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Topic: Worst prog lyricistsPosted By: Hrychu
Subject: Worst prog lyricists
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 08:23
Hey! There have been a couple of "best" or "favorite" prog lyricist thread. But now, let's talk about our least favorite lyricists in progressive rock for a change. List your picks and include 'samples' of their worst lyric writing. Alright. I'll go first.
5. Jon Anderson Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love Most of all play with the game of the age Highest of places remain all as one with you Giving us light and the freedom of the day And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame Sacred ships do sail the seventh age 4. Neal Morse No, no - no corporate ladder No hometown parade The fat cats just keep getting fatter What does it matter 3. Ronald Brand Noise replaces calmness now Cramed is the tube Sweet smells of industry Breathe the society 2. Patrick Dubuis At king, at king together now ! Death to, death to, the tyrant ! We'll kill the king and his thieves with him ! No chance, no one will escape. Come on against the tyrant ! We'll kill the king and his thieves with him ! 1. Roine Stolt Here she comes again, smiling like a horse
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Replies: Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 18:46
Hi,
This is really tough ... I tend to the odd stuff and more experimental, and in that material, the "lyrics" are often a joke, and just a bunch of letters and reminds me of Eno/DBowie way back when putting up what we call 52 pickup ... throwing the card deck up in the air and where it lands, so it is!!! ... and there were a lot of lyrics done by many folks that defy any ideas. I always loved that stuff, because we were all way too inclined to follow the religiosity in the book for its "meaning" ... with total disregard to the fact that these were translations that had been corrupted for years to create an imaginary world for us to believe in ... and guess what is happening here?
I'm not sure that there is/are enough "poets" out there that write stuff and all of it is special ... I'm partial to folks like Roy Harper, where the wording is special a lot of the time ... but that is not something that is appreciated by people that think "meaning" is important ... in the end, it isn't, I never thought ... but a well placed lyric or set of words will always stand up ... and it all kinda becomes a sort of Prufrock ... women, come and go thinking of Michelangelo ... and we do the same thing!
Some think that Peter Hammill is another one way out there ... but his ability is endless and his images are well done, however personal ... genuflection in church ... so to speak ... and some folks don't like it and don't think of it as poetry, or lyrics. Bob Dylan is another ... I think he cares more for the poetry side of it than he does the meaning, knowing that tomorrow he is going to say and sing it differently ... the same song!
Likewise, how do we explain that folks loved Can with Damo, and he had no lyrics ... he was not about lyrics per se ... but the sounds and feelings that came through added something to the music that was neat. BUT, we forget that at the time, there was a HUGE theatrical element experimenting with sound and voice in the theater, and how far to take it ... to make it "real", if possible. But for that to happen we had to throw away the ideas about "meaning", and that is something that we feel we need, and in reality, we don't. We have enough for ourselves in our lives as it is.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 20:33
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
This is really tough ... I tend to the odd stuff and more experimental, and in that material, the "lyrics" are often a joke, and just a bunch of letters and reminds me of Eno/DBowie way back when putting up what we call 52 pickup ... throwing the card deck up in the air and where it lands, so it is!!! ... and there were a lot of lyrics done by many folks that defy any ideas. I always loved that stuff, because we were all way too inclined to follow the religiosity in the book for its "meaning" ... with total disregard to the fact that these were translations that had been corrupted for years to create an imaginary world for us to believe in ... and guess what is happening here?
I'm not sure that there is/are enough "poets" out there that write stuff and all of it is special ... I'm partial to folks like Roy Harper, where the wording is special a lot of the time ... but that is not something that is appreciated by people that think "meaning" is important ... in the end, it isn't, I never thought ... but a well placed lyric or set of words will always stand up ... and it all kinda becomes a sort of Prufrock ... women, come and go thinking of Michelangelo ... and we do the same thing!
Some think that Peter Hammill is another one way out there ... but his ability is endless and his images are well done, however personal ... genuflection in church ... so to speak ... and some folks don't like it and don't think of it as poetry, or lyrics. Bob Dylan is another ... I think he cares more for the poetry side of it than he does the meaning, knowing that tomorrow he is going to say and sing it differently ... the same song!
Likewise, how do we explain that folks loved Can with Damo, and he had no lyrics ... he was not about lyrics per se ... but the sounds and feelings that came through added something to the music that was neat. BUT, we forget that at the time, there was a HUGE theatrical element experimenting with sound and voice in the theater, and how far to take it ... to make it "real", if possible. But for that to happen we had to throw away the ideas about "meaning", and that is something that we feel we need, and in reality, we don't. We have enough for ourselves in our lives as it is.
Cool. But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?
I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-realated to it. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133744" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133744 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133761" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133761
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 20:59
Hrychu wrote:
...
But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?
I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-related to it. ...
Hi,
I'm not sure that you are getting the gist of what I'm saying.
There is no such thing as good or bad in lyrics, though we might think that some things don't seem right ... any actor KNOWS that one word can be said in 100 different ways, and something written this way or that would likely sound great sung this way, and horrible that way and we would say the lyrics were bad.
And these days, with the Internet, it is even "worse" ... in earlier days we had what was thought of as education, and then literature, and since then it's like ... it doesn't matter ... it's just weird to think that Neal Morse or anyone listed is about bad prog lyrics ... they would not be doing their work if they did not believe in what they do and how.
And "prog" is not the worst offender, if there is such a thing ... I would imagine that yummy yummy I got love in my tummy is really bad ... and almost 60 years old, too! Heck some folks find Chuck Berry lyrics offensive, though you're going to say it's not prog.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 21:46
Lyricists in prog often just stick in a bunch of interesting words that scan well with the music. I have no problem with that at all. Peter Nicholls of IQ is a good example of that and I'm sure you could put a whole bunch of his stuff on this thread. Greg Lake has often been criticised as well. The silly lyrics of Karn Evil 9 Part One might not go down well for many. For me though the music itself is much more important.
BTW In general I'm against negative threads. They are divisive and hopefully this will be shut down.
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 22:02
moshkito wrote:
Hrychu wrote:
...
But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?
I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-related to it. ...
Hi,
I'm not sure that you are getting the gist of what I'm saying.
There is no such thing as good or bad in lyrics...
Come on, Mosh -- whatever your "gist" is, I would suggest that you don't even believe in this simplistic notion. There are certainly good and bad lyrics (hell, even horrifically awful lyrics), just as there are good, great and utterly trash novels -- or plays, for that matter. Given your dilettantish adherence to high-art principles, I find your statement at odds with your constant bashing of music you deem inferior. It seems to be downright hypocritical.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 11 2024 at 22:49
Peter Nicholls is very polarizing. I personally consider him one of the greatest lyricists in prog. He normally avoids the cringeworthy "moon in June" (heart/apart) rhymes, and uses linguistic surrealism to his advantage. I see the complaints about his lyrics being too "word salad-y" and "not making sense" as absolutely valid though. It's a bit like expressionist art. Also, to me, what sets Nicholls' lyrics way higher than Jon Anderson's in terms of quality is the style. Jon Anderson's lyrics just look so obviously random and 'disguised amateurish' in contrast. It's a bit like comparing Pablo Picasso's abstract pieces to a 5 year old's scribbles.
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 01:24
The Dark Elf wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hrychu wrote:
...
But can you for once stick to the frikkin' topic, Mosh, and list your top worst prog lyricists?
I mean. It's not the first time you COMPLETELY ignore the general idea of a forum topic and instead write some vanilla commentary semi-related to it. ...
Hi,
I'm not sure that you are getting the gist of what I'm saying.
There is no such thing as good or bad in lyrics...
