The forum and the Big Muddy - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986

Topic: The forum and the Big Muddy
Posted: July 18 2024 at 13:11

When I joined this music forum, I was very proud that we could talk about anything. In the early days I would only comment on music, I wanted to see how the forumists were doing with topics of social and political interest. Being a US-based forum, I read the thread on American politics with interest and it took me a long time before I made my first comment. Even during the covid pandemic, despite the many divergent ideas, there was discussion.

Then I started to open a few political threads. And finally came first the war against Ukraine and then the genocide in Gaza, and just when the world is in a critical condition, this forum declares failure. I say failure because to prefer silence in order to avoid exasperating tones, in order to avoid someone writing some offensive phrases, is like to declare an inability and unwillingness to face the present. In this way, the forum decides to keep a low profile, to talk only about music and entertainment. It no longer presents itself as a high-profile, high-level forum. And by preferring disengagement and silence when the world instead demands our engagement, this forum decrees that in the face of every problem (keeping the discussion within calm tones), instead of seeking a solution, it seeks to eliminate the source of the problem. In this way, as there are problems, the forum will silence itself, reducing it to a puppet.

I see nothing positive in avoiding political threads in order to ensure that fairness and respect are always maintained for all. Life is also made of mistakes, of excesses, of unsuccessful attempts, and as Carl Gustav Jung said, ‘who avoids error evades life’. This forum seems to prefer to die slowly instead of living by sometimes getting its hands dirty.

This is my opinion.

How beautiful the river flows and the birds they sing
But you and I we're messier things
There ain't no one leavin' this world buddy
Without their shirttail dirty
Or their hands bloody

Waist deep in the big muddy
Waist deep in the big muddy
You start on higher ground but end up somehow crawlin'
Waist deep in the big muddy

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

presdoug

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8615

Posted: July 18 2024 at 14:04

I hate Bruce Springsteen's music.

Lewian

Prog Reviewer

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14728

Posted: July 18 2024 at 15:39

Well, personally I'm fine with political discussion and I'm not the one to call to shut it down. But I see why many have a different view on this. These discussions sometimes bring out the worst in people, and it may well be that in terms of numbers of members and contributions they hurt the forum more than they help. Also there are other places on the internet and in life to discuss these things.

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65254

Posted: July 18 2024 at 16:01

jamesbaldwin wrote:

Life is also made of mistakes, of excesses, of unsuccessful attempts, and as Carl Gustav Jung said, ‘who avoids error evades life’. This forum seems to prefer to die slowly instead of living by sometimes getting its hands dirty.

“You have no enemies, you say? Alas, my friend, the boast is poor. He who has mingled in the fray of duty that the brave endure, must have made foes. If you have none, small is the work that you have done. You’ve hit no traitor on the hip. You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip. You’ve never turned the wrong to right. You’ve been a coward in the fight.”
―- Charles Mackay

Of course, the very posting of that poem is likely to bother someone. And so it is. You're a hero, and then you're not. I take partial responsibility for the banishment of political threads, both because I was one of the offenders and also because I was one of the strongest proponents of not allowing them.

Though not without some loss, of friends and face and former grace
And with reflections of the harshest moments we've endured
And all the things the ego craves, comes with the price we pay.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

moshkito

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17510

Posted: July 18 2024 at 19:20

Hi,

I came from a time of political persecution and hidden everything, in a Fascist Government. My parents never discussed it, and the big reason for my dad to drop a Naval career, to a writer, while seemingly well intended from an artist perspective and his first return on his PHD work on the poet Camoes, which got his massive kudos and brought us to America.

The parents NEVER discussed the political thing or made any comments, and I now believe that they were pretty much told, or threatened in some way, and things did not end there. Dad passed away in 1979, and mom continued some of his work, and she ended up publishing more of his work than he did all his life. But the political nonsense continued.

