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Hrychu View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 11 2024 at 08:23
Hey! There have been a couple of "best" or "favorite" prog lyricist thread. But now, let's talk about our least favorite lyricists in progressive rock for a change. List your picks and include 'samples' of their worst lyric writing. Alright. I'll go first.

5. Jon Anderson
Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love
Most of all play with the game of the age
Highest of places remain all as one with you
Giving us light and the freedom of the day
And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame
Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
4. Neal Morse
No, no - no corporate ladder
No hometown parade
The fat cats just keep getting fatter
What does it matter
3. Ronald Brand
Noise replaces calmness now
Cramed is the tube
Sweet smells of industry
Breathe the society
2. Patrick Dubuis
At king, at king together now !
Death to, death to, the tyrant !
We'll kill the king and his thieves with him !
No chance, no one will escape.
Come on against the tyrant !
We'll kill the king and his thieves with him !
1. Roine Stolt
Here she comes again, smiling like a horse
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Hi,

This is really tough ... I tend to the odd stuff and more experimental, and in that material, the "lyrics" are often a joke, and just a bunch of letters and reminds me of Eno/DBowie way back when putting up what we call 52 pickup ... throwing the card deck up in the air and where it lands, so it is!!! ... and there were a lot of lyrics done by many folks that defy any ideas. I always loved that stuff, because we were all way too inclined to follow the religiosity in the book for its "meaning" ... with total disregard to the fact that these were translations that had been corrupted for years to create an imaginary world for us to believe in ... and guess what is happening here?

I'm not sure that there is/are enough "poets" out there that write stuff and all of it is special ... I'm partial to folks like Roy Harper, where the wording is special a lot of the time ... but that is not something that is appreciated by people that think "meaning" is important ... in the end, it isn't, I never thought ... but a well placed lyric or set of words will always stand up ... and it all kinda becomes a sort of Prufrock ... women, come and go thinking of Michelangelo ... and we do the same thing!

Some think that Peter Hammill is another one way out there ... but his ability is endless and his images are well done, however personal ... genuflection in church ... so to speak ... and some folks don't like it and don't think of it as poetry, or lyrics. Bob Dylan is another ... I think he cares more for the poetry side of it than he does the meaning, knowing that tomorrow he is going to say and sing it differently ... the same song!

Likewise, how do we explain that folks loved Can with Damo, and he had no lyrics ... he was not about lyrics per se ... but the sounds and feelings that came through added something to the music that was neat. BUT, we forget that at the time, there was a HUGE theatrical element experimenting with sound and voice in the theater, and how far to take it ... to make it "real", if possible. But for that to happen we had to throw away the ideas about "meaning", and that is something that we feel we need, and in reality, we don't. We have enough for ourselves in our lives as it is.


Edited by moshkito - November 11 2024 at 18:54
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

This is really tough ... I tend to the odd stuff and more experimental, and in that material, the "lyrics" are often a joke, and just a bunch of letters and reminds me of Eno/DBowie way back when putting up what we call 52 pickup ... throwing the card deck up in the air and where it lands, so it is!!! ... and there were a lot of lyrics done by many folks that defy any ideas. I always loved that stuff, because we were all way too inclined to follow the religiosity in the book for its "meaning" ... with total disregard to the fact that these were translations that had been corrupted for years to create an imaginary world for us to believe in ... and guess what is happening here?

I'm not sure that there is/are enough "poets" out there that write stuff and all of it is special ... I'm partial to folks like Roy Harper, where the wording is special a lot of the time ... but that is not something that is appreciated by people that think "meaning" is important ... in the end, it isn't, I never thought ... but a well placed lyric or set of words will always stand up ... and it all kinda becomes a sort of Prufrock ... women, come and go thinking of Michelangelo ... and we do the same thing!

Some think that Peter Hammill is another one way out there ... but his ability is endless and his images are well done, however personal ... genuflection in church ... so to speak ... and some folks don't like it and don't think of it as poetry, or lyrics. Bob Dylan is another ... I think he cares more for the poetry side of it than he does the meaning, knowing that tomorrow he is going to say and sing it differently ... the same song!

Likewise, how do we explain that folks loved Can with Damo, and he had no lyrics ... he was not about lyrics per se ... but the sounds and feelings that came through added something to the music that was neat. BUT, we forget that at the time, there was a HUGE theatrical element experimenting with sound and voice in the theater, and how far to take it ... to make it "real", if possible. But for that to happen we had to throw away the ideas about "meaning", and that is something that we feel we need, and in reality, we don't. We have enough for ourselves in our lives as it is.

Cool. But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?

I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-realated to it.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133744
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133761

Edited by Hrychu - November 12 2024 at 02:59
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

 
...
But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?

I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-related to it.
...

Hi,

I'm not sure that you are getting the gist of what I'm saying.

There is no such thing as good or bad in lyrics, though we might think that some things don't seem right ... any actor KNOWS that one word can be said in 100 different ways, and something written this way or that would likely sound great sung this way, and horrible that way and we would say the lyrics were bad.

And these days, with the Internet, it is even "worse" ... in earlier days we had what was thought of as education, and then literature, and since then it's like ... it doesn't matter ... it's just weird to think that Neal Morse or anyone listed is about bad prog lyrics ... they would not be doing their work if they did not believe in what they do and how.

And "prog" is not the worst offender, if there is such a thing ... I would imagine that yummy yummy I got love in my tummy is really bad ... and almost 60 years old, too! Heck some folks find Chuck Berry lyrics offensive, though you're going to say it's not prog.
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Lyricists in prog often just stick in a bunch of interesting words that scan well with the music. I have no problem with that at all. Peter Nicholls of IQ is a good example of that and I'm sure you could put a whole bunch of his stuff on this thread. Greg Lake has often been criticised as well. The silly lyrics of Karn Evil 9 Part One might not go down well for many. For me though the music itself is much more important.
BTW In general I'm against negative threads. They are divisive and hopefully this will be shut down.


Edited by richardh - November 11 2024 at 21:47
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

 
...
But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?

I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-related to it.
...

Hi,

I'm not sure that you are getting the gist of what I'm saying.

There is no such thing as good or bad in lyrics...
Come on, Mosh -- whatever your "gist" is, I would suggest that you don't even believe in this simplistic notion. There are certainly good and bad lyrics (hell, even horrifically awful lyrics), just as there are good, great and utterly trash novels -- or plays, for that matter.  Given your dilettantish adherence to high-art principles, I find your statement at odds with your constant bashing of music you deem inferior. It seems to be downright hypocritical.  



 

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Peter Nicholls is very polarizing. I personally consider him one of the greatest lyricists in prog. He normally avoids the cringeworthy "moon in June" (heart/apart) rhymes, and uses linguistic surrealism to his advantage. I see the complaints about his lyrics being too "word salad-y" and "not making sense" as absolutely valid though. It's a bit like expressionist art. Also, to me, what sets Nicholls' lyrics way higher than Jon Anderson's in terms of quality is the style. Jon Anderson's lyrics just look so obviously random and 'disguised amateurish' in contrast. It's a bit like comparing Pablo Picasso's abstract pieces to a 5 year old's scribbles.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

 
...
But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?

I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-related to it.
...


Hi,

I'm not sure that you are getting the gist of what I'm saying.

There is no such thing as good or bad in lyrics...

Come on, Mosh -- whatever your "gist" is, I would suggest that you don't even believe in this simplistic notion. There are certainly good and bad lyrics (hell, even horrifically awful lyrics), just as there are good, great and utterly trash novels -- or plays, for that matter.  Given your dilettantish adherence to high-art principles, I find your statement at odds with your constant bashing of music you deem inferior. It seems to be downright hypocritical.
Just here to chime in and agreeing with The Dark Elf here. Until quite recently I used to think "well ok, I guess that's actually Moshkito's opinion", but lately he's been writing stuff I don't believe that he means.