Come on, Mosh -- whatever your "gist" is, I would suggest that you don't even believe in this simplistic notion. There are certainly good and bad lyrics (hell, even horrifically awful lyrics), just as there are good, great and utterly trash novels -- or plays, for that matter. Given your dilettantish adherence to high-art principles, I find your statement at odds with your constant bashing of music you deem inferior. It seems to be downright hypocritical.
Just here to chime in and agreeing with The Dark Elf here. Until quite recently I used to think "well ok, I guess that's actually Moshkito's opinion", but lately he's been writing stuff I don't believe that he means.
Ok, while I'm here: I listen to everything and even check out newer popular music (even songs in the actual charts), so my impression is that there's far more awful lyrics written than good nowadays. None of the worst offenders create anything resembling Prog though.
-on topic: the short period I was getting into - or rather trying to get into Porcupine Tree, I often found Steven Wilsons lyrics very on the nose and sometimes genuinely cringeworthy. But he also has his moments where music and lyrics go perfectly together. So I guess I find him uneven and not plain bad as such. I never became the biggest fan, but I still enjoy some of PT's music nevertheless.
If the lyricist isn't a native speaker of english - like myself, I'm usually very forgiving. I don't mind a little clumsiness - or vocalists like Damo Suzuki - who seem to be mainly just playing with words. Vocalists that rub me the wrong way are much worse than bad lyricism.
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 03:01
Moshkito. You need to practice Logorrhea management real bad. It's not really criticism, more like a friendly advice.
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 04:30
Hi,
It's a real shame that some of you can only imagine that this is all some idealistic concept of mine about high-art, or better yet ... internet art!
For the longest time, up until the Internet age not everything was "known" and there seemed to be a distinction between the artistic stuff (as defined by academia more or less) and the rest ... today, there is no such thing, and honestly, I'm glad of it ... but some folks still go around thinking that the "high art" stuff is not as important as some of the other crap ... I'm don't think of it that way ... what might be considered "high art" by some of the folks here, is not me!
Lyrics, like a lot of literature, are gloriously illusive ... and folks here are not happy with someone saying something they do not agree with because it is not the popular ash kissing sentiment ... not to mention that tomorrow's expression will be totally different and a new "art" form. One could even suggest some of these folks are experimenting with words to add to their music in some cases.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 04:35
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
It's a real shame that some of you can only imagine that this is all some idealistic concept of mine about high-art, or better yet ... internet art!
For the longest time, up until the Internet age not everything was "known" and there seemed to be a distinction between the artistic stuff (as defined by academia more or less) and the rest ... today, there is no such thing, and honestly, I'm glad of it ... but some folks still go around thinking that the "high art" stuff is not as important as some of the other crap ... I'm don't think of it that way ... what might be considered "high art" by some of the folks here, is not me!
Lyrics, like a lot of literature, are gloriously illusive ... and folks here are not happy with someone saying something they do not agree with because it is not the popular ash kissing sentiment ... not to mention that tomorrow's expression will be totally different and a new "art" form. One could even suggest some of these folks are experimenting with words to add to their music in some cases.
You are the most illusive though, despite your long posts.
Can you be on topic for once and be on point?!
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 04:46
Hrychu wrote:
Jon Anderson Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love Most of all play with the game of the age Highest of places remain all as one with you Giving us light and the freedom of the day And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When
did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less
than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and
Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your
garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the
freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The
fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and
views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it
is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish
to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock
song.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 04:52
Starshiper wrote:
Hrychu wrote:
Jon Anderson Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love Most of all play with the game of the age Highest of places remain all as one with you Giving us light and the freedom of the day And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When
did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less
than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and
Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your
garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the
freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The
fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and
views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it
is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish
to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock
song.
Foolish?! Bad lyrics can ruin the listening experience no matter the genre. it's no different with prog.
And Yes lyrics are problematic, half of the time people don't know what they mean . Even the lyrics above fall in this category.
