Complex time signatures? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Posted: November 18 2005 at 23:19

theres little doubt in my mind that comlex time signatures play a part in prog but a strong melody is just as important

Odd24

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 02:39

Ipacial Section wrote:

*Still not impressed*

My lips are sealed....

goose

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 07:16

ElwoodHerring wrote:

Music would be extremely boring if all of it was in 4/4

Maybe for you, but I could find plenty of interest!

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:04

The interesting thing about complex time signatures is the various ways they can be divided up. Listen to Phil Collins' drumming in "Apocalypse in 9/8" for example (Supper's Ready). He divides the 9 beats up into a 4, a 3 and a 2. (1, 2, 3 AND 1, 2 AND 1 AND...) while Peter Gabriel is singing "SIX SIX SIX is no longer alone...". Clever stuff! Similarly in the middle section of "Robbery, Assault & Battery" - it took me a long time to work out what was going on initially. Genesis were probably the best band for weird time sigs back in the 70's - Dance on a Volcano is another good one. Time signatures are as much part of music composition as different tempi, modes, chord sequences, instrumentation and the like. Why stick to 4/4? That's like painting with one colour all the time.

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Ipacial Section View Drop Down

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:20

I'm not saying we should stick to 4/4.

I don't, so it would be hypocritical if i told everyone else to.

Complex time signatures have their place in music.

It's just when people get all chocked up about it, & start saying how great bands like TMV are, just because they use complex time signatures. That's what bothers me.

And if sticking to 4/4 really is like painting with just one colour. Then getting all excited about a band using 29/16 is abit like getting excited because a painting has more than 10 colours in it.

Edited by Ipacial Section

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:24

^ I take it you mean TMV.

IMO they are overdoing it a little ... 29/16, what's next? 53/32, 93/64 or 211/128?

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Ipacial Section View Drop Down

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:28

427/256 perhaps

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:34

No seriously, 29/16 is not really that odd. It's 16/16 + 13/16. But the more complex the signature the harde it gets for the artist to explain the necessity of the complexity.

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Ipacial Section View Drop Down

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:37

In the end, it just gets pointless. Cheap tricks to make music sound more complicated are one thing. But when music really does start to get over-complex, it becomes a matter of showing off rather than trying to make good music.

The music gets so over-complicated that it's no longer enjoyable. It's just a mess.

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:40

^ that's subjective. I really enjoy Planet X - MoonBabies, and they get VERY complex at times. It really makes sense and doesn't seem forced. And there are other bands that use relatively simple sigs like 7/4 or 5/4 and it feels unnatural and forced ... it really depends.

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monkfish

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:40

Every song has a natural time, length and key. To just play "Math Rock" or odd bar measures for the sake of it is just like playing a certain chord because the fingering is awkward.

Some songs to check out for perfect use of odd meters. (When I say "Odd", I mean anything other than 4/4 or 3/4)

"Seven Days" - Sting

"Mission Impossible" - Theme Tune

"Golden Brown" - The Stranglers

"Sky Blue" - Peter Gabriel

"My Wave" - Soundgarden

Even "Thriteen" By Frank Zappa has a natural pulse.

Its music not maths.

Edited by monkfish

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:46

Im personally indifferent on the subject I enjoy to hear complex time signitures but sometimes its refeshing to hear something in bog-standard 4/4 time.

I play guitar and am in a prog rock band myself but when im just playing stuff for fun sometimes the stuff with a tricky time signiture can be easier to play than something in 4/4 time but this can also be the reverse. My band we dont go out of the way to use complex time signitures if we feel the song would sound better we put it in if not we will use 4/4 but then there is that part of your brain which is alittle mad and enjoys playing in a complex signiture. lol

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Ipacial Section View Drop Down

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:54

Autechre use complex time signatures aswell. They arn't Prog though. So no-one here will know them. They make glitch music, & some it sounds as though there is no time signature. Yet, unlike alot of Prog bands that use these methods, it actually works.

Check out their new album Untilted (2005)

Edited by Ipacial Section

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Badabec

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 09:37

VanBuren wrote:

it just sounds cool, don't look too mcuh into it

I agree!

goose

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 15:44

Ipacial Section wrote:

They arn't Prog though. So no-one here will know them.

Ty1020

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 15:59

I don't understand why you're "not impressed." It's not like you're supposed to be impressed by them; they're time signatures

. The use of odd time signatures just helps to keep music from becoming too monotonous since the whole world seems to be stuck in 4/4.

It's not like the use of these odd time signatures is exclusive to prog, and prog artists certainly weren't the first (or only) ones to use them. I'm in a concert band and a jazz band and the vast majority of the music we play is not in 4/4; most pieces feature multiple time signatures and switch back and forth throughout the song.

So, yeah, your poll is kind of silly. It's like saying "Dynamics: are we impressed?" or "Tempo: is it really all that great?" The use of other time signatures is just a part of music.

Edited by Ty1020

Ipacial Section View Drop Down

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 16:01

You are just one of the many people in this thread who has missed the point. But thanks for joining in the discussion anyway. Just remember to read what i write properly next time.

I shall now quote myself....

I'm not saying we should stick to 4/4.

I don't, so it would be hypocritical if i told everyone else to.

Complex time signatures have their place in music.

It's just when people get all chocked up about it, & start saying how great bands like TMV are, just because they use complex time signatures. That's what bothers me.

And if sticking to 4/4 really is like painting with just one colour. Then getting all excited about a band using 29/16 is abit like getting excited because a painting has more than 10 colours in it.

Edited by Ipacial Section

www.soundclick.com/ipacialsection

Ty1020

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 16:07

Sorry, I'll admit that I didn't read your post in its entirety

. It looks like we basically agree, then

. I don't think it's necessarily the fact that bands use odd time signatures that impresses people though, it's how they use them. I'm not personally "impressed" by the use of odd time signatures, simply because, as I said, they're a fundamental staple of music, but there are lots of bands who use them really well and I'm impressed by that (that's not just limited to time signatures, though - I'm just impressed by bands who make good music).

FragileDT

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 16:16

Ipacial Section wrote:

I'm not saying we should stick to 4/4.

I don't, so it would be hypocritical if i told everyone else to.

Complex time signatures have their place in music.

It's just when people get all chocked up about it, & start saying how
great bands like TMV are, just because they use complex time signatures.
That's what bothers me.

And if sticking to 4/4 really is like painting with just one colour. Then
getting all excited about a band using 29/16 is abit like getting excited
because a painting has more than 10 colours in it.

The Mars Volta aren't great because they use different time signatures
(because all in all, they don't use a third of the sig's that Dream Theater
uses.) They are great because their songs are well written and they
display emotions very very well.

EDIT: They also have a newer style of prog that's very interesting and
many people that listen to many different styles of music enjoy.

Edited by FragileDT

One likes to believe
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But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
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Ipacial Section View Drop Down

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Posted: November 19 2005 at 16:19

You are one of the few people who like them for that reason.

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Poll Question: Are we impressed?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	50	[71.43%]
No	4	[5.71%]
Indifferent	16	[22.86%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted