When I joined this music forum, I was very proud that we could talk about anything. In the early days I would only comment on music, I wanted to see how the forumists were doing with topics of social and political interest. Being a US-based forum, I read the thread on American politics with interest and it took me a long time before I made my first comment. Even during the covid pandemic, despite the many divergent ideas, there was discussion.

Then I started to open a few political threads. And finally came first the war against Ukraine and then the genocide in Gaza, and just when the world is in a critical condition, this forum declares failure. I say failure because to prefer silence in order to avoid exasperating tones, in order to avoid someone writing some offensive phrases, is like to declare an inability and unwillingness to face the present. In this way, the forum decides to keep a low profile, to talk only about music and entertainment. It no longer presents itself as a high-profile, high-level forum. And by preferring disengagement and silence when the world instead demands our engagement, this forum decrees that in the face of every problem (keeping the discussion within calm tones), instead of seeking a solution, it seeks to eliminate the source of the problem. In this way, as there are problems, the forum will silence itself, reducing it to a puppet. 

I see nothing positive in avoiding political threads in order to ensure that fairness and respect are always maintained for all. Life is also made of mistakes, of excesses, of unsuccessful attempts, and as Carl Gustav Jung said, ‘who avoids error evades life’. This forum seems to prefer to die slowly instead of living by sometimes getting its hands dirty. 

This is my opinion.

How  https://www.definitions.net/definition/beautiful" rel="nofollow - beautiful  the  https://www.definitions.net/definition/river" rel="nofollow - river  flows and the  https://www.definitions.net/definition/birds" rel="nofollow - birds  they sing
But you and I we're  https://www.definitions.net/definition/messier" rel="nofollow - messier  things
There ain't no one leavin' this  https://www.definitions.net/definition/world" rel="nofollow - world  buddy
Without  https://www.definitions.net/definition/their" rel="nofollow - their  shirttail dirty
Or  https://www.definitions.net/definition/their" rel="nofollow - their  hands bloody

Waist deep in the big muddy
Waist deep in the big muddy
You  https://www.definitions.net/definition/start" rel="nofollow - start  on  https://www.definitions.net/definition/higher" rel="nofollow - higher  ground but end up  https://www.definitions.net/definition/somehow" rel="nofollow - somehow  crawlin'
Waist deep in the big muddy

I came from a time of political persecution and hidden everything, in a Fascist Government. My parents never discussed it, and the big reason for my dad to drop a Naval career, to a writer, while seemingly well intended from an artist perspective and his first return on his PHD work on the poet Camoes, which got his massive kudos and brought us to America.

The parents NEVER discussed the political thing or made any comments, and I now believe that they were pretty much told, or threatened in some way, and things did not end there. Dad passed away in 1979, and mom continued some of his work, and she ended up publishing more of his work than he did all his life. But the political nonsense continued. 

Several years later, a Father Simao showed up at the house in Santa Barbara. My mom was always an open guest to many Graduate Students who made use of the library (many works in Portuguese, Spanish and Brazilian literature have NEVER been indexed) that has become for me ... the meaningless trash of so many things today ... for no one to see it and appreciate it, or even realize that so much stuff is still unknown and not "found", just like it has happened with our "progressive music" nowadays. A week passes by and Father Simao leaves, and my mom happens to be talking to the Consulate in San Francisco and she wanted to say hi to him, and thanked the visit ... and the Consulate looked at all the records and called Portugal ... there was no Father Simao.

I have been, and will always continue to be politically quiet, specially in a place where some folks are afraid of the voice of the words and wording of things ... how quickly we forget, how much of it was a very important part of so much PROGRESSIVE MUSIC we love ... but nowadays, who cares ... it's all about a song and its numbers somewhere or other ... thus, the idea of taking away the political edge, is important ... how can we not discuss the "songs" and their importance, and sink low to a political something or other? Honestly, I know we can't ... our family lost members after the Portuguese Salazar went down. I, honestly, do not want to see more Epitaphs in my life, specially when they are, above all .. senseless and disregardful of the prettiest value of the human spirit ... ART ... but we think that the fight and wars of this and that are more important, for some reason, which (FOR ME) kinda states ... we don't care about the music anyway! 

Because otherwise, we would stand up for it even more instead.

I don't want to see PA hurt, or destroyed, but maybe we should have a thread for nothing but political nonsense, and let folks fight it out over there, just like there are kids' parks in many cities in the middle of all the smog, and everything else.

But it is hard, to not feel a tear, and not cry, when we see something that a while back was very bad and many of us fought to make sure it didn't die. 

These are tough times ... I have no answer ... the PA Admins will do what they see best, in a thankless job made bad, by folks posting emotional comments that should not exactly be discussed here on PA at all, but spilt tea is going to sour someone's palate and ruin their dress or jeans!

It's up to the admins ultimately what they should and should not allow.

It's clear that there is no obligation to talk about politics. 

But a forum is meant for discussion. If every problematic discussion is shut down, the forum doesnt work. 

I realize that some forumists have knowingly ruined political discussions, I remember some who would intervene in threads I opened to raise the tone and then say those threads should be closed, but if the administrators closed them, they were hostage to that elements that ruin the forum.

The moderation of the forum is important, and it should not express itself by closing threads but by providing clear and simple rules of behavior and by being in dialogue with those who do not abide by them. Find solutions.

We had discussions in the collab zone on closing political topics.  I would rather they remain open, but at the same time expect people to follow the rules here https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083 We're only two active admin now, I would like more, and we deal with lot of complaints.

We don't get paid to do this, I have received numerous complaints about behaviour, and deal with each of those, and that is draining  It is a balancing act.  I would not be against a no-holds barred forum for politics, religion, philosophy, maybe we could have porn too but then we would need rules, that one would have to additionally register for, and would help make that happen if M@x agreed (well, I'd rather not have to deal with porn).  There are so many other sites to discuss politics that for me it is not worth having to monitor those threads and deal with complaints.  By the way, I would like to step down as an admin, especially as  a moderator, because it s time-consuming and often people complain if you don't act AND if you do act. But it is not a good time for that.  There are different perspectives.  Lorenzo, there may have been times as an official Prog Reviewer that the pressures of reviewing got to you despite who very much you wanted to be made one, and you might feel that you step down from that.

By the way, I did leave the Trump assassination topic open for quite some time, at least until leaving it open was made an issue of....  I really am tired of it.  I wish M@x would hire some people because there are always those who complain and say you should be doing more, and those who say you should be doing less.

I have heard from various people that they did not want to post at this site due to the politics and due to the aggressive behaviour in such threads.  If we could discuss without personal attacks, great.  If people didn't care about personal attacks, fine too.  I wish we could have them and rationally have dialectic on politics.  Hey, I'll even become  a really full time moderator and re-write the rules if I can get financially reimbursed for my time.

^ I''d be down for a Shih Tzu massage, but not "animal porn". Any such forum, which I'm not seriously suggesting, would be subject to certain laws. Like none underage, especially not silly puppies.  I have thought that a PA fight club might be fun, but hidden to most (only those with special permissions would be allowed). No holds barred, and no harm to [non-human] animals -- so keep your fighting squirrels at home, or at least in your pants at all times while participating.  I wonder if people would be more up in arms if we embraced all music like rateyourmusic or embraced porn like Pornhub (the former would seem obvious).  

^

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If I was an Admin, I wouldn't want to see them banned outright, but I have a great deal of sympathy for Greg's position, eloquently stated above. I know I've said it many times, but the PA forum today is almost unrecognisable from the one which existed 20 years ago. In terms of active members, back then it could have been described as large town, whereas now it has been reduced to a village. As Greg says, there are only two Admins, whereas for a good many years, there used to be 5, with others waiting in the wings to take their place when they'd had enough.

Back then, there were more political threads and whereas many of them managed to stay respectful and dignified, others became like the wild west, especially across the Republican/ Democrat divide in the US. Of course I have no stats to back this up, but I can remember several forum members being banned as a consequence of having overstepped the line in heated political threads, and this may well be the main reason for involuntary expulsions from PA over the years.

When you have 5 or 6 times the number of active forum members than we do today, you can remain unaffected to a large degree, but when there are so few members it's harder to hide from the resulting unpleasantness, which has been known to spill over into other threads unconnected with politics.

I think we'd all agree that we don't say 'thank you' to our Admins as often as we should for maintaining the forum as well as they do and I think we should be guided by their feelings in this regard.

Any more disrespect and it will be you who is booted off the site Marek... I rarely see any of your posts which can be described as constructive and if Greg or Ian were to open the trap door on you, I doubt you'll be missed by many.

Though I haven't been active on the forums for a while, I visit it every day, and occasionally log in to see if there is something going on in the Collab section. As I have said on many occasions, I will always have a special place for ProgArchives in my heart, and am looking forward to celebrating 20 years as a member of the site in 2025.

