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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:35
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:


I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic.
 
Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people.  Otherwise there would be no religious people."


House is the best! Love that show. Especially Ms. Morrison.






Yeah, and she's no longer in the cast. Boooo!!!!AngryLOL
She does play Kirk's mom in the new Star Trek movie though.  Yay!!Big smile


Edited by Slartibartfast - May 29 2009 at 15:37
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:58
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:


I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic.
 
Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people.  Otherwise there would be no religious people."


House is the best! Love that show. Especially Ms. Morrison.






Yeah, and she's no longer in the cast. Boooo!!!!AngryLOL
She does play Kirk's mom in the new Star Trek movie though.  Yay!!Big smile

No way...she's not on House? Must have been a war between her and 13 for the most babe-ilicious. 


Edited by StyLaZyn - May 29 2009 at 15:59
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:07
Originally posted by sinkadotentree sinkadotentree wrote:



 I've been thinking your too sensitive about it but maybe i've been too insensitive.Sorry.
 
Do you beńieve that listening someone compare our religious leader and the direct representative of Christ on earth according to our beliefs with a beast with horns  is being oversensitive?
 
Do you believe that reading how Mr. Morse compares our saints with pagan gods is being over sensitive?
 
Iván
            
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Points: 13416 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by sinkadotentree sinkadotentree wrote:



 I've been thinking your too sensitive about it but maybe i've been too insensitive.Sorry.
 
Do you beńieve that listening someone compare our religious leader and the direct representative of Christ on earth according to our beliefs with a beast with horns  is being oversensitive?
 
Do you believe that reading how Mr. Morse compares our saints with pagan gods is being over sensitive?
 
Iván

I guess i believe that people are people. Luther was a great reformist regardless of his anti-Jewish beliefs. In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples.You put people(saints) on a pedestals like the Romans put gods on a pedestal.That's his comparison. As far as Morse comparing the pope with a beast with horns i missed that in the lyrics.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:40
Originally posted by sinkadotentree sinkadotentree wrote:


I guess i believe that people are people. Luther was a great reformist regardless of his anti-Jewish beliefs. In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples.
 
Themn why does he criticizes the Pope of those days, if "In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples"
 
If you criticize somebody, you have to be better than him, a person who wants to exterminate a race (well two, he doesn't like the gysies either) or wtrites aberrations like this that would make Hitler proud:
 
Quote

Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies
 
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

 

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

 
Can criticize nobody.....For God's sdake, Mein Kampf is a nursery rhyme book conmmpared with this abomination that everybody seem to ignore. 
 
Originally posted by sinkadotentree sinkadotentree wrote:

You put people(saints) on a pedestals like the Romans put gods on a pedestal.That's his comparison. As far as Morse comparing the pope with a beast with horns i missed that in the lyrics.
 
Saints are people who received the grace of God, not a pagan divinity.
 
Just in case you missed that part:
 
Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't
Look I've got great big armie like a General
I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 30 2009 at 13:27
            
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Points: 13416 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:58
That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work.
And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have? 
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:05
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:


I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic.
 
Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people.  Otherwise there would be no religious people."


House is the best! Love that show. Especially Ms. Morrison.






Yeah, and she's no longer in the cast. Boooo!!!!AngryLOL
She does play Kirk's mom in the new Star Trek movie though.  Yay!!Big smile
I'm gonna travel into the future and be Kirk's father and her daddy.  Tongue
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:12
Originally posted by sinkadotentree sinkadotentree wrote:

That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work.
And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have? 
 
Well, the truth is that Catholic Church didn't loved the Jewishs either, the Inquisition is a prove of that, but the point is that all the religions made mistakes but is important to notice them and give a step back as John Paul II did when he asked for pardon of the acts that were commited long before his time.
 
What is absurd is to keep atacking ourselves as enemies when we venerate the same God, even the Moslems and Jewishs accept the God of Abraham as their God.
 
I remember reading that when the puppet of Mike Rutherford in Land of Confusion (Or one similar) was used to represent Christ (I believe in a BBC program), the ones that protested were the Muslims, that was a nice gesture, being that Jesus is not even the principal Profet for them, but they showed respect.....Don't know if this is an urban myth, but Muslims have great respect for Christ
 
Iván 
            
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Points: 5482 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:25
Wow, Ivan, that's some nasty stuff.  I didn't know that about Martin Luther.  Thanks for posting it.
 
What is the context of that "hetero" line.  I can't tell from your original posting if it goes with the verses above it.  Is he singing from the supposed viewpoint of the Pope?
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:38
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Wow, Ivan, that's some nasty stuff.  I didn't know that about Martin Luther.  Thanks for posting it.
 
What is the context of that "hetero" line.  I can't tell from your original posting if it goes with the verses above it.  Is he singing from the supposed viewpoint of the Pope?
 
I am clueless about the absolutely out of context phrase, not something The Pope Leon X would say or even think in 1518, I'm sure nobody was tolerant with homosexuals then.
 
It's in the song "The Conflic" from Sola Scriptura
 
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:41
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't
Look I've got great big armie like a General
I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero
 
Iván

I like that line. That's pretty much because I agree with it though. However, I din't see it so much as an indictment on the CC, but rather on organized faith as a whole. There's quite a few evangelicals that hold marriage to be inconsistent with ministry, not just the CC. The gay thing is even more applicable given the homophobia of modern US religions.

Yea ML got pretty intolerant. However, most of that was in his later years, well after the 95 theses. In his earlier writings he actually encouraged compassion in dealing with jews. I halfway wonder sometimes if some of his works weren't doctored by others for their own agendas b/c his viewpoitn varies wildly over the course of life. Maybe one just kicked him in the shin or something.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:07
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:


I like that line. That's pretty much because I agree with it though. However, I din't see it so much as an indictment on the CC, but rather on organized faith as a whole. There's quite a few evangelicals that hold marriage to be inconsistent with ministry, not just the CC. The gay thing is even more applicable given the homophobia of modern US religions.


 
Then is out of Context, because this is suposed to be a work about the Reformation, not about Neal Morse's views about modern Church.
 
I supposed that was preaching about his own beliefs, because the term is from Greek origin and for that reason not used in 1518.
 
Quote 1892, in C.G. Craddock's translation of Krafft-Ebbing's "Psychopathia Sexualis." The noun is recorded from 1920, but not in common use until 1960s. Colloquial shortening hetero is from 1933. Heterosexuality is first recorded 1900. Heterosexist "characteristic of discrimination against homosexuals" is first attested 1979.
 
 
More reasons to believe he's preaching.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 18:21
            
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Points: 13416 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:21
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by sinkadotentree sinkadotentree wrote:

That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work.
And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have? 
 
Well, the truth is that Catholic Church didn't loved the Jewishs either, the Inquisition is a prove of that, but the point is that all the religions made mistakes but is important to notice them and give a step back as John Paul II did when he asked for pardon of the acts that were commited long before his time.
 
What is absurd is to keep atacking ourselves as enemies when we venerate the same God, even the Moslems and Jewishs accept the God of Abraham as their God.
 
I remember reading that when the puppet of Mike Rutherford in Land of Confusion (Or one similar) was used to represent Christ (I believe in a BBC program), the ones that protested were the Muslims, that was a nice gesture, being that Jesus is not even the principal Profet for them, but they showed respect.....Don't know if this is an urban myth, but Muslims have great respect for Christ
 
Iván 
 
I agree IvanClap that showing love and compassion for people who have different beliefs than us is a powerful thing.And your example of John Paul II is a good one.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:23
I like the lyrics of Sola Scriptura, and I agree with them, both historically and as a Christian.  I'll leave it at that since this is not a thread to debate the pros and cons of Catholicism or Martin Luther.  I am a fan of the Reformation, but do not support anti-Semitism.

I'm also a fan of artists saying whatever they like in their music and no one whining about it.  Have I ever railed against the anti-Christian and anti-conservative lyrics that pervade most prog rock?  Not once.

Oh and EDIT: If artists want to preach, GOOD.  I attend service twice a week that has preaching.  It's good for me.  If it's not for you, don't listen to it.

Edited by Epignosis - May 29 2009 at 18:24
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:29
Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam.  I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken:

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

Muslims and Jews worship the same God?  To use your word...please.


Edited by Epignosis - May 29 2009 at 18:44
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:40
I'm wondering at this point...should this really be in the prog lounge?  This has become more of a Protestant v. Catholic debate now instead of actually being about religious lyrics in prog.  Let's move this to general discussions. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 24598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:47
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam.  I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken:

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

Muslims and Jews worship the same God?  To use your word...please.

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Points: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 19:26
I Know I'm kind of late for the train on this topic but I like religion in my lyrics in some cases...
 
Lawdy lawdy lawdy Miss Clawdy!
God damn the pusher man!
Good God y'all!
Jesus was a heartbreaker.
Ring of fire...
Sabbath bloody sabbath...
 
"Abe said where you want this killin done? God said, do it out on highway 61."
 
Stuff like that.
 
If I wanted gospels and psalms from befuddled missionaries (and I dont),  I would not listen to Prog or any form of Rock music.


Edited by Valdez - May 29 2009 at 19:38
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 19:38
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam.  I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken:

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

Muslims and Jews worship the same God?  To use your word...please.
 
The relations between Jewishs and Moslems is another problem, but this doesn't mean Allah is not the God of Abraham.
 
Quote
 
The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah
 
[2:125] And remember when his Lord tried Abraham with certain commands which he fulfilled. He said, ‘I will make thee a Leader of men.’ Abraham asked, ‘And from among my offspring?’ He said, ‘My covenant does not embrace the transgressors.’
 
[2:126] And remember the time when We made the House a resort for mankind and a place of security; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of Prayer. And We commanded Abraham and Ishmael, saying, ‘Purify My House for those who perform the circuit and those who remain therein for devotion and those who bow down and fall prostrate in Prayer.’
 
[2:127] And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, make this a town of peace and provide with fruits such of its dwellers as believe in Allah and the Last Day,’ He said, ‘And on him too who believes not will I bestow benefits for a little while; then will I drive him to the punishment of the Fire, and an evil destination it is.’
 
 
Still you doubt that Allah the God of Abraham?
 
Remember that the Bible recognizes Ishmael as the father of the Arab race and Ishmael is Abraham's son:
 
Quote

Ishmael (Hebrew: יִשְׁמָעֵאל, Standard Yišmaʿel Tiberian Yišmāʿęl; Arabic: إسماعيل‎, 'Ismā‘īl) is a figure in the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an. Jews, Christians and Muslims believe Ishmael is Abraham's eldest son and first born and natural heir. Ishmael is born of Sarai's hand maiden Hagar (Genesis 16:3). Although born of Hagar, according to Mesopotamian law, Ishmael was credited as Sarai's son; a legal heir through marriage. (Genesis 16:2) According to the Genesis account, he died at the age of 137 (Genesis 25:17).

Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of northern Arab people.

 
So, don't you believe in the Holy Bible?
 
BTW: My teacher was not only a Priest, but a recognized theologist who spent years studying the holy texts of many religions plus a good and tolerant man of God, If I have to choose to believe in your interpretation and his....I go with his interpretation.
 
Despite this fact, the Quran and the Bible are clear Abraham worshiped Yahveh according to the Bible and Torah but also Allah according  to the Quran.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 29 2009 at 19:45
            
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2009 at 19:50
It's a simple theological matter Ivan.  If the god of Islam teaches something contrary to the God of Christianity, they cannot be the same god.  It doesn't matter what "ties" Islam has to Ishmael.  They are two different and mostly contrary religions. 

After all, Christianity believes Christ is God.  Muslims do not.  It's fairly simple.
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