The Jazz-Rock/Fusion Appreciation Thread

^^Glad to hear that Andu, i just picked this album up but haven't listened to it yet. I liked di Meola and Return to forever sofar so i've some hopes i like them too.

Edited by Dirk - August 09 2007 at 19:19

Ok so i'll have to approach it with an open mind. At least it is the same genre and if i read correctly the same roots (Miles Davis). Then again i'm not such a huge fan of Mahavishnu as yet (more listenings required there i guess). Better start listening .....

"not jazz"??????????????? God i've been deluding myself for nearly 35 years.

Jazz -rock is a cross-genres kind of music, not a sub-genre of jazz; but that's only my opinion, of course. For me jazz-rock is not jazz but jazz-rock, nothing more, nothing less, and I would never use the same shelf to store Duke Ellington, Count Bassie, Benny Goodman, Grappelli, Django, Keith Jarret, or Jacques Loussier and Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Brand X or Return To Forever. (Of course I know there are cases of extreme proximity and intimacy between jazz and jazz-rock, but just as there are cases of clear opposition.)

I hope Mr. Zawinul will be fine and his health improved asap, please keep us informed!

Well I have seen a lot of recommendations here. Many of them repeated a lot of times (so I guess they are popular).

Personally, I think these ones should be as popular as Return to Forever, Mahavishnu or Weather Report.

They Are:

- Vital Tech Tones
- Bela Fleck and the Flecktones
- Pat Metheny
- Screaming Headless Torsos

Highly recommendable bands.

andu wrote: I don't want to convince you of anything  , but maybe you haven't listened to Black Market. They do rock, there (among other things of course). And that is definitely not jazz. They may be a lot more jazzier on other albums, but I think Black Market is the most relevant regarding their presence on the PA.

Andu, dear friend! You obviously haven't read my review of BLACK MARKET - the only Weather Report album I've done so far! It's one of my five-star albums. But if you believe Weather Report actually ROCK, then so do Duke Ellington and Count Basie, in spite of the fact they don't use guitars! Now Eberhard Weber's classic YELLOW FIELDS uses rock beats and the lushest keyboards (esp. mellotrons and pianos, both acoustic and electric) throughout. It's definitely closer to prog than either Oregon or John Abercrombie, both of whom I love, and both of whom are HERE. What am I saying? YELLOW FIELDS IS prog! Now failure to include such albums in Progarchives won't give me sleepless nights, but (like so many others) I tend to find decision-making on this site a little arbitrary. For example: Why are Oregon here, but not Ralph Towner's (musically superior) solo albums? Why is Steve Tibbetts here, but not David Torn (who sounds proggier than Tibbettes and has collaborated with the likes of Tony Levin and Terry Bozzio)? Why is John Abercrombie here, but not Terje Rypdal? Perhaps I ought to suggest them officially, but I'm afraid I'll immediately hear the same noises as in this thread: "They're not prog, they're jazz" etc. So for clarity's sake let me repeat this: Weather Report, John Abercrombie and Oregon are just as "jazz" as David Torn, Terje Rypdal and Eberhard Weber - and perhaps even more so! (Nothing to be ashamed of, naturally! )

fuxi wrote: andu wrote: I don't want to convince you of anything  , but maybe you haven't listened to Black Market. They do rock, there (among other things of course). And that is definitely not jazz. They may be a lot more jazzier on other albums, but I think Black Market is the most relevant regarding their presence on the PA. Andu, dear friend! You obviously haven't read my review of BLACK MARKET - the only Weather Report album I've done so far! It's one of my five-star albums. But if you believe Weather Report actually ROCK, then so do Duke Ellington and Count Basie, in spite of the fact they don't use guitars! Now Eberhard Weber's classic YELLOW FIELDS uses rock beats and the lushest keyboards (esp. mellotrons and pianos, both acoustic and electric) throughout. It's definitely closer to prog than either Oregon or John Abercrombie, both of whom I love, and both of whom are HERE. What am I saying? YELLOW FIELDS IS prog! Now failure to include such albums in Progarchives won't give me sleepless nights, but (like so many others) I tend to find decision-making on this site a little arbitrary. For example: Why are Oregon here, but not Ralph Towner's (musically superior) solo albums? Why is Steve Tibbetts here, but not David Torn (who sounds proggier than Tibbettes and has collaborated with the likes of Tony Levin and Terry Bozzio)? Why is John Abercrombie here, but not Terje Rypdal? Perhaps I ought to suggest them officially, but I'm afraid I'll immediately hear the same noises as in this thread: "They're not prog, they're jazz" etc. So for clarity's sake let me repeat this: Weather Report, John Abercrombie and Oregon are just as "jazz" as David Torn, Terje Rypdal and Eberhard Weber - and perhaps even more so! (Nothing to be ashamed of, naturally! )

I certainly would not have included Oregon in the database, as much as I love them. But they are not prog. Sometimes the decisions are hard to understand.

Just finished hearing hearing for the first time Laboratorium's album Modern Penthathlon, really truly great stuff, a must to anyone that likes jazz rock/fusion. Please folks try to acquire them!(to the ones that don't have them). I can't express how good this album of theirs is.

Dick Heath wrote: However, several of those now so-called mainstream artists you list fused jazz with other music:   Benny Goodman: jazz and East European Jewish music Django Reinhart and Stefane Grapelli; jazz and gipsy music and some European classical;. Jacques Loussier: Bach and jazz.

It is the fertile crossings between different formal languages and creative backgrounds that I appreciate in this area of music , on the contrary "straight" jazz does nothing for me, except for a few cases like those I mentioned. Please recommend me more of this! I would also recommend Loussier's "Baroque Favourites" where he does the same thing he did to Bach to a whole lot of pre-classical composers (like Haydn, Haendel, Scarlatti, Albinoni, etc). One other thing I like is the mix between modern jazz and traditional religious music, like in Garbarek's "Mnemosyne" (jazz + gregorian chant) or Stephan Micus' "Athos" (Orthodox chant + extravagant instruments).

Dick Heath wrote: Jazz is a very broad based music, some of it b*****dised and hybridised, some of it original (i.e. difficult to identify precursors) e.g. be bop. You only have to go back to the  early 30's to find there was sub categorisation: e.g. New Orleans (Dixieland), Kansas, Chicago whilst Paul Whiteman had produced this big band hybrid that had already played Rhapsody in Blue  - the first fusion of jazz and classical music before the music was rearranged in the now more familiar classical orchestral form. Maurice Ravel wasn't far behind and had already taken lessons with Bix Beiderbeck, as payment for lessons Beiderbeck had taken from the visiting French composer in piano composition and arrangement - Beiderbeck's rare piano recording (of about 1929??)  In A Mist  is one example of jazz with classical influences.

True, however I feel that since the 50s-60s many paths get separated inside the main one (like free-jazz and types of jazz-fusion) and also outside it (like jazz-rock). That's why I earlier said "not jazz"; not like I would see totally different things, but different things with filiation (<-- my online dictionary says that's a word, but Firefox's spell-check doesn't agree) bonds. Of course these are only personal thoughts and do not rely on extensive knowledge.

josetuna wrote: Well I have seen a lot of recommendations here. Many of them repeated a lot of times (so I guess they are popular). Personally, I think these ones should be as popular as Return to Forever, Mahavishnu or Weather Report. They Are: - Vital Tech Tones - Bela Fleck and the Flecktones - Pat Metheny - Screaming Headless Torsos Highly recommendable bands.

Pat Metheny is as popular as Weather Report, RTF, and Mahavishnu, and he's an excellent guitarist.