The reason why I don't post any longer has nothing to do with politics, but rather with loss of interest in discussing music. However, in the past few years I have noticed that the general atmosphere has become less and less inviting. The word that comes to my mind when I think of what PA looks like now is "dour". This is quite evident in the music threads, but gets even worse if politics comes into the mix.

Let me be quite frank now. Politics has become poison, and allowing discussion of political issues is destructive for any forum that does not have a purely political focus. We can prattle every minute of the day about how important it is to confront different ideas and be constructive about it, but I'm afraid the horse has bolted now, and no locking of the stable doors after the fact will help. Those who would like to see an open and respectful exchange of views, or such wishful thinking as self-moderation, are deluding themselves. News sites have been forced to close the comments section (unless, like the New York Times, they can employ a team of moderators to do the job) to stop people from spewing venom or posting conspiracy theories.

PA now has two mods, neither of whom is paid for their job. Please stop asking them to do more than they already do. If you want to discuss politics, religion, porn or whatever else, there's plenty of outlets on the Internet that will allow you to do that. ProgressiveEars banned politics and religion years ago, and the forum is not doing worse than PA is. It is not by turning PA into a bad imitation of social media that you will revive it.

Hi, 

I think the issue here would be something that the Admins are, possibly, not doing ... and the part that makes things "dour" for me, is seeing many Admins actually participate in many of those discussions, instead of immediately locking them out, or, at the very least, put on a very large warning to the folks that are taking advantage of the situation, and ignoring the music altogether.

It could have a negative component to it, but, sometimes a few drastic measures are required.

But this is a very DIFFICULT thing to process. All of the top albums in the "Progressive" history have some form of politics in it, even if some of it is cleaned out a bit ... how can we just think of Epitaph as some song, when we know that folks were getting blown up by that other faction, and the VietNam war was still in its heyday of bombs and total destruction, and then a song about megalomaniacs, and then a song about you and I don't listen anyway ... it just keeps going. Tarkus is also about conflict.

And a lot of bands were up front of this, and the sad thing, is when Jon Anderson had the thought that what we needed was some more internal beauty ... and one of the players called it some sour, badly cooked stuff, and his playing was his best ever, when compared to some other stuff he went on to do. 

This kind of attitude, by a player hurts ... and his having no class to appreciate it as a total composition, for me, just shows his appreciation for music ... limited to what he knows and he doesn't like the rest and we think he is great because of the cheap capes in color.

Raff wrote: ... Let me be quite frank now. Politics has become poison, and allowing discussion of political issues is destructive for any forum that does not have a purely political focus.  ...

I disagree. Politics is not different than discussing your next curry or time in the loo! But the point is that some folks believe their God is greater than the Universes and the Earth itself ... and for this they fight an imaginary battle which they "can not lose".

I'll tell you what is sick ... that after thousands of years, the same places on this earth are still fighting ... and no one has any interest whatsoever to bring a flower and some love to that place until someone gets exterminated! AND, we end up taking it out on the lesser ones, who are but pawns in a much bigger game with squares on it!

And this is the part that could be improved, but the Admins would have to be aware of someone's obvious intent ... to flame the steak to a burnt crisp and then call it revenge! That specific person should not be welcome here!

Raff wrote: ... PA now has two mods, neither of whom is paid for their job. Please stop asking them to do more than they already do. If you want to discuss politics, religion, porn or whatever else, there's plenty of outlets on the Internet that will allow you to do that. ProgressiveEars banned politics and religion years ago, and the forum is not doing worse than PA is. It is not by turning PA into a bad imitation of social media that you will revive it. ---

With one issue in terms of what I see ... all of this ... simply shows the "top" ... PA admins are representing an ideal ... and I'm not sure this is as well defined as it needs to be. Again, politics is not the issue ... the civility with which it is done is the issue, and that one is the part that needs some solid resolves ... but I am not sure that the Admins see it that way ... or perhaps PA needs a new/other Admin ... again, I have no answers. Just some thoughts.

          jamesbaldwin, I agree with your perspectives on this matter. These are precarious times we live in, and communicating with each other is so important, and vital, especially in politics...

Bentornata nella nostra famiglia, sorella Raff. Mi manchi.

That said, if you don't want to discuss or read political discussions... don't respond or read the political thread.  Just ignore it.  It's that simple.

Whatever subjects we're talking about, it would surely be nice with more respect for each other and keep the PA rules. 

Thanks for your opinion.

(Springsteen for me is like the first love, you never forget it --- however on this site I post only his particular songs, different from his typical style, such as precisely The Big Muddy, which for me can be appreciated even by those who do not like his rock)

Thanks for this message. I agree with you.

And I add: 

Instead, in Europe, war came for the first time with the invasion of Ukraine, and then every debate became a referendum for or against Putin, you can no longer discuss politics, make analysis, if you are not in favour of sending arms to Ukraine, you are a Putin supporter. Then came the propaganda, the censorship, the journalists became aggressive, the news increasingly biased. Then came 7 October and the genocide in Gaza, to which the West is no stranger: the US, Germany and Italy are the first three nations in the world to send arms to Israel. And on this fact, too, comes the propaganda, the censorship... the students occupying the universities and calling for a halt to military agreements with Israel. 

there is a growing discrepancy between the citizens and the parties: for example, in Italy the majority of the population is clearly against sending arms to Ukraine, but almost all the parties are in favour. I make no judgements here (I am against sending arms), both positions are legitimate, I just say that the majority position among the people has almost no political representation.

EU in my opinion, is losing any semblance of autonomy from the US and Israel every day.

We are really in a new situation, a new world.

Pete Seeger apparently prognosticated the PA forum's dilemma

This looks as if you don't know who is admin and who isn't.

I don't know about the other ones but this definitely isn't true; "Yours Is No Disgrace" is a protest song against the Vietnam War and contains one of Jon Anderson's least opaque set of lyrics from that period of the band.

yesss, the first few years were a wild free-for-all and it was immensely fun. 

Maani (a priest at that) was the only active admin and he had a total laissez-faire attitude

But there was plenty of trolling, but generally, it was expressed in the Mariah Carey and the successive Velvet Rooms threads - I'm sure the site woud gain some loading page rapidity if we (M@X) were to delete these threads.

Unfortunately the planet has changed since and taken a wrong turn. 

I hate the fact that we can't discuss anything anymore in here without WW3 ignition countdown starting, but sadly I went along with the political topic ban.

I would like to thank PP for obeying the ultimatum given of staying away from these topics, because we gained a few years of freedom. i wish others would've kept their promise upon their return from ban.

.

Hi,

I think these days you folks are much more careful than previously ... I, personally, do not care if any Admin participates or not, but I imagine that we would expect them to be some kind of traffic force, and hopefully things can work and no "accidents".

Again, the politics is not the issue for me ... the attitude is. And I think we need to make sure we know and understand that. ... and the other option is to remove the postings ... and make it clear to that person that the attitude is not appreciated, and is in the incorrect location for his/her posting.

According to Edward Macan's Rocking the Classics, Yes wasn't directly political but they were very utopian, as they more than any other major Progressive Rock band stressed the belief that drawing of the wisdom of ages is the key to breaking out of our cycle of social strife and entering a new period of cosmic awareness; which is not least evident in for instance the suite Close to the Edge, and which also was hoped to convey the progress from gross materialism to spiritual awareness (1997, p. 80, 81).

^ Romantic Warrior wasn't either quite apolitical, which can be seen in this excerpt from a poem entitled "The Romantic Warrior", 

written by Neville Potter and included as a part of the album's artwork :

Pick up the gauntlet warriors

sheath your swords put up your trusty lance

channel the power used to crush every foe

into giving the future a chance

Believe in yourselves old warriors bold

create a path so firm and sure

fight for the birth of the freedom of man

the end of this medieval overture.

What an inspiring poem!  It addresses my main concern.  I'm anti-war.  Let's build and not destroy.

Isaiah 2:4

Building can be planting trees and crops.  That's what I'm into.  On my property, I've planted 40 trees in the last four years...mostly magnolias.  Why not turn the warriors into farmers, doctors, nurses, and folks who fix/build homes? 

What is the second most important political policy that I care about? I want American tax money spent on America and Americans.  

I am totally against colonialism. Britain, Spain, Germany, Japan, ancient Greece and Rome were  possibly more invasive than America...but America has over 750 foreign military bases...and about a quarter of a million soldiers outside of America. Britain, Spain, Germany, Japan, ancient Greece, and Rome's invasiveness was THEN...America is NOW. 

What is the third most important political policy that I care about?  Illegal immigration.  I am not a member of any political party.  I vote according to which candidate harmonizes with my three top policy concerns.  

I'm afraid this thread hasn't changed the situation. 

Evidently most of the administrators are satisfied with the way the forum is going as it is and think it's best to limit the topics of discussion - this is beyond the fact that the moderators, Greg and Ian, cannot be omnipotent and follow every issue.

So actually, Romantic Warrior may be a concept, anti-war album.

David_D wrote: Whatever subjects we're talking about, it would surely be nice with more respect for each other and keep the PA rules.

In my case, I've finished posting my contributions in this thread. 

You can't expect people to be pretty nasty in other topics, and then suddenly very civilized in political discussions. It's about the general climate.

Just to explain better my idea.

I thank all the forumists who have expressed their opinions.

I thank the administrators, I know that sometimes it's not easy to make decisions.

Exactly.  If you don't want to discuss politics...ignore the thread.

Yes, that's quite a problem, too.

wiz_d_kidd wrote: I think PA should have a zero tolerance policy and ban (at least temporarily) anyone who starts a political thread, or hijacks an otherwise music-related thread to inject their venom -- whether it's politics, conspiracy theories, COVID misinformation, etc.

...is probably another nail in the coffin. Your phrasing make introducing some kind of political aspect sound like more of an offence than it needs to be. Politics can have it's natural place in a discussion about music. Like... in the Political Prog thread (duh)

-the only arguments against that I sympathize with are the admins/moderators working here for free...

Hrychu wrote: The main problem is not the presence of political discussion here but the tendency for PA forum members to get upset when the little prog rock comfort tub stops being their personal echo chamber. It's very easy to see in the case of political threads but it's everywhere on this forum. Like, when suddenly someone expresses an unpopular opinion, eg. "I don't like Klaus Schulze" or "I think late 1970's till 1980's prog was better than early 1970's prog"... the same kind of toxic melee flourishes.

Haha really? The toxic melee starts flourishing simply beacuse someone states that they don't like Klaus Schulze? It takes two to tango you know. Maybe work with how you interact with people first, and perhaps you can fix your main problem singlehandedly. i know I'm far from perfect myself, but I don't really have any problems to adress either.

-anyway this is about the political discussions specifically, because that's what has been shut down and closed

^We disagree. Staying away from things, people, interactions... that aren't good for you - or makes you feel uncomfortable, is a learning experience. One has to start somewhere and taking omphaloskepsis (or mine) advice into consideration is a beginning. It's not nessecarely a red herring or unhelpful. I'm sure it can appear that way. But I know starting to exersise your "ingoring skills" can be liberating and rewarding, as I speak from personal experience. I'll leave it at that.

 

-I never helped building the site into something popular or anything like that myself. It hasn't even occured to me that I should. I've just started to use this forums for posting my nonsense because other people worked on building it for me first. I'm focusing on music, but that's the only difference between me and the members who take their soapbox to Topics not related to music. Don't you want people to come visit and make use of what you've built? Isn't that the general idea? 

I think this is rather ironic considering the very first response to this thread.

It might well take two to tango, and it may well be about fixing the way interactions are handled by individuals, however I well recall posting an opinion that was looked on unfavourably by a certain poster and directly after posting my OPINION this particular poster found it necessary to follow me around and post negative comments after every post I made subsequently, and none of it was about politics.

I really can't be bothered defending every opinion I post and it is one of the main reasons why I have chosen to largely disengage from this forum.

-Anyway, I'm adressing a specific member and his claim, not this thread or the forum as a whole. Hrychu doesn't go out of his way to be polite or non-confrontational, so the resposes he often get, is to be expected. I can write that I have yet to enjoy a second of Neo-Prog or Dream Theater without getting myself into trouble, but if I state that "you, your favorite bands and your tastes in music suck", I'm asking for it.

I agree that there are certain people who come across as confrontational and so I choose to just ignore those people (and avoid "getting into trouble", whatever that means) because I don't consider myself a confrontational person. All this talk about not being able to criticise a persons favorite band or favorite anything else rather limits the range of topics somewhat and while I agree that could be likely to cause some upset, as long as it doesn't get personal then that is fine.

Saying "I don't like Dream Theatre" is different to saying "You're an idiot for liking Dream Theatre". Being hounded around the forum for professing a dislike for Dream Theatre is different again.

Hi,

I would actually like to go one step further than that ... 

How about being able to turn the thread invisible, and not show up on your browser/login?

I imagine I would only hide 3 or 4 threads, that are of no interest whatsoever ... but it would take the temptation of saying something or other that would flame someone ... 

^

Fantastic idea!