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The Doctor 
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 Posted: October 30 2011 at 22:35 |
 progistoomainstream wrote:
sideburndude... wrote:
The Empire Strikes Back is easily the best film.
I really do not enjoy the prequels for various reasons, I don't think there was one line of speech that made sense, who was the main character in The Phantom Menace? Why was jar jar Binks even in the films? What was the plot? There are so many things wrong in the Prequels I could go for a long time, this all what I think of course.
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I counted. In the scrolling beginning of ep. 1 there are three things that are just so backward and make no sense. 1.The trade fedaration blockade a small planet that nobody cares about for a trade issue that is never explained 2.The Jedi (peace keepers of the galaxy) were sent to negotiate trade. Jedi know nothing about trade. 3.Why are the trade federation doing this in the first place? Three large flaws and we are only 1:30 into the movie. |
1. Under the orders of Senator Palpatine/Darth Sidious (who was the senator from Naboo) in order to create a sympathy vote in the Senate so he could be elected Supreme Chancellor (on his way to becoming Emperor). They were upset about being taxed on their trade routes - that's the trade issue. 2. They were sent to negotiate an end to the blockade of the planet, not trade issues. 3. See answer to number one.
Edited by The Doctor - October 30 2011 at 22:36
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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progistoomainstream
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 22:36 |
Atavachron wrote:
Oy, you really don't like SW, now you're just nitpicking; Clone uniforms? Do I really need to start making more stuff up that's pretty clear? And who cares what color a uniform is, besides the Clones were smart and the Troopers were not-- why? Because we have evidence in our time that clones deteriorate over time into, if you'll excuse the pun, sheep
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I have a list of roughly 140 things that don;t make any sense in the prequels. I only have a list of about 10 with the originals.
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The Doctor
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 22:39 |
progistoomainstream wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Oy, you really don't like SW, now you're just nitpicking; Clone uniforms? Do I really need to start making more stuff up that's pretty clear? And who cares what color a uniform is, besides the Clones were smart and the Troopers were not-- why? Because we have evidence in our time that clones deteriorate over time into, if you'll excuse the pun, sheep
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I have a list of roughly 140 things that don;t make any sense in the prequels. I only have a list of about 10 with the originals. |
Then you, my friend, have far too much time on your hands. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 22:39 |
The Doctor wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
I think Lucas actually intended something like that. That things in the originals didn't work as well and were more beat up than in the prequels.
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Yes but it was still retroactive: he had to figure that kind of stuff out after the first three movies |
No. I think he actually intended it prior to the first three movies. I remember him talking about the originals and talking about creating a "dirty future" - in which things were run down because of the Empire. At least, he said he intended it that way from the beginning.
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For sure, but much of the details came later, i.e. he didn't give R2 jets in the sequels because he didn't know he'd be able to film such a scene in the future, that notion came later as things evolved and fell into place
Edited by Atavachron - October 30 2011 at 22:46
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stonebeard
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 22:43 |
I think Lucas can't write characters very well, though he happened to make them very iconic. As has been stated before, basically all of the characters in the first trilogy are one-dimensional. I can watch all of episodes IV-VI easily because I tie them to my childhood and they're cool popcorn movies, but they're all really simplistic and kind of silly. Compare that to the main problems of the new trilogy. No one can act. At all. or maybe the problem is that Lucas can't write, which seems more likely since Liam Neeson is a boss. It all just led me not to care at all about any of the 100 new characters with weird names that the three films introduced.
Empire I guess. derp.
Edited by stonebeard - October 30 2011 at 22:44
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:07 |
Unusually, the SW movie I like less is The Empire Strikes Back, all the rest have at lñeast a temporal ending, in this case it's too unfinished and IMO forced.
Iván
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The T
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:21 |
stonebeard wrote:
I think Lucas can't write characters very well, though he happened to make them very iconic. As has been stated before, basically all of the characters in the first trilogy are one-dimensional. I can watch all of episodes IV-VI easily because I tie them to my childhood and they're cool popcorn movies, but they're all really simplistic and kind of silly. Compare that to the main problems of the new trilogy. No one can act. At all. or maybe the problem is that Lucas can't write, which seems more likely since Liam Neeson is a boss. It all just led me not to care at all about any of the 100 new characters with weird names that the three films introduced.
Empire I guess. derp. |
Some traditionally good actors like Samuel Jackson and Natalie Portman are quite bad in some moments of the prequels, yet I still prefer the prequels' actors over such a lousy big hero like Mark Hammil. Harrison Ford is the one saving face specially in the first one.
And the saber fights, please...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:26 |
progistoomainstream wrote:
I counted. In the scrolling beginning of ep. 1 there are three things that are just so backward and make no sense. 1.The trade fedaration blockade a small planet that nobody cares about for a trade issue that is never explained 2.The Jedi (peace keepers of the galaxy) were sent to negotiate trade. Jedi know nothing about trade. 3.Why are the trade federation doing this in the first place? Three large flaws and we are only 1:30 into the movie. |
That ones are easy;
- The Trader Federation was controlled by Palpatine who was born in Naboo, and being the Senator of a small invaded planet, would grant him sympathy and support to reach the position of Chancellor.
- Well, they studied since they were 3 years or maybe less, probably trade was part of their studies, or maybe they sent one Jedi with special trade knowledge.
- Because they were controlled by Palpatine with promises of reward if he was elected chancellor.
Well, that's my guess.
Iván
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SaltyJon
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Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:56 |
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I've grown up with the original three, and while I enjoy the new ones as well, Ep. V will probably always be my favorite.
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progistoomainstream
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 00:16 |
The Doctor wrote:
progistoomainstream wrote:
Well First of all don't you find R2 keeping his mouth shut a little weak. And yes historically there have been warrior classes destroyed in virtually one day (the knights templar is what I presume you are saying0 but don't you think the Jedi would have found out there is an execute order that involves killing all of them? And no Jenga was not in a hurry and usually careful people (like Jenga was portrayed to be) will double check. And didn't it seem like uncle owen and aunt beru were ok with luke going to join the rebellion they just wanted him to go because they needed help for the harvest? Another thing, why did the prequels have to shoehorn important charecters from the originals in as secondary charecters? the droids, Bobba Fett, Chubacca. They don't need to be there. They are just wasting time that could be better spent doing stuff that has more to do with the big overarching theme of the prequels. And don't you find it odd how the Clones had different coloured uniforms but the Storm Troopers did not? Basically the prequels could have been miles better written. |
Not at all. In Ep. IV, R2 showed that he was perfectly capable of keeping his mouth shut by not telling Luke more about the hologram of Princess Leia until they met up with Obi-Wan. The execute order was issued and carried out within a matter of hours. I don't care how powerful you are in the force, when you're caught off-guard like that, that kind of information can't be transmitted that quickly. NO! Uncle Owen was absolutely NOT ok with Luke joining the rebellion or becoming a Jedi. That's what he was trying to stop. The "harvest" was just an excuse. And finally, I don't find it odd about the clone troopers uniforms' vs. the stormtroopers'. That actually seems a minor thing. Uniforms change. I had never even given that much thought. I think the fact that Yoda and Obi-Wan for 19 years didn't think to team up and take on Vader themselves instead of waiting around for some kid is a much, much bigger plot problem. And only hinting at the Emperor's power in the originals to Luke, instead of telling him straight out "The Emperor is a bad a** Sith Lord. He will ...... your ...... up if you're not careful." What was that all about? Did they want the Emperor to kill him?
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Yes. Obi Wan and Yoda could have teamed up and fought vader. But they were also old and weak. They could have done it but would have been nice to have some help from a young energetic Jedi. And whats the point in doing it without Luke, The son of the Chosen One. He's going to have some special powers that no Jedi has. If you watch #1 you will find that in the first 5 minutes of the movie not one thing makes any sense at all. "They must be dead now. Destroy whats left of them"."Let's go down with the army that is about to invade to tell the people there will be an invasion" and the fact that you know only basic details about what the Jedi are trying to acheive. Then they split up and could have been taken miles apart on the different ships they stowed away on. THE MOVIE ALREADY MAKES NO SENSE.I actually have 100 faults just in that movie.
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progistoomainstream
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 00:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
progistoomainstream wrote:
I counted. In the scrolling beginning of ep. 1 there are three things that are just so backward and make no sense. 1.The trade fedaration blockade a small planet that nobody cares about for a trade issue that is never explained 2.The Jedi (peace keepers of the galaxy) were sent to negotiate trade. Jedi know nothing about trade. 3.Why are the trade federation doing this in the first place? Three large flaws and we are only 1:30 into the movie. |
That ones are easy; - The Trader Federation was controlled by Palpatine who was born in Naboo, and being the Senator of a small invaded planet, would grant him sympathy and support to reach the position of Chancellor.
- Well, they studied since they were 3 years or maybe less, probably trade was part of their studies, or maybe they sent one Jedi with special trade knowledge.
- Because they were controlled by Palpatine with promises of reward if he was elected chancellor.
Well, that's my guess. Iván |
But they were not given incentive from palpatine. They knew nothing of who he was or what he wanted For all they know he is a shadowy figure. Why are they even following him? And what are the details of taxing trade routes? Why is it that when anakin first appears a talking pizza roll comes on screen and starts speaking directly to me? Who is the main character. Why did Obi wan train anakin when he obviously was annoyed by him? And why was qui gon gin so stupid? He's supposed to be the wise Jedi. You never really get to know any character in depth in the first movie and there is often just too much going on.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 03:44 |
All lists should at least acknowledge the originals over the prequels -
anyway heres the list from my POV (and i saw em all at the cinema when they were originally screened) and best scenes noted
1. A New Hope - the opening ten minutes! 2. The Empire Strikes Back - Luke Vs Vader
3. Revenge of the Sith - the opening 5 minutes, the final 5 minutes 4. Return of the Jedi - speeder bikes 5. Attack of the Clones - Geonosis gladiator beasts
6. The Phantom Menace - pod race
Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - October 31 2011 at 03:47
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The Doctor
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 09:55 |
Or howzabout this little gem:
Luke: It's you, Leia. You're my sister.
Leia: I know. Somehow I've always known. And yet I still decided to play tonsil hockey with you in the last movie.
Also, not quite as amusing at the prior one, but why is all the focus on Vader in the originals as far as Yoda and Kenobi are concerned. Yoda and Kenobi seem to think that bringing down Vader is the most important thing, as if that will somehow make the empire magically crumble to dust. When really the focus should be on getting rid of Sidious. He is arguably the more powerful Sith Lord and also has the full might of the Imperial army behind him. He is the one who must be destroyed to end the empire. Neither Yoda or Kenobi expected Anakin to turn back to the light and kill Sidious, so what was their plan for Sidious once Vader was destroyed? I think this is probably the biggest flaw in the originals. That and their waiting 19 years for Luke to grow up to take on the empire.
Edited by The Doctor - October 31 2011 at 11:12
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 16:33 |
progistoomainstream wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
progistoomainstream wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
I find that a fault of the originals not the prequels. 
I loved the originals when I was a kid, but for the most part, I now find the originals to be nothing more than a pretty one-dimensional adventure romp with one-D characters. I think the prequels have so much more going on, and the character development I find much deeper. Plus Darth Sidious is just cool as hell. And you don't get much of him in the originals.
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But they make absolutely no sense when you tack them on to the originals. Like really, Who is the phantom menace? they don't say. In the orignals it is made to seem like "uncle owen" knew Luke's Father but in the prequels you see that anakin was an only child and only met owen once. And just how quickly "the clone wars" happened was way out of line with what Obi won implied was a long long war.And not to mention how you know that anakin is going to put on the suit in the end of #3. The list goes on and on. I am not against the prequels. They are ok when taken separate from the originals. But the second you say that the originals and the prequels follow in the same plot, they just lack sense. |
To answer your questions. The Phantom Menace was the Sith. Uncle Owen also knew Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan could easily have told Owen what had happened to Anakin. The Clone Wars lasted three years, which may not be the longest war in history, but at the same time, I don't remember Obi-Wan implying that it was. Of course, we knew Anakin was going to put on the suit at the end of Ep. 3, but this isn't a mistake of any kind, simply the nature of prequels. But for me, really, it doesn't matter if the prequels fit well into the originals (and yes, there are some mistakes - "I don't remember ever owning a droid"). But instead of not liking the prequels because of it, I'm more of the opinion that the originals should be remade to fall more in line with the prequels.
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But the originals were made first when George Lucas was younger and had more active living brain cells. And didn't Owen call kenobi a "crazy old wizard" and told luke not to listen to him? And can you imagine the nerd rage if the originals were re-made? Not to mention, the originals make more sense wthin themselves compared to the prequesl. like in #1 "they're dead, destroy what's left of them" and the really stupid "oh no the droid army is going to attack naboo. Lets go down with them to warn the people" And in ep. 2 How Jenga Fett's ship didn't read that Obi won was on an asteroid. and in ep.3 how literally all the Jedi were destroyed in the course of a day. and how they just have to shove C3PO and R2-D2 into the prequels and how they don't remember that they knew vader when he was skywalker. |
Revenge of the Sith showed the slaughter of a few select Jedi.Palpatine's Purge,which began with Order 66,lasted for 19 years and there were still a handful of Jedi left after that.
The droid's don't remember Anakin because their memories were wiped,that is even stated at the end of Ep. 3.
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 16:36 |
In order:
The Empire Strikes Back A New Hope Revenge of the Sith Return of the Jedi Attack of the Clones The Phantom Menace
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progistoomainstream
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 18:26 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
progistoomainstream wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
progistoomainstream wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
I find that a fault of the originals not the prequels.
I loved the originals when I was a kid, but for the most part, I now find the originals to be nothing more than a pretty one-dimensional adventure romp with one-D characters. I think the prequels have so much more going on, and the character development I find much deeper. Plus Darth Sidious is just cool as hell. And you don't get much of him in the originals.
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But they make absolutely no sense when you tack them on to the originals. Like really, Who is the phantom menace? they don't say. In the orignals it is made to seem like "uncle owen" knew Luke's Father but in the prequels you see that anakin was an only child and only met owen once. And just how quickly "the clone wars" happened was way out of line with what Obi won implied was a long long war.And not to mention how you know that anakin is going to put on the suit in the end of #3. The list goes on and on. I am not against the prequels. They are ok when taken separate from the originals. But the second you say that the originals and the prequels follow in the same plot, they just lack sense. |
To answer your questions. The Phantom Menace was the Sith. Uncle Owen also knew Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan could easily have told Owen what had happened to Anakin. The Clone Wars lasted three years, which may not be the longest war in history, but at the same time, I don't remember Obi-Wan implying that it was. Of course, we knew Anakin was going to put on the suit at the end of Ep. 3, but this isn't a mistake of any kind, simply the nature of prequels. But for me, really, it doesn't matter if the prequels fit well into the originals (and yes, there are some mistakes - "I don't remember ever owning a droid"). But instead of not liking the prequels because of it, I'm more of the opinion that the originals should be remade to fall more in line with the prequels.
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But the originals were made first when George Lucas was younger and had more active living brain cells. And didn't Owen call kenobi a "crazy old wizard" and told luke not to listen to him? And can you imagine the nerd rage if the originals were re-made? Not to mention, the originals make more sense wthin themselves compared to the prequesl. like in #1 "they're dead, destroy what's left of them" and the really stupid "oh no the droid army is going to attack naboo. Lets go down with them to warn the people" And in ep. 2 How Jenga Fett's ship didn't read that Obi won was on an asteroid. and in ep.3 how literally all the Jedi were destroyed in the course of a day. and how they just have to shove C3PO and R2-D2 into the prequels and how they don't remember that they knew vader when he was skywalker. |
But don't you think the Jedi would know that there was an execute order against them before it was enacted. And wasn't it said in the originals that Darth Vader hunted down and killed all the Jedi not the clones? Darth Vader Killed only the ones in the temple instead of actually hunting down the Jedi.
Revenge of the Sith showed the slaughter of a few select Jedi.Palpatine's Purge,which began with Order 66,lasted for 19 years and there were still a handful of Jedi left after that.
The droid's don't remember Anakin because their memories were wiped,that is even stated at the end of Ep. 3. |
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 21:09 |
The Jedi couldn't know of the order,on account of the dark side clouding their perception of the Force(remember,they initially didn't suspect Palpatine).When Order 66 was issued,high ranking Jedi,particularly those on the Jedi Council,were killed first.Vader spent years tracking down and executing Jedi(mostly Masters),but Jedi were also hunted down and killed by Emperor's Hands.Dark Jedi,Inquisitors and bounty hunters.
It must also be noted that not all clone units obeyed Order 66.Some squads questioned it,and even when the order was confirmed refused to carry it out because they had become close to the Jedi they fought alongside of.
Edited by TheProgtologist - October 31 2011 at 21:18
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 21:22 |
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^ The real question is what specific Dark method was clouding things. Yoda mentions the Jedi's "weakness" and how only a Sith Lord would know what it was, but we're never informed what it is. I always felt it suggests if a person or feeling is hidden behind genuine, or what appears to be genuine intentions, the Jedi may not be able to see past it. In other words if you're a really good liar/actor, you can conceal your true motives.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 21:46 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
The Jedi couldn't know of the order,on account of the dark side clouding their perception of the Force(remember,they initially didn't suspect Palpatine).When Order 66 was issued,high ranking Jedi,particularly those on the Jedi Council,were killed first.Vader spent years tracking down and executing Jedi(mostly Masters),but Jedi were also hunted down and killed by Emperor's Hands.Dark Jedi,Inquisitors and bounty hunters.
It must also be noted that not all clone units obeyed Order 66.Some squads questioned it,and even when the order was confirmed refused to carry it out because they had become close to the Jedi they fought alongside of. |
 This guy knows his stuff.
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: October 31 2011 at 21:51 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ The real question is what specific Dark method was clouding things. Yoda mentions the Jedi's "weakness" and how only a Sith Lord would know what it was, but we're never informed what it is. I always felt it suggests if a person or feeling is hidden behind genuine, or what appears to be genuine intentions, the Jedi may not be able to see past it. In other words if you're a really good liar/actor, you can conceal your true motives.
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Good question David.There are no dark side abilities I know of that specifically allow an adept to hide their presence while remaining in plain sight.Sidious' master Darth Plagueis give him access to many ancient Sith holocrons,recorded in the time of Darth Bane.Maybe he learned something on one of those ancient information devices,and after killing his master,didn't pass it on to his own apprentices.
Edited by TheProgtologist - October 31 2011 at 21:53
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The Best Star Wars Movie