Several years later, a Father Simao showed up at the house in Santa Barbara. My mom was always an open guest to many Graduate Students who made use of the library (many works in Portuguese, Spanish and Brazilian literature have NEVER been indexed) that has become for me ... the meaningless trash of so many things today ... for no one to see it and appreciate it, or even realize that so much stuff is still unknown and not "found", just like it has happened with our "progressive music" nowadays. A week passes by and Father Simao leaves, and my mom happens to be talking to the Consulate in San Francisco and she wanted to say hi to him, and thanked the visit ... and the Consulate looked at all the records and called Portugal ... there was no Father Simao.

I have been, and will always continue to be politically quiet, specially in a place where some folks are afraid of the voice of the words and wording of things ... how quickly we forget, how much of it was a very important part of so much PROGRESSIVE MUSIC we love ... but nowadays, who cares ... it's all about a song and its numbers somewhere or other ... thus, the idea of taking away the political edge, is important ... how can we not discuss the "songs" and their importance, and sink low to a political something or other? Honestly, I know we can't ... our family lost members after the Portuguese Salazar went down. I, honestly, do not want to see more Epitaphs in my life, specially when they are, above all .. senseless and disregardful of the prettiest value of the human spirit ... ART ... but we think that the fight and wars of this and that are more important, for some reason, which (FOR ME) kinda states ... we don't care about the music anyway!

Because otherwise, we would stand up for it even more instead.

I don't want to see PA hurt, or destroyed, but maybe we should have a thread for nothing but political nonsense, and let folks fight it out over there, just like there are kids' parks in many cities in the middle of all the smog, and everything else.

But it is hard, to not feel a tear, and not cry, when we see something that a while back was very bad and many of us fought to make sure it didn't die.

These are tough times ... I have no answer ... the PA Admins will do what they see best, in a thankless job made bad, by folks posting emotional comments that should not exactly be discussed here on PA at all, but spilt tea is going to sour someone's palate and ruin their dress or jeans!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

King of Loss View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16442

Posted: July 19 2024 at 10:02

I remember when this place was chaos and it was fun. No trolling though but at times it got pretty heated.

It's up to the admins ultimately what they should and should not allow.

jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986

Posted: July 19 2024 at 17:57

It's clear that there is no obligation to talk about politics.

But a forum is meant for discussion. If every problematic discussion is shut down, the forum doesnt work.

I realize that some forumists have knowingly ruined political discussions, I remember some who would intervene in threads I opened to raise the tone and then say those threads should be closed, but if the administrators closed them, they were hostage to that elements that ruin the forum.

The moderation of the forum is important, and it should not express itself by closing threads but by providing clear and simple rules of behavior and by being in dialogue with those who do not abide by them. Find solutions.

I left this forum because I saw that it had become a tool of censorship on par with the media and social media. But it is precisely private forums like this one that should be the refuge from "Facebook", that censors certain videos, certain photos and certain statements because it becomes a functional tool for certain war propaganda.

Now I came back to see what you were saying about the attempted assassination of Trump and I see two threads closed right away. It's a great sadness. There are Russians, Ukrainians, Israelis (I don't know if even Palestinians) as well as Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Turks, Japanese, etc. in here. This could be a wonderful place of comparison and instead it becomes a place of censorship in the name of being polite?

This is a clear failure.

The question is: are you happy with the way this forum is going? I have often heard of a forum that is slowly dying. A forum, to remain vital, needs confrontation and projects. Can the project of providing an annual ranking of the best prog records be enough to be alive? I think not. We end up talking about the same things all the time. There is a lack of confrontation on non-musical topics, a lack of major projects (such as the development of studied rankings by regular contributors).

In conclusion, it seems to me that this forum, apart from the problems of connection and abandonment by the owner, is, over time, becoming amorphous and less and less stimulating, due to lack of confrontation on non-musical topics and lack of broad projects on musical topics. This is an impression that I know is not only mine, and is leading in my opinion to a slow death of the forum so it seems almost my duty to express it. And since I believe that the greatest responsibility for failures always lies with those in power, I think the forum administrators should question themselves very deeply about the present and future of the forum.

