necessarily of the same genre. The Beatles clearly had a major influence on Spock’s Beard, but they are totally different bands. Neither do I accept the weary argument that "if band X is here, then so should band Y be". Each band should be judged on its own merits.

In the case of 10CC, I would argue that they did not make any albums which could be considered to be completely prog (the stated key requirement of the site), nor did they make many individual tracks which might be considered to even be pop-prog. It’s not about whether we like them or not (I like them a lot), it’s only about the type of music they made. They were a very clever group, who made educated pop with strong melodies and well written lyrics. Their albums are however devoid of any notable instrumental work, with even their rare longer tracks such as "One night in Paris" being in reality three pop based vocal songs joined together. The rare instrumentals 10CC have produced (I can only think of "How dare you" off hand) are very basic. I would suggest (and perhaps this is a topic for a new thread) that instrumental passages are core part of what makes a band prog.

Easy Livin:

This is one debate I will "join," since it is probably my single biggest bugaboo with this site.  As an aside,  I own every Supertramp album and every 10CC album, so this is an issue I feel eminently qualified to debate.

Can you explain to me what makes Crime of the Century "progressive?"  I think you are giving too much credit to the fact that it is a "concept" album, rather than to whether the music is prog or not.

For example, what makes "Hide in Your Shell" - my favorite song on COTC, and arguably one of the two most "prog" on it - more "prog" than "One Night in Paris," my favorite song on Original Soundtrack?  I'm talking about musically, instrumentally, arrangement, production, etc.  For my money, they are about equal.  But HIYS is certainly no more prog than ONIP.

Similarly, what makes the title song on COTC - the other one with the most "prog" elements - more "prog" than "Brand New Day," or even "Flying Junk?"  Again, I'm talking musically, intrsumentally, etc.

Finally, I would say that "I'm Not in Love" (the hit from Original Soundtrack) is miles beyond "Dreamer" (the hit from COTC), which is a fairly basic pop hit.

Ultimately, I doubt seriously that you could make a cogent argument in this regard - at least one that would support Supertramp at the expense of 10CC.  Indeed, my guess is that you would only end up proving my point: that either both groups are equally "prog" (if "prog" they are at all), or both groups are not prog.  But it is absurd - from a musical point of view - to argue that Supertramp is prog and 10CC is not.

Peace.

P.S.  And I have not even begun to discuss How Dare You, with songs like I Wanna Rule The World, I'M Mandy Fly Me, Iceberg and Don't Hang Up - all of which are so far beyond anything Supertramp wrote (vis-a-vis prog-ness) that it is almost ludicrous to discuss it.

heh, that's kind of funny because I don't think Supertramp or 10cc are either one prog at all.  Crime of the Century and Even in the Quietest Moments are two of the best pop-rock albums ever.  But Prog?  *cough*.  I can tell you this.  It would NEVER have occured to anyone when these records by 10cc and Supertramp came out to lump them in with KC and Gong or Yes or ELP releases of the same era. 

The thinking that "I like Prog + I like xxx album = xxx album is prog" is bad math all the way round.  I'm not accusing maani or the rest of you of that thinking in general.  But it does have over-tones in many of the threads.

And, I can't wait to throw the prog-pop window open.  Because there were a good 100 bands (especially of the campy/theatrical style) in the 70s who made really sh*tty experimental/pompous rock records.

flowerchild wrote: IMO both 10cc and Supertramp are progressive pop. And I ain't gonna explain why

what fun is that?

JMCecil wrote: heh, that's kind of funny because I don't think Supertramp or 10cc are either one prog at all.  Crime of the Century and Even in the Quietest Moments are two of the best pop-rock albums ever.  But Prog?  *cough*.  I can tell you this.  It would NEVER have occured to anyone when these records by 10cc and Supertramp came out to lump them in with KC and Gong or Yes or ELP releases of the same era.  The thinking that "I like Prog + I like xxx album = xxx album is prog" is bad math all the way round.  I'm not accusing maani or the rest of you of that thinking in general.  But it does have over-tones in many of the threads. And, I can't wait to throw the prog-pop window open.  Because there were a good 100 bands (especially of the campy/theatrical style) in the 70s who made really sh*tty experimental/pompous rock records.

No, no..u got it all wrong my friend. I don't think noone thinks like that, well I don't anyway. Why do u think that anyone thinks like that? I think like this 1, ohh what a wonderful record 2, sounds like euro-techno...3, GREAT. Example number two: 1, Ohhh..what a great record!!! 2, Sounds like prog:))  3, Great:)....and so on...get it???

JMCecil wrote: flowerchild wrote: IMO both 10cc and Supertramp are progressive pop. And I ain't gonna explain why what fun is that?

u would never know...

Prog-Brazil wrote: What pop-prog would include? America, Toto, CSNY, David Bowie, Poco, Fleetwood MAc?

I could see Bowie possibly, but none of the rest of those.

tuxon:

You say, "Why we should dispute Supertramps progressive roots and qualities is beyond me."  Yet you give no support for that declarative statement.  Indeed, I would be more likely to agree with JM that "It would NEVER have occured to anyone when these records by 10cc and Supertramp came out to lump them in with KC and Gong or Yes or ELP releases of the same era."

Again, the question is not one of "well, if Supertramp is here, then 10CC should be here" based solely on their co-influencing, or that they appeared around the same time, etc.  It is based on an analysis of their music.  In this regard, I find it interesting that, after I made my case comparing COTC with OS - and various songs with each other - neither Easy Livin nor anyone else could dispute it, except your broad-brush, over-generalized comment about "Supertramp's progressive roots" - which I question per se, and for which you seem to have no actual support.

As noted, I have followed both groups' careers from their first albums and own both of their entire oeuvres, and it would never have occurred to me to call either of them "prog," unless we include a "progressive pop" category.  Indeed, with minor exceptions the two groups are - in every respect, including composition, arrangement, approach, etc. - virtually identical.  Indeed, simplistically, if you remove the sax from Supertramp, the two groups have almost identical qualities: non-standard pop chord progressions; intelligent, even intellectual lyrics; superb multi-layered harmonies; and a sense of humor - playfulness - that is rare.  Neither one goes very far into non-standard time signatures, extended compositions, use of "symphonic" style keyboards, or any of the other characteristics generally ascribed to "prog."

No, I see no greater "progressive roots" in Supertramp than I do in 10CC.  They debuted at virtually the same time, and their "roots" are almost identical, the primary one being The Beatles.  In this regard, either they are both "prog" or they are both not "prog."  To my mind - based on a deep knowledge of both of their catalogues and a pretty good understanding of what is "prog" - either they both belong here, or neither one does, and there are no cogent arguments that can be made otherwise.

Peace.

jojim wrote: Hi, let me mingle into that conversation about 10CC and  Gentle Giant (GG). I'm 50 and still regard 10cc as a progressive band because they used parts of different styles of music in their songs. They broke the rules of "cgf" harmonies. For me it is progressive but more "pop" than the music of  e.g. GENESIS. 10CC wrote mostly songs in a clear structure as the BEATLES did. And they experimented with sounds (I'm not in love). What do you do more to be progressive? GENTLE GIANT is terrible good. I bought my first album 1973 "Three friends". I was struck by that powerful music that had so gentle moments (Here the name of the group reached it's peak meaning) Now I own nearly all of their cd. But my favorite is still "Three friends". The album is the most coherent of all - at least for me and my musical taste. There are no nerve wrecking passages, no repetitive song elements. Only at the end of the album they repeat a melodic line again and again. But this is made so intelligent and complex that you get greedy to listen to. It's so marvelous crafted, so majestic, so fluent that you might wish it will never stop. This is not the case with other albums. - "Schooldays" is made so fragile with voices that cross over in a haunting way. That is pure fun and has such an atmospheric flow. Give this album more than "one" chance - it is rewarding for the rest of your life. I listen to it since 32 years - and still like it. Music can have such a big soul.

You've more or less convinced me to get it  

Did this thread jsut move from the Prog music lounge to the non-prog section?

Does that mean I've changed your mind Maani?

Whether 10CC are progressive or not is irrelevant really. They made one of the best albums of all time (Sheet Music), two or three other great ones and they could take the piss like noone before or since. Prog rock? Probably not. Great? Certainly!

If Supertramp aren't prog, I don't know who is. Some on this site seem to regard commercial appeal as a mortal sin, but what's the point in recording 20 minute pieces of rubbish, albeit with virtuoso musicianship, if noone buys them? Supertramp had the happy knack of making great music and selling bucketloads. Nothing wrong with that - they never sold out, unlike Genesis.

Tony

Heptade wrote: I don't like cricket...I love it!

..DON'T LIKE JAMAICA...I LOVE IT....EY