Ok, while I'm here: I listen to everything and even check out newer popular music (even songs in the actual charts), so my impression is that there's far more awful lyrics written than good nowadays. None of the worst offenders create anything resembling Prog though.   

-on topic: the short period I was getting into - or rather trying to get into Porcupine Tree, I often found Steven Wilsons lyrics very on the nose and sometimes genuinely cringeworthy. But he also has his moments where music and lyrics go perfectly together. So I guess I find him uneven and not plain bad as such. I never became the biggest fan, but I still enjoy some of PT's music nevertheless.

If the lyricist isn't a native speaker of english - like myself, I'm usually very forgiving. I don't mind a little clumsiness - or vocalists like Damo Suzuki - who seem to be mainly just playing with words. Vocalists that rub me the wrong way are much worse than bad lyricism.
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Moshkito. You need to practice Logorrhea management real bad. It's not really criticism, more like a friendly advice.
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Hi,

It's a real shame that some of you can only imagine that this is all some idealistic concept of mine about high-art, or better yet ... internet art!

For the longest time, up until the Internet age not everything was "known" and there seemed to be a distinction between the artistic stuff (as defined by academia more or less) and the rest ... today, there is no such thing, and honestly, I'm glad of it ... but some folks still go around thinking that the "high art" stuff is not as important as some of the other crap ... I'm don't think of it that way ... what might be considered "high art" by some of the folks here, is not me!

Lyrics, like a lot of literature, are gloriously illusive ... and folks here are not happy with someone saying something they do not agree with because it is not the popular ash kissing sentiment ... not to mention that tomorrow's expression will be totally different and a new "art" form. One could even suggest some of these folks are experimenting with words to add to their music in some cases.


Edited by moshkito - November 12 2024 at 04:34
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It's a real shame that some of you can only imagine that this is all some idealistic concept of mine about high-art, or better yet ... internet art!

For the longest time, up until the Internet age not everything was "known" and there seemed to be a distinction between the artistic stuff (as defined by academia more or less) and the rest ... today, there is no such thing, and honestly, I'm glad of it ... but some folks still go around thinking that the "high art" stuff is not as important as some of the other crap ... I'm don't think of it that way ... what might be considered "high art" by some of the folks here, is not me!

Lyrics, like a lot of literature, are gloriously illusive ... and folks here are not happy with someone saying something they do not agree with because it is not the popular ash kissing sentiment ... not to mention that tomorrow's expression will be totally different and a new "art" form. One could even suggest some of these folks are experimenting with words to add to their music in some cases.

You are the most illusive though, despite your long posts. LOL
Can you be on topic for once and be on point?! LOL
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Jon Anderson
Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love
Most of all play with the game of the age
Highest of places remain all as one with you
Giving us light and the freedom of the day
And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame
Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock song.
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Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Jon Anderson
Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love
Most of all play with the game of the age
Highest of places remain all as one with you
Giving us light and the freedom of the day
And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame
Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock song.

Foolish?! LOL Bad lyrics can ruin the listening experience no matter the genre. it's no different with prog. 

And Yes lyrics are problematic, half of the time people don't know what they mean LOL. Even the lyrics above fall in this category. LOL
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Jon Anderson
Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love
Most of all play with the game of the age
Highest of places remain all as one with you
Giving us light and the freedom of the day
And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame
Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock song.

Foolish?! LOL Bad lyrics can ruin the listening experience no matter the genre. it's no different with prog. 

And Yes lyrics are problematic, half of the time people don't know what they mean LOL. Even the lyrics above fall in this category. LOL
One must just gasp at the audacity of calling the Yes lyrics "problematic" within a genre literally built on confusing narratives and ponderings on existence—it's almost like one would expect Shakespearean clarity from a band named after a fish! Indeed, if one were to deconstruct many a prog rock anthem, the lyrics would likely find themselves lost in some sort of labyrinthine web of metaphors that even the most seasoned of philosophers might raise an eyebrow at. But fear not, kind interlocutor; as much as your quip about the unintelligibility of lyrics might carry some truth, it is somewhat hypocritical coming from a man who appears to take such glee in his own misunderstanding—the reading glasses are kept in the drawer for a reason; perhaps it's time to whip them out before complaining about the small print!
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A movement is accomplished in six stages
and the seventh brings return
seven is the number of the young light
it falls when darkness is increased by one

It might be as uncomprehensible as some of Jon's lyrics, until you realize that Syd is talking about the "I Ching"
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Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Jon Anderson
Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love
Most of all play with the game of the age
Highest of places remain all as one with you
Giving us light and the freedom of the day
And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame
Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock song.

Foolish?! LOL Bad lyrics can ruin the listening experience no matter the genre. it's no different with prog. 

And Yes lyrics are problematic, half of the time people don't know what they mean LOL. Even the lyrics above fall in this category. LOL
One must just gasp at the audacity of calling the Yes lyrics "problematic" within a genre literally built on confusing narratives and ponderings on existence—it's almost like one would expect Shakespearean clarity from a band named after a fish! Indeed, if one were to deconstruct many a prog rock anthem, the lyrics would likely find themselves lost in some sort of labyrinthine web of metaphors that even the most seasoned of philosophers might raise an eyebrow at. But fear not, kind interlocutor; as much as your quip about the unintelligibility of lyrics might carry some truth, it is somewhat hypocritical coming from a man who appears to take such glee in his own misunderstanding—the reading glasses are kept in the drawer for a reason; perhaps it's time to whip them out before complaining about the small print!

You don't have to get all sarcastic and rude because someone disagrees with you. 

I agree with hrychu here, i think the Madrigal lyrics are not good. 
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For the record, Madrigal is my #1 favorite track on Tormato. Except for the nonsense lyrics. I mean, "seventh age"? Like, why is that specific era significant for those "sacred ships" to sail? Is it the same thing as the "Golden Age" mentioned earlier in the song? Is it something else? Man, Jon Anderson must've been tripping hard.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

... and folks here are not happy with someone saying something they do not agree with because it is not the popular ash kissing sentiment ...
Indeed. If I don't agree with some lyrics and its not an ass kissing sentiment, I'll turn the music off straight away. Because agreement and ass kissing is all I look for in art. I'm sure everyone else here except for you, feel the same.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

One could even suggest some of these folks are experimenting with words to add to their music in some cases.
Really? Some artists actually experiment with words?? I've never thought of it that way before. This changes everything! Ice Spice lyrics aren't bad. She's just experimenting with words.

Think you the sh*t, bitch?
You not even the fart (Grrah)
I be goin' hard (Grrah)
I'm breakin' they hearts, like
Bitches be quick, but I'm quicker (Like)
Bitches be thick, but I'm thicker (Like)
She could be rich, but I'm richer (Damn)

-I know we all look very small from up there on your high horse. But maybe you should try and get down from it.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:


Think you the sh*t, bitch?
You not even the fart (Grrah)
I be goin' hard (Grrah)
I'm breakin' they hearts, like
Bitches be quick, but I'm quicker (Like)
Bitches be thick, but I'm thicker (Like)
She could be rich, but I'm richer (Damn)
A phenomenal example of rebelious dada potery A true masterpiece if you ask me. Another fantastic experimental avant-garde piece of lyrics is Old Pop in an Oak by a certain progressive country band from Bunkeflo, ID.

Old pop in an oak, pop in an oak
Once you could hear the older sucker lingo show
Thought I ever gonna see my old pop in an oak
Ever gonna see his old pipe in a smoke
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Joined: July 09 2019
Location: Kansas City
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Points: 11499 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:48
^^In the PA forum rules it states personal insults are not allowed. Or does that apply to only certain members?


Edited by Grumpyprogfan - November 12 2024 at 06:50
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