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darkshade View Drop Down
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:16
Train of Thought, as metal as they were on that album, features Mike Portnoy at his peak. Say what you want about his skills nowadays, but he has played some seriously complicated stuff ion that album. He's kind of been riding out that peak ever since, and is still solid, but he's admitted to not practicing anymore, so I can't defend him post-Octavarium.

I look at him as the updated Neil Peart, going a little more beyond what he did. There are, of course, even more insane drummers than Portnoy, but he is probably the most enjoyable modern-rock drummer IMO.
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Points: 34086 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:32
Simon Phillips is very influentual on Mike Portnoy as well

Simon shines in this medley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E08AImQfPy8
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Points: 6811 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 15:40
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Your right.  Some of today's music is fantastic.  I purchased over 40 albums from 2011,  thanks to progarchives.   Opeth, Dream Theater, Unexpect, Sean Filkins, Discipline, Mastodon, Steven Wilson, Anubis, Airbag, and many other artists put out great albums in 2011, which I am now proud to own and enjoy.   It's just damn hard to sift through all the manure to find a prize pony of an album.  Hell, 2011 was banner year for progressive music.   And yes there is variety.   The two Unexpect albums I have blown me away,  the same way Sleepytime Gorilla Museum leaves me in awe.   It was just so easy back in the 70's.   I was a 12 year old listening to Yes, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Genesis, Gentle Giant, and Frank Zappa.  It seems like an amazing album came out every other week.  And it was easy to find.  Without a site like Progarchives ...I would be drilling dry well, after dry well.  And yes the young man who dissed Zeppelin was an idiot son, of a friend,  of a woman who works with my wife.   Maybe it's just me?  I still think today's music is not as memorable  as the musical output from the previous 400 years.   Just my opinion.  That and a quarter will get ya..... 

Well as I'm sure will all know there was plenty of crap to sift through back then. While I'm sure the amount of artists today certainly has increased by a hell of a lot, well I think it's a ratio of crap to good stuff it sorta stays the same, there's plenty more crap, there's plenty more good stuff. I don't mind you find music more memorable back then (though I think memorability is a trait albums can get with time as they also reach that "classic" status), but I just really don't see how we can say objectively or subjectively that music has changed in quality, just because we are living in a different decade. I just see it as silly.
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 15:58
I personally think jazz-fusion drumming in the 70's is the peak for me. Insanely technical but grooving at the same time. Bruford and to a lesser extent Collins came from that culture and as a result their influence on classic prog. The are also what I like to call "compositional" drummers who instead of thinking in terms of beats and fills, actively compose a part to go with music. The difference is always an immense uptick in the quality of music.
 
 
As tech metal guy, the two guys my age that I think about are Gene Hoglan and Sean Reinert, both Death alumni. Hoglan is indeed almost a computer and there are times when that is exactly what the music calls for. There are things on SYL's Alien that just defy the mind. That album was just about going as crazy as possible and Hoglan took it upon himself to try to be as difficult as possible.
 
Reinert can play some technically amazing stuff, but it always grooves. It doesn't always move me, but when it does, it's amazing. Probably my favorite guy to meld jazz and tech together in a modern context.
 
I still haven't figured out the Zach Hill worship yet but I'm not a drummer.
 
 
 
Very very few guitarists do anything to surprise these days. Tosin certainly wows me, but the days of the guitar guru are long gone.
 
 
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:39
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by akaBona akaBona wrote:

when talking about drummers, we must not forget Mr. Vander !
 
Yep .. and I forgot him ... now I feel like a total turkey. Yeah ... 5 drummers now ... because Christian is on a class all his own that defies description ... but I am not sure that we're going to get a "Rush fan" to actually listen to Magma ... that would be scandalous, I imagine!
 
Rush is my favorite band, and I love Magma.
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:42
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

 
 Everyone that says that "the old stuff is always better" are a bunch of nostalgic w**ks. There were musical geniuses in the 50s, 60s, and the 70s, and there are musical geniuses now. There always will be.
 
 
Are we to say that Franz Liszt was not a good composer just because Mozart did something similar before him? Everyone borrows from everyone whether its consciously or subconsciously. Instead of arguing who is better or what era had better drummers, why can't we realize that these drummers are ALL f**king amazing. Buddy Rich amazed us all, but are you saying to me that if Buddy Rich saw Portnoy playing he wouldn't be impressed?
 
I have to agree that we can sometimes become so obsessed with ideas of innovation and "doing something new" that we tend to underestimate the value of those who simply built on the work of those before them.  Not "copied" it, mind, but "built on it."
But Buddy Rich had quite a low opinion of rock music and very well might not be impressed with Portnoy.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 19:28
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

 
 Everyone that says that "the old stuff is always better" are a bunch of nostalgic w**ks. There were musical geniuses in the 50s, 60s, and the 70s, and there are musical geniuses now. There always will be.
 
 
Are we to say that Franz Liszt was not a good composer just because Mozart did something similar before him? Everyone borrows from everyone whether its consciously or subconsciously. Instead of arguing who is better or what era had better drummers, why can't we realize that these drummers are ALL f**king amazing. Buddy Rich amazed us all, but are you saying to me that if Buddy Rich saw Portnoy playing he wouldn't be impressed?
 
I have to agree that we can sometimes become so obsessed with ideas of innovation and "doing something new" that we tend to underestimate the value of those who simply built on the work of those before them.  Not "copied" it, mind, but "built on it."
But Buddy Rich had quite a low opinion of rock music and very well might not be impressed with Portnoy.


Read that apparently he hadn't heard or feigned to not know of Peart and Bruford but said he liked Steve Gadd.  This is what some fan who claims to have talked to Rich says, so I don't have it on quote.
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Points: 29590 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 01:25
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Putting aside technical skill then Fred Schendel as a case in point is interesting. He is actually the keyboardist in Glass Hammer but on their early albums like Shadowlands and Lex Rex he also played the drums. What is unique about him is that he plays with pure ' feel' using a small electronic kit (although you wouldn't know it listening to those albums). I miss his drumming on later GH albums which now have a much more technical cold sound as a result. I like Fred's playing which style wise could be described as a less technical version of Bill Bruford.
 
Modern prog drumming seems to be a lot more harder in sound. Perhaps the influence of prog metal has brought this about? I like Morse solo albums and Portnoy's drumming is a strong feature of them but bares little resemblance to classic prog drumming. Thats okay though.



Walter Moore, a drummer who became a guitarist, also played drums on those albums you mention.  I have no idea who is playing when on the albums though, since both are credited with drums.


 
You didn't bother to read the credits then
 
Fred plays drums on all of Shadowlands and Lex Rex while Walter plays on one track on Chronomotree (''Chronos Deliverer'') and thats it.


Edited by richardh - February 23 2012 at 01:27
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 03:26
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Your right.  Some of today's music is fantastic.  I purchased over 40 albums from 2011,  thanks to progarchives.   Opeth, Dream Theater, Unexpect, Sean Filkins, Discipline, Mastodon, Steven Wilson, Anubis, Airbag, and many other artists put out great albums in 2011, which I am now proud to own and enjoy.   It's just damn hard to sift through all the manure to find a prize pony of an album.  Hell, 2011 was banner year for progressive music.   And yes there is variety.   The two Unexpect albums I have blown me away,  the same way Sleepytime Gorilla Museum leaves me in awe.   It was just so easy back in the 70's.   I was a 12 year old listening to Yes, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Genesis, Gentle Giant, and Frank Zappa.  It seems like an amazing album came out every other week.  And it was easy to find.  Without a site like Progarchives ...I would be drilling dry well, after dry well.  And yes the young man who dissed Zeppelin was an idiot son, of a friend,  of a woman who works with my wife.   Maybe it's just me?  I still think today's music is not as memorable  as the musical output from the previous 400 years.   Just my opinion.  That and a quarter will get ya..... 