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 05:04
Cristi wrote:
Starshiper wrote:
Hrychu wrote:
Jon Anderson Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love Most of all play with the game of the age Highest of places remain all as one with you Giving us light and the freedom of the day And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When
did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less
than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and
Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your
garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the
freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The
fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and
views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it
is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish
to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock
song.
Foolish?! Bad lyrics can ruin the listening experience no matter the genre. it's no different with prog.
And Yes lyrics are problematic, half of the time people don't know what they mean . Even the lyrics above fall in this category.
One
must just gasp at the audacity of calling the Yes lyrics "problematic"
within a genre literally built on confusing narratives and ponderings on
existence—it's almost like one would expect Shakespearean clarity from a
band named after a fish! Indeed, if one were to deconstruct many a prog
rock anthem, the lyrics would likely find themselves lost in some sort
of labyrinthine web of metaphors that even the most seasoned of
philosophers might raise an eyebrow at. But fear not, kind interlocutor;
as much as your quip about the unintelligibility of lyrics might carry
some truth, it is somewhat hypocritical coming from a man who appears to
take such glee in his own misunderstanding—the reading glasses are kept
in the drawer for a reason; perhaps it's time to whip them out before
complaining about the small print!
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 05:04
A movement is accomplished in six stages
and the seventh brings return
seven is the number of the young light
it falls when darkness is increased by one
It might be as uncomprehensible as some of Jon's lyrics, until you realize that Syd is talking about the "I Ching"
------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 05:53
Starshiper wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Starshiper wrote:
Hrychu wrote:
Jon Anderson Cast off your garments of fear, replace them with love Most of all play with the game of the age Highest of places remain all as one with you Giving us light and the freedom of the day And if that firelight, I could match the inner flame Sacred ships do sail the seventh age
When
did you hear the Madrigal song last time? "Madrigal" is nothing less
than a tiny masterpiece; Anderson's vocals, Howe's acoustic guitar, and
Wakeman's harpsichord are only majestical! The verses "Cast off your
garments of fear, replace them with love, giving us light and the
freedom of the day," et cetera, sound like they belong in a song. The
fact that prog rock views the human voice more like an instrument and
views words as merely decorative is one of its key characteristics; it
is impossible to assess prog lyrics separately from music. It is foolish
to judge prog rock songs' lyrics the same way you would a typical rock
song.
Foolish?! Bad lyrics can ruin the listening experience no matter the genre. it's no different with prog.
And Yes lyrics are problematic, half of the time people don't know what they mean . Even the lyrics above fall in this category.
One
must just gasp at the audacity of calling the Yes lyrics "problematic"
within a genre literally built on confusing narratives and ponderings on
existence—it's almost like one would expect Shakespearean clarity from a
band named after a fish! Indeed, if one were to deconstruct many a prog
rock anthem, the lyrics would likely find themselves lost in some sort
of labyrinthine web of metaphors that even the most seasoned of
philosophers might raise an eyebrow at. But fear not, kind interlocutor;
as much as your quip about the unintelligibility of lyrics might carry
some truth, it is somewhat hypocritical coming from a man who appears to
take such glee in his own misunderstanding—the reading glasses are kept
in the drawer for a reason; perhaps it's time to whip them out before
complaining about the small print!
You don't have to get all sarcastic and rude because someone disagrees with you.
I agree with hrychu here, i think the Madrigal lyrics are not good.
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:29
For the record, Madrigal is my #1 favorite track on Tormato. Except for the nonsense lyrics. I mean, "seventh age"? Like, why is that specific era significant for those "sacred ships" to sail? Is it the same thing as the "Golden Age" mentioned earlier in the song? Is it something else? Man, Jon Anderson must've been tripping hard.
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:36
moshkito wrote:
... and folks here are not happy with someone saying something they do not agree with because it is not the popular ash kissing sentiment ...
Indeed. If I don't agree with some lyrics and its not an ass kissing sentiment, I'll turn the music off straight away. Because agreement and ass kissing is all I look for in art. I'm sure everyone else here except for you, feel the same.
moshkito wrote:
One could even suggest some of these folks are experimenting with words to add to their music in some cases.
Really? Some artists actually experiment with words?? I've never thought of it that way before. This changes everything! Ice Spice lyrics aren't bad. She's just experimenting with words.
Think you the sh*t, bitch? You not even the fart (Grrah) I be goin' hard (Grrah) I'm breakin' they hearts, like Bitches be quick, but I'm quicker (Like) Bitches be thick, but I'm thicker (Like) She could be rich, but I'm richer (Damn)
-I know we all look very small from up there on your high horse. But maybe you should try and get down from it.
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:46
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Think you the sh*t, bitch? You not even the fart (Grrah) I be goin' hard (Grrah) I'm breakin' they hearts, like Bitches be quick, but I'm quicker (Like) Bitches be thick, but I'm thicker (Like) She could be rich, but I'm richer (Damn)
A phenomenal example of rebelious dada potery A true masterpiece if you ask me. Another fantastic experimental avant-garde piece of lyrics is Old Pop in an Oak by a certain progressive country band from Bunkeflo, ID.
Old pop in an oak, pop in an oak Once you could hear the older sucker lingo show Thought I ever gonna see my old pop in an oak Ever gonna see his old pipe in a smoke
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:48
^^In the PA forum rules it states personal insults are not allowed. Or does that apply to only certain members?
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:52
Grumpyprogfan wrote:
^^In the PA forum rules it states personal insults are not allowed. Or does that apply to only certain members?
This is nothing personal ;)
BTW the voice who says "The Rednex, Shockin'!" at 2:24 mark is none other than https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3942" rel="nofollow - Nad https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4650" rel="nofollow - fricking https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9720" rel="nofollow - Sylvan https://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45912" rel="nofollow - . :D
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 06:57
Robert Wyatt is normally not a bad lyricist, but when he sings the alphabet?
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 07:30
Grumpyprogfan wrote:
Robert Wyatt is normally not a bad lyricist, but when he sings the alphabet?
Not just the alphabet. The British Alphabet, m'lud!
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 12 2024 at 08:05
richardh wrote:
Lyricists in prog often just stick in a bunch of interesting words that scan well with the music. I have no problem with that at all. Peter Nicholls of IQ is a good example of that and I'm sure you could put a whole bunch of his stuff on this thread. Greg Lake has often been criticised as well. The silly lyrics of Karn Evil 9 Part One might not go down well for many. For me though the music itself is much more important.
BTW In general I'm against negative threads. They are divisive and hopefully this will be shut down.
I don't know who wrote Greg or ELP's lyrics before Pete Sinfield arrived, but in general, him, Keith Reid (Procol), Pete Brown (Cream, and J Bruce) or Palmer James (Crimson, Supertramp & Emergency) had obscure poetry talents, which I won't condemn on the account that it doesn't make sense to me.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 04:52
Sean Trane wrote:
...
I don't know who wrote Greg or ELP's lyrics before Pete Sinfield arrived, but in general, him, Keith Reid (Procol), Pete Brown (Cream, and J Bruce) or Palmer James (Crimson, Supertramp & Emergency) had obscure poetry talents, which I won't condemn on the account that it doesn't make sense to me.
...
Hi,
I look at it a bit .... left field. I (more or less) started with the things that were called "art rock", and one of the important things for some of those works, was the POETRY, and how it was presented ... we got to understand that "lyrics" were not only mundane, but also silly, in most radio stuff in the early days, and psychedelia poked a huge hole in that idea, by making fun of it, so to speak ... but the main difference ... no one was going to confuse the poetry showing in The Moody Blues to the crap in yummy yummy I got love in my tummy ... which is the ugly stuff that "art rock" wanted to get away from.
In some ways, the word "art rock" just about makes sense here, instead of comparing the lyrics to another era or poet ... and this is the hard part of this thread, when "lyricists" are kinda comparing a lot of writers to just a bunch of songs, that ... I suppose we could say have no literary value in them? But the song became famous and sold, see?
These days, I no longer look at "lyrics" as poor poetry, or vice versa, as there are many folks out there that are quite capable, except that no one is going to publish a book of their "poetry" .... like so many did for Jim Morrison, Peter Hammill, and so others. I don't even know if Pete Brown had any books published, but we know that his "ability" with lyrics went downhill after Cream for some reason, if some of the stuff he did afterwards was a clue.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 12:33
^ Not all (possibly not many) prog lyrics would stand alone as good poetry, and conversely, much good poetry would struggle to be set to music in the form of a song. Poetry and lyrics are similar but distinct written word forms tho there is a certain amount of crossover.
------------- 'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 20:20
Floydoid wrote:
^ Not all (possibly not many) prog lyrics would stand alone as good poetry, and conversely, much good poetry would struggle to be set to music in the form of a song. Poetry and lyrics are similar but distinct written word forms tho there is a certain amount of crossover.
Hi,
Agreed ... although I think poetry has more weigh since the word has to stand up "by itself" ... as opposed to the lyrics, that are relying on some music behind to carry it, and then there is the suggestion that the music itself is a good backing for the lyrics ... many times it isn't and we immediately comment on it.
There are very few, for me, folks that are really good at illustrating lyrics, and we can almost go back 55 years and watch Mick Jagger in the film "Performance" give us the first MTV piece ... and show us how to make some lyrics stand up and then some ... I find it a really big stretch on a lot of bands these days, trying to do something as good, or as well defined ... the main issue being that rock folks hate "directors" and think they are better actors than the hackers in your local theater! And I'm not sure of many of these folks ... as my feeling is that the band would likely be getting more attention, if it were better defined and worked, although that is hearsay, and might not be valid. But, in general, bands that define these things to a really good detail, are eventually found and heard. It might take a few years as we have found with some old psychedelic stuff ... but the Internet is good at making sure that we all know it exists, heard or not.
Watch the film "Neruda" and listen to the words ... or even Ginsburg in "Tonight We All Love in London" ... where, reading his stuff doesn't click with me, but hearing him? Wow ... that is good! There aren't many rock singers that can even come close to that quality ... because a lot of the words themselves are not as important as the band, or the song itself, which has the famous riff, etc, etc, etc. And, in many ways this was the art in Led Zeppelin that helped them a lot ... it was very theatrical for some time and RP made sure that it was understood, though many men don't like it because it is so sexy for a lot of women. But, for RP, it was very real, and not fake, and this is a massive difference.
Compare this to BD, with YES, when I saw them one of the the last tours by Chris Squire and BD was totally out of it, did not know or understand the lyrics and was using 1000 year old had gestures to make it look like all he sang had meaning ... I can't believe that YES even allowed something like that to take place. It was a real shame to see that. I kinda thought at that point that Jon's words were just really poor ... and while some of them are not great, he is way better than seeing this ... at least he knows what he means and sings like it!
Kinda reminds me of the mid 60's with Sgt Pepper's that all of a sudden got a bunch of copy kat bands ... doing fun things ... but I'm not sure that we will confuse Winchester Cathedral with poor, or good lyrics!
I don't think that there are "worst" lyricists per se, since so much of it is blended into that band's specific work which makes it harder to say something about it ... and then we have Francesco (Banco) singing, and we don't even know if the lyrics are good or bad, but it sure sounds good. The same for Francis Decamps in Ange ... but at least, by the attitude and feeling around it, that the lyrics are important ... and specially so, in France, where the wording had been a major issue in theater, and then their music. It has to have that incredible depth of feeling and emotion or it was considered crap.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com