Is Prog Metal a "fusion" genre?
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Topic: Is Prog Metal a "fusion" genre?
Posted By: Faul_McCartney
Subject: Is Prog Metal a "fusion" genre?
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 02:16
| Is Prog Metal simply a mix of metal and prog rock in the same way jazz fusion is a mix of jazz and rock, or country rap is a fusion of country and rap? Or is it a legitimate progression of metal that builds upon and/or subverts established trends of the genre in the same way that the original progressive rock had continuity with the (mostly) psychedelic rock bands of the 60s? |
Replies:
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 10:42
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My personal opinion is the 'Metal' and 'Prog' and mutually exclusive. I know that some 'Metal' bands have done songs with 'Prog elements. But does that mean if a metal bands uses some polka elements it should be classified as metal polka? That's for other's to debate, I say no. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Archisorcerus
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 10:52
And the difference of prog metal and prog rock in this regard is?.. I think prog metal took most of its elements from prog rock. Not sure about the exact origins (I know the history, but haven't given a proper thought about the issue), but Dream Theater are/were the most illustrious torchbearers of the genre and they were hugely influenced by Rush. |
JD wrote:Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 12:50
| I guess is a matter of personal interpretation. I think every genre, after some time, develops the need for pushing beyond it’s boundaries, unless it’s destined to go into total oblivion. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 16:41
I see the two bands highlighted above to be more progressive bands than metal bands. Only DT uses metal elements waaaaay more than Rush.
------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Archisorcerus
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 16:53
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^ Actually, I was questioning your take, not judging. Dream Theater is quite a mixed bag. They "use" metal as a dominant element, and they obviously have lots of pure "metallic" songs; but I agree with you in essence. Prog metal is like the "advanced" or more sophisticated form of metal. I think they got the idea from prog rock. |
Posted By: Faul_McCartney
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 17:26
| To me it seems obvious to me that prog metal was influenced by prog rock to a degree, though to what extent I'm not sure. Was it just them taking inspiration from the "prog movement" and applying its advances to metal, or was it more "let's do prog, but metal". |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 17:40
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ALL metal is a fusion genre. Prog metal included. -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 17:56
| Yes, and at one time it required a violinist named David Cross and had some jazz mixed in with it. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 18:46
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In reading the OP's question, I'd say the answer would have to be No. First, ProgMetal is not a mix of metal and prog, it's metal taking a progressive approach to music. In other words progmetal does not often sound like Yes meets Exodus. Second, incredible as it may seem now, early heavy metal ~ Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Scorps, Judas Priest, etc. ~ was an outgrowth of the progressive rock movement in the late '60s, not just the hard rock scene around the same time, giving license to push & expand the different threads of rock 'n roll that had emerged and then diverged into what was later termed "progressive" or "heavy" or "psychedelic". ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 18:58
^ LOL. you've been fauled! 
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:12
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^ But it's not April 1st! ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:26
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^was it april 1st when paul supposedly croaked? ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:27
| Imo, prog-metal is a subgenre of metal and not necessarily part of prog-rock with some exceptions. I think there are some bands where the prog maybe outweighs the metal element (arena and Riverside come to mind) and so they are borderline and could maybe go either way(usually prog imo though). A band like Haken sounds more metal to me although they clearly have prog rock influences. There's room enough under the prog umbrella for prog-metal but at the same time it also is part of heavy metal too. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:30
The sophisticated part? I think many were just fans of both prog rock and metal. It could be argued Rush were the first prog-metal band because they were influenced by both Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath but also Yes and Genesis.
|
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: December 14 2022 at 19:43
| The first Prog metal songs, like Larks Tongues in Aspic Part 2 by King Crimson from the early 1970s were, in my opinion, very much a fusion among Prog, metal, jazz, and eastern sounds and even had some lovely and also cacophonous avant-garde violin. So, I would say that it started out as a form of fusion but has since changed. What I appreciated before was the wide degree of variation between the lovely and the harsh. Sometimes, it is now all harsh. When there is an interplay between the two, the contrasts make the heavy parts sound even heavier. The auditory nerve can only take so much of a constant barrage, just like I wouldn’t want every course of a meal to be drowned in hot chili powder. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 01:12
very nicely put!
 |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 01:32
No it wasn't! Early metal was a product of psychedelic blues rock and angst. Both prog and modern metal came from many sources including prog, blues, jazz, and many other genera. Prog metal was a direct result of the sounds of heavy metal colliding with 70s prog rock. Dream Theater was about as obvious as it gets mixing metal angst with Kansas symphonic prog. Anglagard, Anekdoten and other bands took on a heavier King Crimson vibe Spock's Beard upped the ante for heavier symphonic prog Symphony X took neoclassical well into symphonic prog Gorguts, Death, Deathspell Omega etc embedded the prog so well into their now classic sound that many still dont recognize it In reality ALL music is a hybrid of what came before and something new ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 06:05
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[QUOTE=Atavachron] In reading the OP's question, I'd say the answer would have to be No. First, ProgMetal is not a mix of metal and prog, it's metal taking a progressive approach to music. In other words progmetal does not often sound like Yes meets Exodus. Second, incredible as it may seem now, early heavy metal ~ Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Scorps, Judas Priest, etc. ~ was an outgrowth of the progressive rock movement in the late '60s, not just the hard rock scene around the same time, giving license to push & expand the different threads of rock 'n roll that had emerged and then diverged into what was later termed "progressive" or "heavy" or "psychedelic".  |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 08:22
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In the very beginning … more prevalent What is now considered PM … not so much, but still can find instances of it |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: December 18 2022 at 13:57
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As I see it, Prog Metal is a progression of Heavy Metal, but with Progressive Rock, and not least Neo-Prog, as big influence. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: December 18 2022 at 14:40
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Erm... nope, never really was. And I believe it never will be, too stuck in on itself to go out and try to have any relation to fusion. |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: December 18 2022 at 16:11
In general, no. Nor is jazz rock fusion simply a mix of jazz and rock. It's about one genre incorporating characteristics and attributes of another genre. The innovators/originators are the ones who find a fresh take to create new music. Some may just merely "mix," while others do not. And with any category, there are followers who use the originators' music to inspire their music or there are followers who more or less imitate. |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: December 18 2022 at 17:33
| It’s not some jazzy version of Cherry Pie by Warrant, if that’s what you’re asking. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: December 20 2022 at 12:23
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A good book about Prog Metal is Jeff Wagner's Mean Deviation: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal (2010). ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: I_Developer
Date Posted: January 01 2023 at 22:31
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Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yes, that is correct. ------------- See ya, I_Developer Asia Superfan and Album Reviewer |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 02 2023 at 17:24
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Dating back to the 30s and 40s there were Jazz guitarists that played a "pull off" style combined with "tapping". This particular style of guitar playing became part of the Metal identity.. In Jazz the name most mentioned is Tal Farlowe..however there were several other Jazz guitarists mastering that style throughout Europe in the 20th century and it originally was a technique that existed in European Folk. The harmonies played by two guitarists in a Metal band is commonly known to be based on Norwegian Folk melodies and of course the Classical times. In the more melodic side to Metal this has been utilized with singing as well. Typically a vocal phrase which contains a melodic minor sound, but never strays completely away from dissonance...which of course gives a Metal song its creepiness. The duel guitar harmony leads were often heard in the music of Wishbone Ash...but the idea itself unleashed itself in Progressive Rock with Stephen Stewart and Francis Lickerish of The Enid in the 70s. It mainly derived from Classical music and because of their tone it did in fact ( at times),have a Metal style. Much of the more technical or intricate plectrum style of Randy Rhodes, Ynigwie Malmstein etc..was full of precision attack and probably mastered through the practice of violin pieces..Paganini etc. Originally I thought I had heard the quickness of these note passages played by Ritchie Blackmore on "Highway Star". I believe that was in 1972 and as time progressed more guitar players began adding that to their own vocabulary and it became popular in Metal. It was a progressive way of playing because it derived from Classical music. Such as the way Keith Emerson could move his fingers across the keyboards like grease lightning...guitar players were doing the same ...but mostly in Metal. Regardless of categorizing it as Heavy Metal ...Metal...Speed Metal...etc...many of the ideas or concepts derive from fast pace notes in the Classical times. ..but over decades Metal was never thought to be Progressive Rock. The guitar lines may have been progressive and required technique to play, but it didn't sound like Prog to the hard core supporters of Prog for years... |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: January 02 2023 at 17:29
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: January 02 2023 at 17:51
This is a lovely post. Thank you. Funny enough, routing through my cd collection I came across a Paganini cd I’ve not heard in forever. Gonna change that. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 02 2023 at 18:17
Perhaps, but the technical reason a stringed instrumentalist would use their plectrum hand to fret a note was for extra reach, and/or when fingering was not possible with the fretting hand. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 03 2023 at 08:57
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My compliments as well for your post, Jacob, and I'm not sure that Deep Purple gets enough credits for being one of the most important Metal pioneers. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |