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moshkito View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:03
Hi,
 
America is definitly the throwaway culture ... and it it so clear and vivid in the top ten world from music to Hollywood ... to anything else.
 
The download mentality is due to change by the time that more educated and intelligent people get on to it ... the type and quality of music will change ... and I think that the top hit mentality will lose its luster some.
 
Part of the reason is that the classical music world, jazz world and other less popular adventures were, and still are, way too slow to make sure their material gets out there for people to hear ... and this makes music available for one crowd ... but you don't see the folks that go to the Symphony once every 6 months getting online to download Beethoven's 6th Symphony!
 
Hopefully in the near future someone will make Apple look silly and Napster look like kid diapers ... and I would imagine that some sites will be known for this and others for that and others for something else ... and I think at that time, other forms of music have a better chance of being heard and appreciated.
 
The nature of the "hit/advertising" nation is hurting a lot of other musical styles, scenes ... as the music company glut tends to rush over to yet another copy of some rap (for example) through advertising ... so they can also score some more money. In the end, this will not only hurt those music folks themselves, but also the perception of the public ... that only what sells is good ... and even that is an issue here on this board, as some of the most defended groups, happen to be the ones that sell the most ... everyone can discuss Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP ... and people can argue about Dream Theater ... and things kinda drop off big time after that ... discussions on smaller groups ... and specially those from non-English speaking countries ... is really poor ... and relegated almost exclusively to fans ...
 
What it will take, is other countries, like France, or Italy, getting on the ball and start doing an iClassic and only sell classical music ... and I think something like that will eventually throw some balance into things ... and it has to be done by a country that has no respect (or care) for the American thing ... so their own artists and music, also has a chance to be heard elsewhere.
 
But on a side note ... look at the discussions here ... people treating "prog music" as if they were songs ... and that is exactly what most of it ... is not (for the most part) ... and that is not to say that some of this music does not have a song structure, but that in itself is like saying that classical music never had a structure that was not copied by musicians that wanted to do something different with their music, or musicians that were sensible and intelligent enough to create something else.
 
It's not difficult to notice on this board ... anytime a discussion gets into quotidian/academic designs/defines, the whole thing tends to get trashed by jokes and comments that deter from the discussion and topic itself. It is akin to a classroom, and too many of the people are not capable of concentrating on a whole lot more than the small song mentality and structure ... and fail to appreciate a discussion and different point of view. It is in fact one of my disappointments ... you can check some of the posts that I have on these same situations.


Edited by moshkito - October 01 2009 at 10:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:06
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

It is almost impossible to buy prog cds where I live; it took nearly two months for my local music shop to get Larks Tongues in Aspic! I use mostly ITunes or e music; the fact that I don’t get a physically product doesn’t bother me since I immediately burn a copy of the album and print out the album cover for the jewel case. Bashing mp3s and the whole download culture is easy if you have the luxury to be able to easily purchase prog cds but for those of us who struggle to get even the odd Yes or E.L.P. album mp3’s are a godsend. Buying mp3s and Listening to them on an iPod may not please the purists but I’m not interested in how prog should be brought and listened to; I just want to know where I can buy prog and listen to it easily and mp3’s and iPods suit me perfectly since without them I wouldn’t even have any prog to begin with.

I have the same problem, the only place I have seen any prog is at Barnes and Nobles, and they only have a limited selection.

As far as album art goes, I like having a physical copy. I found a signed printing of PF's Animals cover, but $2500 Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:22
I remember when I was growing up it was a real treat to save up for an album and I used to be a lot more choosy about what I purchased. There seemed to be something satisfying about holding an album in your hands. It was a work art musically and graphically for my £3.99 or £4.99 I had a product I could see and touch and become at one with.
 
 
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exactly what i used to do, yet those download samples can be useful, they are a great way to "taste" what the tracks on a new album might sound like before purchasing, and many many old ones i never got round to hearing. Wink
 
downloading  seems to have taken over from the old music centre culture for cherry-picking tracks on an LP except then you had to buy the album first!  but as said 80 pence a track is really a rip-off when the CD can be bought for £2 or so, yet skipping tracks on a CD or download site is like buying a book then ripping out one or two chapters, the whole is lost.  On an LP  the album is presented as the artist has designed it and those tracks you would have skipped are given a chance to blossom with its artistic integrity intact. Smile
 
 


Edited by mystic fred - October 01 2009 at 10:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:34
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

It is almost impossible to buy prog cds where I live; it took nearly two months for my local music shop to get Larks Tongues in Aspic! I use mostly ITunes or e music; the fact that I don’t get a physically product doesn’t bother me since I immediately burn a copy of the album and print out the album cover for the jewel case. Bashing mp3s and the whole download culture is easy if you have the luxury to be able to easily purchase prog cds but for those of us who struggle to get even the odd Yes or E.L.P. album mp3’s are a godsend. Buying mp3s and Listening to them on an iPod may not please the purists but I’m not interested in how prog should be brought and listened to; I just want to know where I can buy prog and listen to it easily and mp3’s and iPods suit me perfectly since without them I wouldn’t even have any prog to begin with.
I have the same problem, the only place I have seen any prog is at Barnes and Nobles, and they only have a limited selection.
As far as album art goes, I like having a physical copy. I found a signed printing of PF's Animals cover, but $2500 Confused 
 
I have been getting all my CD's  via email/website for almost 20 years ... what hurt the distribution of a lot of music in the 80's was the lack of access to the stuff and that made a lot of the progressive scene appear to not be as active as it continued to be and was.
 
Nowadays, there is no reason ... there are no bands out there that would be foolish enough not to have a site with their music samples for you to hear, and not to have a way to sell their material ... and my hope was 20 years ago that Gong, and some of the other stuff I was close to, could/should have done this in order to take hold of their material and control it better ... and not be run by someone else stealing the money! ... like that guy with the colored flying balls! Gong finally did with Johnny and Mike ... around 1994 or so ... but there are some major folks (prog as well) that still are not well represented ... Alan Stivell comes to mind -- specially considering his massive catalogue!


Edited by moshkito - October 01 2009 at 10:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:04
What I dislike the most about MP3s and all downloadable digital music is the fact that I feel it's so insecure, I could lose it every minute. All your collection depends on a computer which could die or your hard drive be damaged. Even if you store music in several external hard drives you're still depending on those for your collection to survive. And, of course, you have to keep spending.  Instead of spending, say, 15 USD in an album, you end up spending in the tracks, and in several programs and securities for your colection like anti-viruses, external harddrives, accesories, etc... No matter what you say the advent of digital music (let's call it that way even though CDS could also be called digital) has no basis in quality but just in making us buy more sh*t. Nothing else. Consumism at its purest.
 
What the OP said in one of his sentences was very accurate. People these days brag about having, "owning" 6000 songs. The focus now in many people is to simply HAVE music, not to enjoy it, listen to it. Yes, 6000 songs, of which probably only 100 they have really heard. With cds, most people at least heard every cd ONCE, with physical music you kind of feel compelled to give every record a try. Downloadable MP3s just encourage you to... have more.
 
Please, don't think your case is the rule. It's the exception. Music fans who actually listen to all their MP3s are an exception. You are not the rule.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:06
Thanks for a nice topic and post, Adrian.

Originally posted by terryl terryl wrote:

...on pirate downloading. My apologies to the band here. I went to all registration into this forum in order to say to the band that I am sorry to have downloaded Sleeping I and II in their entirety. After a month of listening i decided I really love your albums I bought them both from Ebay.

This is what I do as well. I buy what I really like, I certainly don't want to pay money for things that does not bring me pleasure. I think I feel the same pleasure of having the artwork etc. in your hands as some poeple here have expressed, but I would not feel the same if I didn't like the music, a record is mainly about the music, after all. 
In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:11
^ but maybe, in time, the exception can become the rule. And even if not, haven't people who take music seriously always been an exception?

BTW: It's not like people who collect CDs or records aren't susceptible to bragging ... and over the years I've seen several posts where people with really big collections mentioned that there were many albums in their collections that they haven't listened to yet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:20
Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:

In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
no, but you wouldn't borrow it either Wink
 
There are plenty of ways to try-before-you-buy that don't involve d/loading.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:25
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ but maybe, in time, the exception can become the rule. And even if not, haven't people who take music seriously always been an exception?

BTW: It's not like people who collect CDs or records aren't susceptible to bragging ... and over the years I've seen several posts where people with really big collections mentioned that there were many albums in their collections that they haven't listened to yet.
 
That's true. But then again, when you brag about a collection of records you even have something physical to brag about..LOL In the other case, you have to say "excuse me while I turn on my computer where I store pretty much all that's important in my life: memories, photographs, documents, and now even music". And as you mentioned Mike, when you compared a reproduction of a painting to a jpeg, now even pictures!
 
Really, the dependency on one single device to manage everything scares me. We'll depend for everything on an computer.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:40
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's not difficult to notice on this board ... anytime a discussion gets into quotidian/academic designs/defines, the whole thing tends to get trashed by jokes and comments that deter from the discussion and topic itself. It is akin to a classroom, and too many of the people are not capable of concentrating on a whole lot more than the small song mentality and structure ... and fail to appreciate a discussion and different point of view. It is in fact one of my disappointments ... you can check some of the posts that I have on these same situations.
 
I notice this sometimes. It's what I get for being a philosophy prick. Cry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:43
I only listen to vinyl nowadays, though I have a big download mp3 collection. Since I started playing vinyl I bigan to dispise the sound of digital music. There's just nothing in it for me.

One of the things I like about vinyl is that I mostly by second hand versions of records and therefore could see it as recycling! There's no production needed for my musical collecton's expension .

Downloading music is damaging the way people listen to music in my oppinion. On a vinyl record I never skip songs (it isn't easy) and I tend to listen to the whole record. The complete experience of an album is very important, missing out on one song can destroy that experience.

My last point. Digital art on your computer screen isn't art. It might sound a bit extreme... but I wouldn't make love to a photo of my girlfriend either, I want the real deal. There's enough fakeness in our pleasure culture, let rock music please stay real.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:

In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
no, but you wouldn't borrow it either Wink
 
Hehe, well, in a sense I think you actually borrow it. When you go to a gallery (might be a bad example), you take part in or percieve the whole artwork or whatever in some way and you take part in that stream (or lack) of emotions and it's all very cheesy, but you take a part of it with you. And then, maybe you decide to buy it.
And the artwork is freely available to the public, well, sometimes with entrance fees.
The entrance fee can be seen as the money you pay for the internet connection, and all the downloadable mp3s are paintings, and then you give them a good look, and then maybe you decide to buy the ones you like.
Does that make any sense at all? Haha.

With music, I don't think listening through the album once at the music store or whatever always gives you enough of an impression of the album to decide if you really like it or not. And the library collection is nothing to speak of (where I live, anyway). Would like to hear more examples of try-before-you-buy-thingsSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:54
Great discussion folks.  
In many ways this comes down to Marshall McLuhan's old adage, "the medium is the message."  A technology is never just a transparent means of delivering music, it fundamentally transforms the nature of the music, how it's made, produced, experienced, etc.  Hell, Bing Crosby became a star because of the development of the microphone--the close, low croon as opposed to the operatic belting out--and pop music changed forever.
MP3s obviously represent a further miniaturizing and condensing of sound from the miniaturization and condensation offered by CDs.  We can easily get nostalgic about lost forms (I know I often do), but they were already b*****dizations of something that came before.  I have a colleague who just retired who swore by his 78s!

The greater effect of MP3s is, as many have said here, the increasing loss of the physical and visual dimension of an album, but it also leads to greater fragmentation, shorter listening patience, which is not good for prog or album-length ideas.  Will a future of MP3s, and their inevitable replacement, be able to produce another Sgt Pepper or [fill in the blank]?  Yet, when I get down about this, I think of a band like The Residents who keep adapting to new technologies and their recent work, The Bunny Boy, was designed with You Tube and other new media in mind, and it was stunningly creative for doing that--the album wasn't the center of the experience.

The bigger impact, again as others have said, will be the notion that music is supposed to be free.  When I speak with my students most of them already assume this is the case.  The concept of paying for music seems absurd to them.  This is when I feel dystopian and desperate.  For everyone who wants to claim that myspace (or myface as Jeremy Clarkson nicely puts it) gets more musicians out there with greater, broader possibilities, I want to know how will these musicians be able to keep making music if no one is paying for it?  The real potential here, in the not too distant future, is the end of the whole notion of the professional musician.  Which is terribly sad to me, but, then again, that was a new idea that dawned in the 17th century. So perhaps we've just come to an end of a modern idea.  Maybe this will all lead to everyone being a musician and no one being a star.  Can't say I'm feeling terribly optimistic about it all, I must say.  But, as the Firesign Theatre once (nearly) said, Everything I Know is Wrong. 
God, that was a long one!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:25
Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:

In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
no, but you wouldn't borrow it either Wink
 
Hehe, well, in a sense I think you actually borrow it. When you go to a gallery (might be a bad example), you take part in or percieve the whole artwork or whatever in some way and you take part in that stream (or lack) of emotions and it's all very cheesy, but you take a part of it with you. And then, maybe you decide to buy it.
And the artwork is freely available to the public, well, sometimes with entrance fees.
The entrance fee can be seen as the money you pay for the internet connection, and all the downloadable mp3s are paintings, and then you give them a good look, and then maybe you decide to buy the ones you like.
Does that make any sense at all? Haha.
All you are taking away from the gallery is a memory - the same memory you would take away from hearing a song on the radio, or listening to an album at a friends house.
Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:


With music, I don't think listening through the album once at the music store or whatever always gives you enough of an impression of the album to decide if you really like it or not. And the library collection is nothing to speak of (where I live, anyway). Would like to hear more examples of try-before-you-buy-thingsSmile
Most obvious places to look for (try before you buy) streamed content is MySpace, LastFM and Spotify - or go to the band's websites and see where their streamed music is available.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:43
Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:

I only listen to vinyl nowadays, though I have a big download mp3 collection. Since I started playing vinyl I bigan to dispise the sound of digital music. There's just nothing in it for me.

One of the things I like about vinyl is that I mostly by second hand versions of records and therefore could see it as recycling! There's no production needed for my musical collecton's expension .

Downloading music is damaging the way people listen to music in my oppinion. On a vinyl record I never skip songs (it isn't easy) and I tend to listen to the whole record. The complete experience of an album is very important, missing out on one song can destroy that experience.


Nowadays I listen to music almost exclusively at the computer, through Winamp. Yet I also listen to whole albums most of the time. Listening to tracks instead of albums isn't something that was introduced with downloads ... back in the 1990s I did it all the time, that's what cassette recorders were made for!

Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:



My last point. Digital art on your computer screen isn't art. It might sound a bit extreme... but I wouldn't make love to a photo of my girlfriend either, I want the real deal. There's enough fakeness in our pleasure culture, let rock music please stay real.


We discussed this above ... the pictures on the album sleeves are also merely reproductions of the originals ... fakes, if you want. I don't ... to me the medium is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the picture is printed on paper or displayed on a computer screen, the real art is the painting itself. It's the same with music ... you can enjoy the art by listening to a mp3 file as much as by listening to a vinyl disc ... as long as you manage to realize that the content is more important than the medium.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - October 01 2009 at 12:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:51
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ but maybe, in time, the exception can become the rule. And even if not, haven't people who take music seriously always been an exception?

BTW: It's not like people who collect CDs or records aren't susceptible to bragging ... and over the years I've seen several posts where people with really big collections mentioned that there were many albums in their collections that they haven't listened to yet.
 
That's true. But then again, when you brag about a collection of records you even have something physical to brag about..LOL In the other case, you have to say "excuse me while I turn on my computer where I store pretty much all that's important in my life: memories, photographs, documents, and now even music". And as you mentioned Mike, when you compared a reproduction of a painting to a jpeg, now even pictures!
 
Really, the dependency on one single device to manage everything scares me. We'll depend for everything on an computer.
 
 


1. This is obviously a "half full / half empty" situation ... you can see it either way.
2. An advantage of the digital solution is that you can make backups. Not necessarily hard disks (they break easily) but memory cards or USB sticks. You can also encrypt them and carry them with you (I have one attached to my key ring) ... that way even if my apartment is pulverized, I still have my music. BTW: I already posted about the destruction of my vinyl collection by a leaking water pipe ... so much for scary dependencies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:56
Many of you bring up a lot of points, and for some genres I agree that bootlegging and downloading hurts ( Think Jazz or Classical, as they aren't the most popular of genres ). I still think that overrall illegal downloading benefits music. Let me make an example. 

You have this kid, lets name him Bob. Bob is say 15 or 16, and listens to all the mainstream junk. He buys all his favorite bands CDsOne day Bob hears Tool on the radio, and he instantly becomes infatuated with the band. A couple weeks after buying 10,000 Days Bob's ears are worn out. He yearns for something more, but with a limited selection of only four Tool albums, he doesn't have many options. So, Bob hops on his computer and begins his search for similar artists. It was at this point that . He hears of a program on the internet called "Limewire" and starts to illegally download music in the hope of finding something to satisfy his musical tastes. Over the next couple of months he begins to experiment, discovering The Mars Volta, King Crimson and even Devin Townsend. 

After a year or so Bob discovers torrents and rapidshare / mediafire, and his true ascendancy into musical enlightenment begins. He begins to download artists which at one point he never knew existed, obscure bands unknown to the rest of society. His tastes have developed into something he never could have foreseen as a young teen, he's come to enjoy the finer things in music, from ambient to shoegaze or even black metal.  But one thing doesn't change, he still buys his favorite albums. He's still able to appreciate the music which he holds so dear to him, except that he's buying from genres that are obscenely obscure. He's able to respect the musicians which still bring him joy, even if he happened to disregard some of them. 

The point is that Bob would never have discovered those bands if it weren't for illegal downloading, he never would have bought that Porcupine Tree album if he hadn't bootlegged the other one first. He utilized bootlegging as a portal into a new realm of music. He may have downloaded some things which he wasn't supposed to, but in the end he still purchased his favorite music, which in the end evolved from terrible garbage like Disturbed to talented artists Absu or Intronaut. Only through the use of bootlegging can someone discover and love these bands. It helps educate people about those bands we never knew existed. It helps dispose of musical ignorance, and develops musical taste. People will always buy music, illegal downloading just allows people to buy music that they were once ignorant of.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:03
^ nice story, but today you can easily sample music legally ... you don't have to have unlimited access to full albums in order to find new music. I can't understand people who claim that they need to listen several times to an album before being able to decide whether to buy it or not. Hello? If the album is good enough to get you to listen to it several times, you should be decent enough to pay for it.

When I want to check out an album, I usually go to a download store that has it and listen to the 30 sec samples. At Amazon MP3 you can listen to all of them consecutively, which in essence gives you a quick overview over the whole album. If I like what I hear, I buy/download the album or put it on my watchlist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:04
Originally posted by Qboyy007 Qboyy007 wrote:

Many of you bring up a lot of points, and for some genres I agree that bootlegging and downloading hurts ( Think Jazz or Classical, as they aren't the most popular of genres ). I still think that overrall illegal downloading benefits music. Let me make an example. 

You have this kid, lets name him Bob. Bob is say 15 or 16, and listens to all the mainstream junk. He buys all his favorite bands CDsOne day Bob hears Tool on the radio, and he instantly becomes infatuated with the band. A couple weeks after buying 10,000 Days Bob's ears are worn out. He yearns for something more, but with a limited selection of only four Tool albums, he doesn't have many options. So, Bob hops on his computer and begins his search for similar artists. It was at this point that . He hears of a program on the internet called "Limewire" and starts to illegally download music in the hope of finding something to satisfy his musical tastes. Over the next couple of months he begins to experiment, discovering The Mars Volta, King Crimson and even Devin Townsend. 

After a year or so Bob discovers torrents and rapidshare / mediafire, and his true ascendancy into musical enlightenment begins. He begins to download artists which at one point he never knew existed, obscure bands unknown to the rest of society. His tastes have developed into something he never could have foreseen as a young teen, he's come to enjoy the finer things in music, from ambient to shoegaze or even black metal.  But one thing doesn't change, he still buys his favorite albums. He's still able to appreciate the music which he holds so dear to him, except that he's buying from genres that are obscenely obscure. He's able to respect the musicians which still bring him joy, even if he happened to disregard some of them. 

The point is that Bob would never have discovered those bands if it weren't for illegal downloading, he never would have bought that Porcupine Tree album if he hadn't bootlegged the other one first. He utilized bootlegging as a portal into a new realm of music. He may have downloaded some things which he wasn't supposed to, but in the end he still purchased his favorite music, which in the end evolved from terrible garbage like Disturbed to talented artists Absu or Intronaut. Only through the use of bootlegging can someone discover and love these bands. It helps educate people about those bands we never knew existed. It helps dispose of musical ignorance, and develops musical taste. People will always buy music, illegal downloading just allows people to buy music that they were once ignorant of.

You might be right, but most kids that only listen mainstream don't buy CD's... In fact, only very few do. Many people also don't feel the need to spend money on an album, if they can also download it, whether it's for not caring about the artwork, or not having much money to spend. 

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