Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is Prog Metal a "fusion" genre?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Is Prog Metal a "fusion" genre?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Faul_McCartney View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: October 25 2022
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 19 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faul_McCartney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Prog Metal a "fusion" genre?
    Posted: December 14 2022 at 02:16
Is Prog Metal simply a mix of metal and prog rock in the same way jazz fusion is a mix of jazz and rock, or country rap is a fusion of country and rap? Or is it a legitimate progression of metal that builds upon and/or subverts established trends of the genre in the same way that the original progressive rock had continuity with the (mostly) psychedelic rock bands of the 60s?
Back to Top
JD View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 10:42
My personal opinion is the 'Metal' and 'Prog' and mutually exclusive.
I know that some 'Metal' bands have done songs with 'Prog elements.
But does that mean if a metal bands uses some polka elements it should be classified as metal polka?

That's for other's to debate, I say no.
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
Back to Top
Archisorcerus View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 10:52
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

My personal opinion is the 'Metal' and 'Prog' and mutually exclusive.
I know that some 'Metal' bands have done songs with 'Prog elements.
But does that mean if a metal bands uses some polka elements it should be classified as metal polka?

That's for other's to debate, I say no.

And the difference of prog metal and prog rock in this regard is?..

I think prog metal took most of its elements from prog rock. Not sure about the exact origins (I know the history, but haven't given a proper thought about the issue), but Dream Theater are/were the most illustrious torchbearers of the genre and they were hugely influenced by Rush.
Back to Top
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13338 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 12:50
I guess is a matter of personal interpretation. I think every genre, after some time, develops the need for pushing beyond it’s boundaries, unless it’s destined to go into total oblivion. 
Back to Top
JD View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 16:41
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

My personal opinion is the 'Metal' and 'Prog' and mutually exclusive.
I know that some 'Metal' bands have done songs with 'Prog elements.
But does that mean if a metal bands uses some polka elements it should be classified as metal polka?

That's for other's to debate, I say no.

And the difference of prog metal and prog rock in this regard is?..

I think prog metal took most of its elements from prog rock. Not sure about the exact origins (I know the history, but haven't given a proper thought about the issue), but Dream Theater are/were the most illustrious torchbearers of the genre and they were hugely influenced by Rush.
Well, I never say Prog Rock I say Prog or Progressive Rock. And the only reason the word rock comes into play (not rock & roll) is because of its standing as a dominant broad genre starting in the mid/late 60's. And yes, I know Rock & Roll begat Rock.

I see the two bands highlighted above to be more progressive bands than metal bands. Only DT uses metal elements waaaaay more than Rush.


Edited by JD - December 14 2022 at 16:43
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
Back to Top
Archisorcerus View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 16:53
^ Actually, I was questioning your take, not judging.

Dream Theater is quite a mixed bag. They "use" metal as a dominant element, and they obviously have lots of pure "metallic" songs; but I agree with you in essence.

Prog metal is like the "advanced" or more sophisticated form of metal. I think they got the idea from prog rock. 

Edited by Archisorcerus - December 14 2022 at 16:54
Back to Top
Faul_McCartney View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: October 25 2022
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 19 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faul_McCartney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 17:26
To me it seems obvious to me that prog metal was influenced by prog rock to a degree, though to what extent I'm not sure. Was it just them taking inspiration from the "prog movement" and applying its advances to metal, or was it more "let's do prog, but metal".
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15242 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 17:40
ALL metal is a fusion genre. Prog metal included.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
Jaketejas View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1990 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 17:56
Yes, and at one time it required a violinist named David Cross and had some jazz mixed in with it.
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65249 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 18:46
In reading the OP's question, I'd say the answer would have to be No.  

First, ProgMetal is not a mix of metal and prog, it's metal taking a progressive approach to music.   In other words progmetal does not often sound like Yes meets Exodus.

Second, incredible as it may seem now, early heavy metal ~ Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Scorps, Judas Priest, etc. ~ was an outgrowth of the progressive rock movement in the late '60s, not just the hard rock scene around the same time, giving license to push & expand the different threads of rock 'n roll that had emerged and then diverged into what was later termed "progressive" or "heavy" or "psychedelic".
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15242 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 18:58
^ LOL. you've been fauled! LOL

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65249 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:12
^ But it's not April 1st!
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15242 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:26
^was it april 1st when paul supposedly croaked?

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:27
Imo, prog-metal is a subgenre of metal and not necessarily part of prog-rock with some exceptions. I think there are some bands where the prog maybe outweighs the metal element (arena and Riverside come to mind) and so they are borderline and could maybe go either way(usually prog imo though). A band like Haken sounds more metal to me although they clearly have prog rock influences. There's room enough under the prog umbrella for prog-metal but at the same time it also is part of heavy metal too. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 14 2022 at 19:27
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:30
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

^ Actually, I was questioning your take, not judging.

Dream Theater is quite a mixed bag. They "use" metal as a dominant element, and they obviously have lots of pure "metallic" songs; but I agree with you in essence.

Prog metal is like the "advanced" or more sophisticated form of metal. I think they got the idea from prog rock. 

The sophisticated part? I think many were just fans of both prog rock and metal. It could be argued Rush were the first prog-metal band because they were influenced by both Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath but also Yes and Genesis. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 14 2022 at 19:30
Back to Top
Jaketejas View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1990 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:43
The first Prog metal songs, like Larks Tongues in Aspic Part 2 by King Crimson from the early 1970s were, in my opinion, very much a fusion among Prog, metal, jazz, and eastern sounds and even had some lovely and also cacophonous avant-garde violin. So, I would say that it started out as a form of fusion but has since changed. What I appreciated before was the wide degree of variation between the lovely and the harsh. Sometimes, it is now all harsh. When there is an interplay between the two, the contrasts make the heavy parts sound even heavier. The auditory nerve can only take so much of a constant barrage, just like I wouldn’t want every course of a meal to be drowned in hot chili powder.
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 01:12
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

In reading the OP's question, I'd say the answer would have to be No.  

First, ProgMetal is not a mix of metal and prog, it's metal taking a progressive approach to music.   In other words progmetal does not often sound like Yes meets Exodus.

Second, incredible as it may seem now, early heavy metal ~ Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Scorps, Judas Priest, etc. ~ was an outgrowth of the progressive rock movement in the late '60s, not just the hard rock scene around the same time, giving license to push & expand the different threads of rock 'n roll that had emerged and then diverged into what was later termed "progressive" or "heavy" or "psychedelic".


very nicely put! Clap
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15242 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 01:32
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

In reading the OP's question, I'd say the answer would have to be No.  

First, ProgMetal is not a mix of metal and prog, it's metal taking a progressive approach to music.   In other words progmetal does not often sound like Yes meets Exodus.

Second, incredible as it may seem now, early heavy metal ~ Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Scorps, Judas Priest, etc. ~ was an outgrowth of the progressive rock movement in the late '60s, not just the hard rock scene around the same time, giving license to push & expand the different threads of rock 'n roll that had emerged and then diverged into what was later termed "progressive" or "heavy" or "psychedelic".





No it wasn't! Early metal was a product of psychedelic blues rock and angst. Both prog and modern metal came from many sources including prog, blues, jazz, and many other genera.

Prog metal was a direct result of the sounds of heavy metal colliding with 70s prog rock.

Dream Theater was about as obvious as it gets mixing metal angst with Kansas symphonic prog.

Anglagard, Anekdoten and other bands took on a heavier King Crimson vibe

Spock's Beard upped the ante for heavier symphonic prog

Symphony X took neoclassical well into symphonic prog

Gorguts, Death, Deathspell Omega etc embedded the prog so well into their now classic sound that many still dont recognize it

In reality ALL music is a hybrid of what came before and something new

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
b_olariu View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 02 2007
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 5532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b_olariu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 06:05
[QUOTE=Atavachron]
In reading the OP's question, I'd say the answer would have to be No.  

First, ProgMetal is not a mix of metal and prog, it's metal taking a progressive approach to music.   In other words progmetal does not often sound like Yes meets Exodus.

Second, incredible as it may seem now, early heavy metal ~ Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Scorps, Judas Priest, etc. ~ was an outgrowth of the progressive rock movement in the late '60s, not just the hard rock scene around the same time, giving license to push & expand the different threads of rock 'n roll that had emerged and then diverged into what was later termed "progressive" or "heavy" or "psychedelic".



OK, this is the answerSmile
Back to Top
Jaketejas View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1990 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 08:22
In the very beginning … more prevalent
What is now considered PM … not so much, but still can find instances of it
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.234 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.