Well as I'm sure will all know there was plenty of crap to sift through back then. While I'm sure the amount of artists today certainly has increased by a hell of a lot, well I think it's a ratio of crap to good stuff it sorta stays the same, there's plenty more crap, there's plenty more good stuff. I don't mind you find music more memorable back then (though I think memorability is a trait albums can get with time as they also reach that "classic" status), but I just really don't see how we can say objectively or subjectively that music has changed in quality, just because we are living in a different decade. I just see it as silly.

Well, the mainstream has gotten more crap now and maybe people base their assumptions about the entire music scene on the mainstream (not saying that is correct at all, but that's how stereotypes evolve).   Let's not forget Yes and ELP were massive live draws back then, especially ELP.  But that has less to do with any objective base of quality but a change in the way the music business (or for that matter, Hollywood) operates.  

Since the end of the 70s, they have generally begun to put a premium on entertainment over everything else so the number of 'sincere' products that still manage to slip in and petrify the audience has gone down.  There was a lot of crap even at that time but there was also room for something more pertinent or substantial.  That is steadily going down.  Critics have played a part in it by more or less dubbing anything with a message as 'pretentious and by glorifying this business of "leaving your brain out at the entrance before you step into the cinema hall"'.  I personally feel it is important that the mainstream doesn't become a completely laughable scene in the interest of getting more people in future generations into the arts but I don't know that many here would agree with that.
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 04:59
It's all down to ones tastes ain't it? I personally prefer the good old days, and speaking from a drummer's point of view, I think the way things were done back then left infinitely more room for the other instruments to evolve in. When you play like some of the modern drumming gods (No, I'm not going to mention any names hereTongue) - you sort of eradicate the possibility of another road taken - an altogether different approach to a far too well trodden path. That is the down fall of being tight as hell, but in a metronomic sense of the word - focusing on impossible rhythms and poly-thangs. Things quickly get predictable.
The best drummers are just like the rest of any great musicians really - people who are not afraid of using their mistakes as something worthy of building on - instead of binning it instantly. Hendrix played like this, and that is what made him genius IMHO.

A modern drummer who follows this principle is Russian maniac Ivan Fedotov off Vespero, who reminds me of the good old days - only with far more caffeine in his blood stream...


Edited by Guldbamsen - February 23 2012 at 05:00
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 05:14
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

It's all down to ones tastes ain't it? I personally prefer the good old days, and speaking from a drummer's point of view, I think the way things were done back then left infinitely more room for the other instruments to evolve in. When you play like some of the modern drumming gods (No, I'm not going to mention any names hereTongue) - you sort of eradicate the possibility of another road taken - an altogether different approach to a far too well trodden path. That is the down fall of being tight as hell, but in a metronomic sense of the word - focusing on impossible rhythms and poly-thangs. Things quickly get predictable.
The best drummers are just like the rest of any great musicians really - people who are not afraid of using their mistakes as something worthy of building on - instead of binning it instantly. Hendrix played like this, and that is what made him genius IMHO.

A modern drummer who follows this principle is Russian maniac Ivan Fedotov off Vespero, who reminds me of the good old days - only with far more caffeine in his blood stream...

There is unfortunately a view these days that the slightest hint of a 'mistake' or 'inconsistency' is unprofessional or 'sloppy'.  Apparently, some drummers even paste one sample of the 'correct' fill wherever else it is used in the song to ensure perfect duplication because the same pattern should supposedly not sound different in a different part of the song. 

We really have got very far away from the point where rock was supposed to be imperfect, raw and soulful.  Rock is unfortunately just a vehicle for 'validation' of technical ability in the hands of some...I will not say all of them are like that.  I have been told that expecting mistakes or an element of chance rather than metronomic perfection is an old fashioned view. Well, now even Steven Wilson has come around to that view and tried to capture it in GfD so I wonder what do people have to say to that.


Edited by rogerthat - February 23 2012 at 05:19
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Points: 18146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:24
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I like spice of life variety.  And the 70's had it in spades.   Where are the melodic drummers like Bruford today? Where are the off beat drummers,  that could play a drum fill like Bonham? So unexpected, but better than anything I could imagine, given 30 years.    Decades later,  I can still recall the rhythums, and drum fills these guys created and played.  ...
 
Thank you ... and to me this is what made for great drumming. You can add Mani Neumeier here and when you listen to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums by Guru Guru, you get the idea that Mani does not play rhythm ... he's actually countering and giving the guitarist a hard time! Pierre is a bit different, sort of out in space in tea land (for sure) but he manages to make the albums he was on sound spectacular ("You" specially with the unbelievable drumming on the 2 long cuts back to back that you can not teach any drummer at all.!)
 
I think that the issue was not so much the "drumming" in that time, as it was the permissiveness to allow you to be more of yourself and create your own expression which the movement in the 60's was really all about ... we forget that when discussing "progressive" and how important that "detail" was to the definition of the music itself.
 
I will never state that today's music is not good, there are some excellent things out there, however, too many of them are totally conventional within the same song format with a different riff over it, or a different sound effect, and I do not believe that is a good description of "prog" or "progressive" at all ... the folks in the 60's and 70's were not exactly just showing their ability to count 1234 ... but today ... listen to that drumming and time keeping ... is that all there is in the music?


Edited by moshkito - February 23 2012 at 07:28
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Points: 18146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:27
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
Read that apparently he hadn't heard or feigned to not know of Peart and Bruford but said he liked Steve Gadd.  This is what some fan who claims to have talked to Rich says, so I don't have it on quote.
 
Listen to the early albums by Ricky Lee Jones with Steve Gadd ... he makes those three albums and gets her to stretch the pipes instead of just a regular song ... and when he is no longer there all of a sudden it is blues or some NO stuff or something else ... and not Ricky any more! What made her, is long forgotten and not heard today ... things like "we belong together" are so progressive compared to many things we listen to here that it's not funny!
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Points: 18146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:32
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Train of Thought, as metal as they were on that album, features Mike Portnoy at his peak. Say what you want about his skills nowadays, but he has played some seriously complicated stuff ion that album. He's kind of been riding out that peak ever since, and is still solid, but he's admitted to not practicing anymore, so I can't defend him post-Octavarium.
...
 
I don't think that it is that complicated ... it just has more drums than anyone else and it looks like it's complicated ... but just because you can get 16 hits in a beat, doesn't mean you are a great drummer ... maybe time keeper, which Mike definitly is, but a touch drummer he is not and will never be because the stuff that he stix to is not well known for detail to depth and feeling except loudness and more effects!
 
He is, however, an excellent showman ... and in many ways he reminds me of Ozzy ... you could not keep your eyes off the turkey and he always managed to get your attention on stage! That has NOTHING to do with his drumming and showing off by throwing a stick to the audience!
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Points: 18146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:44
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Well, the mainstream has gotten more crap now and maybe people base their assumptions about the entire music scene on the mainstream (not saying that is correct at all, but that's how stereotypes evolve).   Let's not forget Yes and ELP were massive live draws back then, especially ELP.  But that has less to do with any objective base of quality but a change in the way the music business (or for that matter, Hollywood) operates.  
...
 
One of my biggest concerns has always been that if YES and ELP came out today, or KC for that matter, that the majority of the fans today would call the music pretentious and boring. That talking to the wind (and not listening) is stupid and not politically correct in the top ten design of things ... that individuality is against the socialistic mold of the top ten where of the ten songs, 6 of them have the same drum beats!
 
While those bands were massive draws in concert, the reality was that they were STILL not played on radio and not quite favored by the record companies, until YES broke huge with Fragile, and then ELP with Trilogy. Up until that time, Roundabout was never played on AM radio and was never a hit, and Lucky Man had a shortened version for a single on AM radio. It was on the FM dial that these made it big, as well as KC, because at the time, FM radio, specially in America, was about the counter culture fighting the establishment that AM radio represented ... and still does ... by making you think that this and that is the number one or two! They still control your ideas and thinking!
 
The single biggest thing today, is that radio, and tv, or concerts are no longer as important as each band's ability to do their own work and sell their own ... heck ... if my own band can sell 300k dollars of CD's and stuff every year, why do I need radio or tv or Prog Archives? ... I don't! see the point? ... I'm making it on my own. And this was really important, even when Marillion about 20 years ago, was broke and posted it on their website and they got several thousand folks to help them do their next album ... and that was the last straw that showed Gong, and many other bands, that they could get it on with the fans and the websites and tell the record companies and the fickle public fan'dom to take a serious hike.
 
Today, we seem to think that some bands are good, or better, because they sell more (again the top ten thing), and the discussion about the music dies with the favoritism all around. I think that we have lost the ability to know what musicianship means and what the art of it all is all about. The majority of stuff that I'm hearing is nothing but more commercial music for the hit-ridden society. I just listened to The Mars Volta new thing ... and I am having a hard time finding originality in there and forms of music that are new ... it's the same format! Nice stuff, no doubt ... and I think that it helps distort the definition of "music" per se. Again, if you sell enough, you can do this and not have to work at a restaurant 40 hours per week with no benefits ... so in the end, it comes off like you, I or anyone else, couldn't careless what you think and I will continue to write my own stuff ... and sooner or later someone goes ... you know they have done 7 albums ... and blah and blah ... and we all agree ... it's not great but it's very good and deserving of the mentions we give them. No question there ... but to compare them to the "masters" or the inventors of the era we discuss is too far a stretch that I am not sure can be bridged that easily.


Edited by moshkito - February 23 2012 at 07:54
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 09:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Train of Thought, as metal as they were on that album, features Mike Portnoy at his peak. Say what you want about his skills nowadays, but he has played some seriously complicated stuff ion that album. He's kind of been riding out that peak ever since, and is still solid, but he's admitted to not practicing anymore, so I can't defend him post-Octavarium.
...
 
I don't think that it is that complicated ... it just has more drums than anyone else and it looks like it's complicated ... but just because you can get 16 hits in a beat, doesn't mean you are a great drummer ... maybe time keeper, which Mike definitly is, but a touch drummer he is not and will never be because the stuff that he stix to is not well known for detail to depth and feeling except loudness and more effects!
 
He is, however, an excellent showman ... and in many ways he reminds me of Ozzy ... you could not keep your eyes off the turkey and he always managed to get your attention on stage! That has NOTHING to do with his drumming and showing off by throwing a stick to the audience!


I know the limits of Portnoy's playing. I was just saying, he is good at what he does, and that ToT was the peak of his abilities.
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Points: 775 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 11:20
I mostly love Portnoy's massive fills... but yeah the best drumming technically was during the jazz age I'd say
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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 15:11
Metal wise i prefer Brann Dailor, one of my favorite drummers. Aginor can back me up on his skill, as he is a big fan too.
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Points: 8778 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2012 at 16:57
Some of those 70s prog and fusion drummers were brilliant, and still sound brilliant, today

       people like Curt Cress of Passport and Jo Koinzer of Brainstorm, to name but a few
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Points: 29590 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2012 at 01:41
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Train of Thought, as metal as they were on that album, features Mike Portnoy at his peak. Say what you want about his skills nowadays, but he has played some seriously complicated stuff ion that album. He's kind of been riding out that peak ever since, and is still solid, but he's admitted to not practicing anymore, so I can't defend him post-Octavarium.
...
 
I don't think that it is that complicated ... it just has more drums than anyone else and it looks like it's complicated ... but just because you can get 16 hits in a beat, doesn't mean you are a great drummer ... maybe time keeper, which Mike definitly is, but a touch drummer he is not and will never be because the stuff that he stix to is not well known for detail to depth and feeling except loudness and more effects!
 
He is, however, an excellent showman ... and in many ways he reminds me of Ozzy ... you could not keep your eyes off the turkey and he always managed to get your attention on stage! That has NOTHING to do with his drumming and showing off by throwing a stick to the audience!


I know the limits of Portnoy's playing. I was just saying, he is good at what he does, and that ToT was the peak of his abilities.
Six Degrees to me was much more impressive. I don't think Dt were ever as expansive before or since and Portnoy revelled in it.
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