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35804

Posted: July 19 2024 at 18:23

We had discussions in the collab zone on closing political topics. I would rather they remain open, but at the same time expect people to follow the rules here https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083 We're only two active admin now, I would like more, and we deal with lot of complaints.

We don't get paid to do this, I have received numerous complaints about behaviour, and deal with each of those, and that is draining It is a balancing act. I would not be against a no-holds barred forum for politics, religion, philosophy, maybe we could have porn too but then we would need rules, that one would have to additionally register for, and would help make that happen if M@x agreed (well, I'd rather not have to deal with porn). There are so many other sites to discuss politics that for me it is not worth having to monitor those threads and deal with complaints. By the way, I would like to step down as an admin, especially as a moderator, because it s time-consuming and often people complain if you don't act AND if you do act. But it is not a good time for that. There are different perspectives. Lorenzo, there may have been times as an official Prog Reviewer that the pressures of reviewing got to you despite who very much you wanted to be made one, and you might feel that you step down from that.

By the way, I did leave the Trump assassination topic open for quite some time, at least until leaving it open was made an issue of.... I really am tired of it. I wish M@x would hire some people because there are always those who complain and say you should be doing more, and those who say you should be doing less.

I have heard from various people that they did not want to post at this site due to the politics and due to the aggressive behaviour in such threads. If we could discuss without personal attacks, great. If people didn't care about personal attacks, fine too. I wish we could have them and rationally have dialectic on politics. Hey, I'll even become a really full time moderator and re-write the rules if I can get financially reimbursed for my time.

Duos for fave acts

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13056

Posted: July 19 2024 at 18:39

jamesbaldwin wrote:

How beautiful the river flows and the birds they sing

But you and I we're messier things
There ain't no one leavin' this world buddy
Without their shirttail dirty
Or their hands bloody

Waist deep in the big muddy
Waist deep in the big muddy
You start on higher ground but end up somehow crawlin'
Waist deep in the big muddy

To put Bruce's song in context, he borrowed the idea from Pete Seeger's "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy", an anti-war song. Here is an excerpt:

Well, I'm not going to point any moral,
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're, waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

siLLy puPPy View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15243

Posted: July 19 2024 at 19:20

Yeah, an animal porn thread is what this forum needs!

Do it doggie style wit da beechez!

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35804

Posted: July 19 2024 at 19:34

^ I''d be down for a Shih Tzu massage, but not "animal porn". Any such forum, which I'm not seriously suggesting, would be subject to certain laws. Like none underage, especially not silly puppies. I have thought that a PA fight club might be fun, but hidden to most (only those with special permissions would be allowed). No holds barred, and no harm to [non-human] animals -- so keep your fighting squirrels at home, or at least in your pants at all times while participating. I wonder if people would be more up in arms if we embraced all music like rateyourmusic or embraced porn like Pornhub (the former would seem obvious).

ProgHub, your ultimate guide to sexy prog. Geddy-up li'l dogies for the Frippin' ride of your life.

Edited by Logan - July 19 2024 at 19:36

Duos for fave acts

siLLy puPPy View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15243

Posted: July 19 2024 at 20:14

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy

Jared

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19281

Posted: July 19 2024 at 23:31

Personally, I don't come here to talk politics and never will do. I have my own 'left of centre' views which I'm comfortable with in my own skin and don't feel the urgent need to share them with forum members who happen to like a similar style of music to me.

If I was an Admin, I wouldn't want to see them banned outright, but I have a great deal of sympathy for Greg's position, eloquently stated above. I know I've said it many times, but the PA forum today is almost unrecognisable from the one which existed 20 years ago. In terms of active members, back then it could have been described as large town, whereas now it has been reduced to a village. As Greg says, there are only two Admins, whereas for a good many years, there used to be 5, with others waiting in the wings to take their place when they'd had enough.

Back then, there were more political threads and whereas many of them managed to stay respectful and dignified, others became like the wild west, especially across the Republican/ Democrat divide in the US. Of course I have no stats to back this up, but I can remember several forum members being banned as a consequence of having overstepped the line in heated political threads, and this may well be the main reason for involuntary expulsions from PA over the years.

When you have 5 or 6 times the number of active forum members than we do today, you can remain unaffected to a large degree, but when there are so few members it's harder to hide from the resulting unpleasantness, which has been known to spill over into other threads unconnected with politics.

I think we'd all agree that we don't say 'thank you' to our Admins as often as we should for maintaining the forum as well as they do and I think we should be guided by their feelings in this regard.

Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65254

Posted: July 20 2024 at 01:11

Something that should be pointed out is that politics in the U.S. and the world has changed.   The election of Donald Trump was a catalyst for intense feelings, and those feelings will impact discussions here.   But it is no one's fault ~ other than those who support him ~ that a madman came to power, and that his election most certainly caused intense reactions and will affect how people talk to each other and how they're willing to express themselves.   It was inevitable that such an event would create much controversy and perceptions that must be dealt with.   When I joined this forum George Bush Jr. was president.   I never thought I'd miss the Bush's but in retrospect, Bush Jr. seems like Mr. Rogers compared to Trump, and had Hillary become President the atmosphere would be quite different.

One other factor is personal change which is separate from political upheaval.   Individuals experience growth, trauma, loss, grief, revelations, and these things will impact how they express themselves and what they're willing to say, indeed what they must say.

Both of these factors are on display here and it should be no surprise they are fundamental to how members talk to each other.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

Jared

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19281

Posted: July 20 2024 at 02:09

Hrychu wrote:

Politics is brought up and so Achron is awakened once again. Hmmm... this is a prog forum and I only see him complain about the US government here. I'd suggest leaving Progarchives (a music forum) in favor of a pure politics forum, my dear Pearland citizen.

Any more disrespect and it will be you who is booted off the site Marek... I rarely see any of your posts which can be described as constructive and if Greg or Ian were to open the trap door on you, I doubt you'll be missed by many.

Hrychu

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358

Posted: July 20 2024 at 02:10

siLLy puPPy wrote:

Yeah, an animal porn thread is what this forum needs!

Does anthro/furry qualify? :P

“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong

Hrychu

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358

Posted: July 20 2024 at 02:11

Jared wrote:

Pssst. I acted impulsively. That post is gone.

“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong

Hrychu

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358

Posted: July 20 2024 at 02:13

I doubt you'll be missed by many.

Well. That's understandable. :( Why should any of you miss me? Hey! It requires empathy. Something you guys lack. :(

“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong

jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986

Posted: July 20 2024 at 05:11

Logan wrote:

Thanks Greg.

I think you alone cannot manage to answer all the complaints even if you get paid.

This is a problem.

The link https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083

is a bit old. Of the four moderators, only Guldbamsen is consistently active.

I would be in favour of some sort of self-moderation by the person opening the thread.

The one who opens the thread could take the responsibility to call out anyone who makes personal attacks among the contributors and remind them of the policy. In this way, the author of the thread tries to assume a super partes role.

I would add to the policy that no one should intervene in a thread to call for its closure: no one is obliged to comment on arguments, theses, opinions he doesnt share.

Only after the thread has been moderated several times by the person who opened it, that person can turn to you (or others, if possible), to ask for an intervention calling out the rules, but directed at specific forumists.

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104

Posted: July 20 2024 at 05:37

^It’s been a while since I posted on the forum and way waaaay longer since I was a part of the admin/mod team. I some times write pm’s with some old friends here but that’s about as far as my activity goes.
Anyhoo just to mention that so as you don’t get a warped view of the current admin team and it’s abilities:)

Btw if anyone from the admin team reads this, it’d be nice to remove me from the team list so as to mitigate any sort of confusion.

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams