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Dr. Prog 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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 Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:31 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[QUOTE=Dr. Prog][QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M][Prog Related
Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.
Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
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1--check
2--check
3--check
hmmm. It seems to me that Collins contributions to Brand X, to various prog solo albums like Hackett's, Rutherford's, Phillips' and Gabriel's, ´
Then it could be mentioned in a review of Gabriel, Hackett's or Brand X album, but not in a page for him, because hedidn't wrote that music.
AND his huge influence musically on the sound of progressive music in the 80s with the gated reverb effect of that huge drum sound on songs like In the Air Tonight would fulfill all those criteria.
Performance or inovation in a style, don't justuify an inclusion, BTWQ: Genesis influenced Prog of the 80's, maybe Phil performances on GENESIS albums, but again, we are talking about musical solo compositions.
In the Air Tonight was a solo composition by Phil. If Genesis influenced prog of the 80s, why couldn't Phil in his solo albums? The fact of the matter is the gated reverb drum sound of that song was one of the biggest musical influences of the 80s, and that big drum sound, also found on Gabriel's Intruder, was highly influential. You can ignore it and pretend its not progressive if you want, but then you would be letting your intense anti Phil Collins bias prevail over objective analysis.
Also, a tune like The West Side is certainly on the jazz fusion side of prog as anything groups like Weather Report did. ie, he may not be prog as a solo artist, but he sure is close to Prog.
Ok, lets add Bob Geldoff and the Boomtown Rats for "I Don't like Mondays" or Meatloaf for "Bar Out of Hell", both are proggy, but one track (I don't even believe any PC track is remotely close to Prog) will neither justify an addirion.
I gave you more than one track, In the Air Tonight and West Side, and could give you more if I was actually making the case.
Ar rhe end, the Administrators, the Collabioborators and the Members have spoken, the case was closed a long time ago.
So what. I wasn't around then. We can't give our opinions on who is prog related and who is not simply because you closed off the discussion (and dislike Phil Collins)? This is a discussion forum for people to give their opinions. Are you saying once a person is voted no for prog related, there can be no more discussion on the subject? If so, why not chide and berate the OP? I didn't start this thread, I am simply giving my opinion on the subject brought up by another poster.
You certainly are very touchy and almost anal about this subject. Maybe your intense dislike of Phil Collins should have disqualified you from objectively weighing in on his placement. It seems to me that maybe you could have benefitted from a few more people that knew his music before you closed the door.
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:35 |
dagrush wrote:
Uh, I'd have to disagree that some of those are "top shelf". The pile of crap that is "Follow you, follow me", the pile of crap that is "Your own special way", the... well, you get where I'm going.
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LMAO. Those "pile of crap" songs are Mike Rutherford songs.
Is there anyone around here who actually knows anything about Phil Collins, or does everyone just pull crap out of their arse when they speak?
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:39 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry, but since ATTW3 it was Genesis no more, it was anything.
And Your Own Special Way sucks IMO.
Iván |
another clueless one. Your Own Special Way was a Mike Rutherford song.
I hearby propose that anyone who sat on any committee who voted Phil Collins NO for prog related because they thought he wrote Your Own Special Way be immediately removed from any more PA committees and also that they have their Prog Credentials Membership Card permanently removed for lack of knowledge. 
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:41 |
Zoso wrote:
I agree, those songs are great, minus Your Own Special Way, which makes me want to jump off a cliff.
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Sheeesh. Sad. really sad.  
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:42 |
its beginning to look like Phil Collins is being kept out of prog related because of one Mike Rutherford song.  
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:43 |
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it's easy to construct a straw man out of five posts in a row. ;P
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:48 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: Mama IMO is anything but Prog, it's repetitive, boring and one of his worst performances, he shouts out of tomne and that laugh at thend is pretty repulsive.
Iván |
Omigod. Where does it all end?
Mama is a Genesis song. One of the great Genesis songs too btw. If you had seen this intense live performance on the last tour, where Phil sings this incredibly vocally demanding song, and then follows it with the soft and fluid ballad of Ripples, you would see exactly how great a vocalist he really is. But since you are so close minded, that would never happen.
And by the way, if Phil is to be judged for his SOLO output, what does it matter what you think of MAMA, which is a Genesis tune?
This truly is amazing. 
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:07 |
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Come on, let's leave it here. This discussion will never end, as both sides have much as right as wrong. I do agree with many much stuff you said Dr Prog but also with some of the other. I won't apport discussion, since I don't want anymore pending aproval posts of mine.
Peace!.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:16 |
Masque wrote:
Heres a list of top shelf songs Genesis did without Peter gabriel
Dance on a Volcano
Blood On The Roof Tops
Entangled
Follow You Follow Me
Mad Man Moon
One For The Vine
Ripples
Squonk
Many Too Many
Snowbound
Your Own Special Way
Undertow
Afterglow
Fading Lights
Not only was Phil Collins a great drummer (as also proven with his work with Brand X) Phil proved he could take over on vocals for Genesis (can you imagine how big the shoes were that Gabriel wore that Phil would try and fill ?) Phil Collins deserves to be knighted for even trying 
So for all you people who don`t like Phil Collins how about showing some respect, after all for the Next three CD`s after Peter Gabriel left , Phil and company continued to deliver quality music .
I probably left some songs out but this list was done from my memory.  |
I think the list is quite messy, but I truly agree he's massive, but himself as prog legend?? well maybe...
Here's my list:
-Eleventh Earl of Mar (one of the greatest with him)
-One for the Vine
-In that Quite Earth
-Wot Gorilla?
-Blood on the Rooftops
-Dance on a Volcano
-Ripples
-Los Endos
-Squonk
-Burning Rope
-The Lady Lies
-Duke's Suite
-Mama
-Abacab
-Fading Lights
-Dreaming while you sleep
-Driving the Last Pike
Of course this is IMO. Also with him(post-Gabriel) they released two classic albums, that one of them is a fave : Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering.
Also IMO ATTWT and Duke are good 3.5 star albums. Too underrated. Have in mind I have an open mind on pop, so I do not have serious problems with songs like Turn it on Again, Misunderstanding, That's All, Your Own Special Way, Follow you Follow Me, etc. Although I do have problems with an entire album of a prog band being like this, that, that is a different story...
So arguably Phil is a prog Legend, IMHO, well he must be if he isn't, and he can also be(is) by as many saying he ruined the band, I'm not on against or for that...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:38 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry, but since ATTW3 it was Genesis no more, it was anything.
And Your Own Special Way sucks IMO.
Iván |
another clueless one. Your Own Special Way was a Mike Rutherford song.
I hearby propose that anyone who sat on any committee who voted Phil Collins NO for prog related because they thought he wrote Your Own Special Way be immediately removed from any more PA committees and also that they have their Prog Credentials Membership Card permanently removed for lack of knowledge. |
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way, nobody is clueless here, neitrher I said it was written by anyboduy else, please read before changing my words.
I DARE YOU TO QUOTE ME
I don't need any credential BTW.
Iván
BTW: I won't reply your first post in this because it's offensive and using language not appropriate for this site.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 12 2008 at 20:44
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:48 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way, |
Really? then why would there be at least 4 posts all stating how terrible this song is in a thread about Phil Collins?
I rest my case.  |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:59 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way, |
Really? then why would there be at least 4 posts all stating how terrible this song is in a thread about Phil Collins?
I rest my case. |
QUOTE ME IF YOU CAN.
Iván
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 21:45 |
Say, anyone have a pic from South Park of Phil Collins hill to link to? Edit: There you are, positive proof: 
Edited by Slartibartfast - May 12 2008 at 21:59
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 21:48 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dr. Prog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way, |
Really? then why would there be at least 4 posts all stating how terrible this song is in a thread about Phil Collins?
I rest my case. |
QUOTE ME IF YOU CAN.
Iván |
uhh, I think I already did, several times.
You can calm down and stop shouting now........
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Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 21:49 |
As much as I love Phil as a drummer and respect how he filled Peter's shoes, I also loathe his solo work. The thing is, is that he was a huge success in all three areas. Now if we're strictly talking prog then we have to dismiss his solo career from the discussion.
Does Phil deserve to be considered a Prog legend for his work as a drummer,front man and songwriter for a Prog band? Most definitely.
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If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 00:50 |
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Listening to each other rather than reiterating our own points, that's the key to progress.
Yes, the case is well and truly closed on putting Phil Collns in a prog category as a solo artist, and so it should be. Little disagreement there.
The point is, though, we are NOT talking about his solo works. Clearly, since the original statement was: 'Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend', we are only talking about his prog work with GENESIS, BRAND X and others. Therefore, this is the correct place for a discussion as to whether PC is a prog legend - whatever else he may have become is NOT, I thought, what this thread is about.
That said, I continue to be puzzled by comments that PC's solo work is similar to, or virtually indistinguishable from, latter-day GENESIS. Now by some people's definition they both might be pop, but PC's work was at least partly white soul, particularly his remakes such as 'You Can't Hurry Love'. GENESIS did nothing like that: the nearest they came was 'No Reply At All'. If you want to experience the difference between PC and GENESIS in 1980, do this simple exercise: play 'Behind the LInes' from 'Duke', and then play 'Behind the Lines' from 'Face Value'. See the difference?
Edited by russellk - May 13 2008 at 01:50
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
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Points: 7028
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 05:12 |
There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy. Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
Hold on My Heart
Tell me why
Never a time
Since I lost you
In too deep
Throwing it all away
Taking it all too hard
Mama
No reply at all
and then these are a few PC solo songs that could have found their way onto latter day Genesis albums.........
Wake up call
In the air tonight
The roof is leaking
Tomorrow never knows ( John Lennon wrote it)
Droned
I don't care anymore
Do you know, do you care?
Take me home
Do you remember?
Colours
I wish it would rain down
We wait and we wonder
It's in your eyes
Again not a bad thing!!
peace  |
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 13:28 |
Chris Stacey wrote:
There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy. Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
Hold on My Heart
Tell me why
Never a time
Since I lost you
In too deep
Throwing it all away
Taking it all too hard
Mama
No reply at all
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Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Throwing it All Away and Taking it All Too Hard are both Rutherford songs. Hold on My Heart and Since I Lost You are Banks songs, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is too. Mama is clearly the best song on the list, and that is Phil's. Yet another example of the kind of misperception and way over the top invectives and dislike of Phil Collins around here for all the wrong reasons(in other posts, not this one). Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 13 2008 at 14:55
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 13:39 |
Glad I'm not a member of a Genesis Forum..... 
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:00 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend
