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rushfan4 
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 Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:13 |
I believe that we are pretty much in agreement, so I won't press my luck. However, Phil Collins' solo albums sound very similar musically to the latter day Genesis albums, which I think is one of the reasons that Phil Collins gets so much of the blame for Genesis' latter day sound. He went on to have great commercial success with his solo albums. During this period of time, the Genesis albums that were released were in someways indistinguishable from the Phil Collins' releases. Probably moreso due to Phil Collins' vocal delivery than from a musical delivery, but the similarity is there. Phil had followed a successful formula with his solo albums, and the members from Genesis did quite well for themselves following that formula. Although, I am too lazy to look and see which came first, the first commercially successful Phil Collins album or the first commercially successful Genesis album, but I think that it was Phil Collins. Is Phil Collins' solo prog? Unlike Ivan I say there are some "prog notes". but no, Phil Collins' solo is not a prog artist. But he does mix jazz with R&B and rock. He does add horns to the drum-guitar-bass rock formula. OK. So I did press my luck, but... 
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Logan
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:14 |
 Ghost Rider wrote:
Though prog-related is not prog, it should be related musically, not just because someone was in a band....
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I was just logging in to say that. I want to say, though, that many in Prog Related released Prog material. Sometimes it's a question of how much, and how much is perceived to be Prog (and people differ on that, what is Prog to me may not be Prog to others). Others released music that shares many of the same attributes as Prog, without being truly Prog. It requires quantitative and qualitative (as in prog elements) decisions, and a certain (or should that be uncertain?) amount of subjectivity comes in to play. I'm more of an inclusionist than many. For instance, Elton John has been nixed for Prog Related, yet if it were up to me, I would include him. I consider the Alan Parsons Project to be Prog enough for a Prog category. We'll never get in all of the prog artists in, cause there are always more (and a great many older ones that are extremely obscure), and the boundaries of what is considered prog are expanding. I don't hear enough Prog, or even proggy material, for Phil Collins to be included here. If someone wants to make an argument for his inclusion, it has to be on his solo music itself. Back on topic: I'm going to be PC and say PC made good music, but I don't think his solo career warrants inclusion in the archives (but then I don't know all of his music). EDIT: And I don't think of latter day Genesis as a Prog band, either. They're in for earlier material, so it doesn't matter to me if Phil Collins has a similar sound to the non-prog (or semi-prog) Genesis era unless Phil Collins is sufficiently semi-prog as a solo artist. Incidentally, I'm no expert on PC's music.
Edited by Logan - May 12 2008 at 14:22
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:21 |
imo, Prog Related should be a category for artists who, while not truly prog themselves (PCs solo output) are in fact related to prog via their contributions to progressive music, which in PCs case is a nobrainer with Genesis, and even what he did with Brand X in and of itself. I would also note that he contributed to a number of other people's prog albums as a drummer and singer (ie, Hackett's Voyage of the Acolyte, Anthony Phillips' Geese and the Ghost, Gabriel's solo albums, including a definitive drum track on Intruder), so if those are prog albums, why wouldn't he be at least related to prog for that work? If the idea is to alert readers to artists who are related to prog, but not prog themselves, then Collins should be included. There seems to be two views on what the purpose of the prog related category is, and some people treat it as a dumping ground for people that are somewhat proggy, but not proggy enough (David Gilmour).
On the other hand, when I read comments Phil makes like "I am not a big fan of a lot of stuff we did in the past" (referring to the Gabriel era), I want to wring Phil's neck.
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Logan
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:26 |
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But there are so many non-prog solo artists that worked with prog bands, for me it would be a bit of a waste of energy and bandwidth. I much prefer Prog Related to mean music that has a relation to prog and music that is likely to appeal to those into Prog generally.
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rushfan4
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:29 |
I don't mean to cause trouble here, although I know that the blue ink is coming. I have been bouncing around the forums long enough to know various folks' feelings on the matter. All that I will say is that there are varying degrees of belief in how much progressive rock is included in latter day Genesis. There are some that say that they are just pop with no prog and there are some that say that they are pop with progressive tendencies. For those that say pop with progressive tendencies, Phil Collins' solo might also fit into this category. For those that say latter day Genesis is pop with no prog, then Phil Collins' solo probably also fits into this category. Again subjective opinions.
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Raff
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:32 |
Logan wrote:
But there are so many non-prog solo artists that worked with prog bands, for me it would be a bit of a waste of energy and bandwidth. I much prefer Prog Related to mean music that has a relation to prog and music that is likely to appeal to those into Prog generally.
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Seconded  . As a side note, if you want to see where the notion of 'prog-related' (meaning in this case associated with a prog band) can take, look at the bands and artists included in the Prog-Related section at ProgGnosis (otherwise an excellent resource, with a HUGE database of artists). I am sure it will be a very enlightening experience for everyone.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:34 |
rushfan4 wrote:
During this period of time, the Genesis albums that were released were in someways indistinguishable from the Phil Collins' releases. Probably moreso due to Phil Collins' vocal delivery than from a musical delivery, but the similarity is there. Phil had followed a successful formula with his solo albums, and the members from Genesis did quite well for themselves following that formula. Although, I am too lazy to look and see which came first, the first commercially successful Phil Collins album or the first commercially successful Genesis album, but I think that it was Phil Collins. Is Phil Collins' solo prog? Unlike Ivan I say there are some "prog notes". but no, Phil Collins' solo is not a prog artist. But he does mix jazz with R&B and rock. He does add horns to the drum-guitar-bass rock formula. OK. So I did press my luck, but... |
I think that is a vast overstatement. Obviously, since the vocalist is the same, the albums of a solo artist are always going to sound similar, but if you listen to ALL of Abacab, Genesis, IT and WCD, there are many many songs which would NEVER be on a Phil Collins solo album. This is the kind of generalization which grates on me, because it really taints what Genesis was in my opinion. Phil Collins would never do songs such as Me and Sarah Jane, Abacab, Home by the Sea, Silver Rainbow, Land of Confusion, Domino, The Brazilian, Fading Lights, Dreaming While You Sleep, Driving the Last Spike, Living Forever to name a few, on his solo albums. Genesis still did progressive songs all the way to the end, and to say those albums are indistinguishable is just too much.
and by the way, Genesis first big commercial success was Trick of the Tail way back in 1976, and their first hit was Follow You Follow Me in 1978. Phil's first solo album wasn't until 1981, after the Duke album.
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micky
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:37 |
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oh hell yeah...
Steve Winwood anyone... far more PR in his solo material... and his prog connections are beyond reproach
the point.. . PC is a Pandora's Box.. open it at your peril
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:41 |
Logan wrote:
EDIT: And I don't think of latter day Genesis as a Prog band, either. They're in for earlier material, so it doesn't matter to me if Phil Collins has a similar sound to the non-prog (or semi-prog) Genesis era unless Phil Collins is sufficiently semi-prog as a solo artist.
Incidentally, I'm no expert on PC's music.
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Well again, then what do you call the Duke suite (with Duchess, Duke's Travels etc)? Heathaze? Cul De Sac? Abacab? DodoLurker? Me and Sarah Jane? Mama? Home by the Sea? Silver Rainbow? Domino? The Brazilian? Fading Lights? Dreaming While You Sleep? Driving the Last Spike? Virtually all of Calling All Stations?
Genesis had plenty of prog output well into 1998. In fact, I could make a case that they were the ONLY big prog band from the 70s that still was playing progressive music well into the 80s except for Floyd and Crimson. And as a live band they certainly were a progressive band all the way through. When you play a lot of progressive rock live, it seems kind of silly to not call them a progressive rock band. You just don't STOP doing what you have always done, or FORGET how to play In the Cage or Ripples or Firth of Fifth.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:42 |
micky wrote:
oh hell yeah...
Steve Winwood anyone... far more PR in his solo material... and his prog connections are beyond reproach
the point.. . PC is a Pandora's Box.. open it at your peril
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Winwood is not in prog related??? You have to be kidding. That is a travesty. His work on Stomu Yamashta's Go Sessions ALONE should put him there.
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micky
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:47 |
oh course he is not.. if he was... all those who are not familar with his work... would be calling for Phil Colins to be included.  Raff and I are HUGE fans of his.. and have never thought ONCE about including him here.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:48 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I don't mean to cause trouble here, although I know that the blue ink is coming. I have been bouncing around the forums long enough to know various folks' feelings on the matter. All that I will say is that there are varying degrees of belief in how much progressive rock is included in latter day Genesis. There are some that say that they are just pop with no prog and there are some that say that they are pop with progressive tendencies. For those that say pop with progressive tendencies, Phil Collins' solo might also fit into this category. For those that say latter day Genesis is pop with no prog, then Phil Collins' solo probably also fits into this category. Again subjective opinions.
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and there are some that say progressive with some pop songs thrown in, or progressive pop. The pop songs just happened to be more successful. I was at 4 Genesis concerts last fall, and there were some younger concert goers who had confused looks on their faces when Genesis launched into 10+ minute progressive songs from the 80s such as Home by the Sea and Domino.
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rushfan4
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:50 |
No offense meant with that comment. As a fan of latter day Genesis and Phil Collins there are at times where I hear a song from one or the other on the radio in which I don't remember whether it was performed by Genesis or by Phil Collins. Land of Confusion being one of the examples.
At least to me, I feel a song like In the Air Tonight would have fit just as easily on a Genesis album. The song and music have a progressive feel to me. And the story has a kind of VDGG darkness to it.
Thanks for the clarification on the dates.  That makes sense. I was kind of figuring on Abacab as the beginning of their commercial success. I think that Phil took the success of songs like Follow You Follow Me and built his solo career around songs in a similar vein. I also think that it was Phil's solo career success that led to the albums after Duke becoming more commercially accessible and commercially successful. Keep in mind, I like both, so I am not saying this as a bad thing.
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Logan
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:53 |
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I realise that Genesis released plenty of Prog material in the 80's up (and even though I don't care for it, I still think of Duke as a mostly prog album). But I don't think of Genesis primarily as a Prog band post Duke, at least. That's why I mentioned semi-prog. I was just thinking that if Phil Collins is not influenced by Genesis prog-side (even latter day) then that makes him less worthwhile for inclusion. It's rather tangential to some former discussion.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:55 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Last November, Easy Livin', an Admin, suggested that artists who were members of prog bands merited inclusion in Prog Related (discussion was regarding solo album from Laura Meade (?) from Izz). Therefore I started the below thread suggesting inclusion of Phil Collins in PA as prog-related. Most responses were similar to what is being said here, and I commend Ivan for his rabid consistency, which I know that he prides himself in. Anyhow, in case there is any interest see the below link for the responses to including PC in PA.
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Rushfan: I know the Prog Related definition perfectlt because I wrote it (After being approved by the Collaborators abnd the Administration Team), and there's a parragraph that clearly state Phil Collins is not a case:
Prog Related
Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.
Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist
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Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.
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iT'S CLEAR ENOUGH, THE PERFORMANCE OF AN INSTRUMENT INA PROG BAND, DOESN'T JUSTIFY AN INCLUSION.
He wouyld had required to release a Prog or Prog Related album as a solo artist and he only did POP.
Now this issue has been debated "ad nauseam" and the almost unanimous decision has been no, so we can't go against our own internal rules.
Now, pelase don't come with the argument that X band is here, because probably that band was a mistake, but making a mistake doesn't justify a second mistake.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 12 2008 at 15:01
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rushfan4
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:59 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
and there are some that say progressive with some pop songs thrown in, or progressive pop. The pop songs just happened to be more successful. I was at 4 Genesis concerts last fall, and there were some younger concert goers who had confused looks on their faces when Genesis launched into 10+ minute progressive songs from the 80s such as Home by the Sea and Domino. |
Yes, I am in agreement with that degree.
Last summer's tour was the first time that I was lucky enough to see them live. Not too much before that, I saw Phil Collins for the first time on his "1st Retirement" tour. Kind of tongue in cheek humor from PC. During the Genesis show, the fans definitely headed for the restrooms and the concessions stands during In The Cage.
During Phil's solo show, him and Chester Thompson opened with a 10 minute drum duet, and of course there were fans in the crowd who didn't even know that Phil was a drummer.
Both were excellent shows however.
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rushfan4
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:05 |
Ivan, Where's my blue ink? As you said, this has been discussed ad nauseum. My initial point of that post was to provide a link to that previous discussion in relation to the prior posts in this thread, not to start a new discussion. However, when a new discussion was started, I couldn't help myself but to join in.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:20 |
rushfan4 wrote:
No offense meant with that comment. As a fan of latter day Genesis and Phil Collins there are at times where I hear a song from one or the other on the radio in which I don't remember whether it was performed by Genesis or by Phil Collins. Land of Confusion being one of the examples.
At least to me, I feel a song like In the Air Tonight would have fit just as easily on a Genesis album. The song and music have a progressive feel to me. And the story has a kind of VDGG darkness to it.
Thanks for the clarification on the dates. That makes sense. I was kind of figuring on Abacab as the beginning of their commercial success. I think that Phil took the success of songs like Follow You Follow Me and built his solo career around songs in a similar vein. I also think that it was Phil's solo career success that led to the albums after Duke becoming more commercially accessible and commercially successful. Keep in mind, I like both, so I am not saying this as a bad thing. |
In the Air Tonight, a very progressive song in my opinion-----the gated reverb effect on the drums was unheard of before then----was offered to Banks and Rutherford for Abacab, and lo and behold they rejected it for inclusion. I agree, it should have been a Genesis song, and who knows what effect that would have had on Phil's solo career. That song alone got him the huge commercial success that later followed. Had that been a Genesis song, he may not have had the same solo success. I think that song alone is progressive enough to be considered prog related----again, for 1980/81, that kind of huge minimalist drum sound, first used by Phil on Intruder--another prog song, was hugely influential on the sound of music in the 80s as a whole.
I also think I Don't Care Anymore, from the second Phil album, would have been a good Genesis tune, and again is based on that huge drum sound which so influenced music in the 80s. FYFM was actually a Rutherford tune, but was the start of Genesis being noticed more on the radio. There is no doubt that Collins' solo success influenced and carried over to Genesis in the 80s as he wrote more and had more input on the albums, but those albums were still filled with progressive music.
I do remember going to several Genesis concerts in the 80s and being irritated when I heard people (usually girls) say things like "I hope Phil plays In the Air Tonight or Sussudio". I would have to gently remind them that they wouldn't, as this was a Genesis concert.
Re your experience on the reunion tour that people got up during In The Cage, that suprises me. At each of the concerts I was at, by far the biggest "bathroom" song was Hold on My Heart, after In the Cage/Afterglow. In fact, on the Genesis forums, people actually called that song the "bathroom break song".
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:32 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[Prog Related
Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.
Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
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1--check
2--check
3--check
hmmm. It seems to me that Collins contributions to Brand X, to various prog solo albums like Hackett's, Rutherford's, Phillips' and Gabriel's, AND his huge influence musically on the sound of progressive music in the 80s with the gated reverb effect of that huge drum sound on songs like In the Air Tonight would fulfill all those criteria. Also, a tune like The West Side is certainly on the jazz fusion side of prog as anything groups like Weather Report did. ie, he may not be prog as a solo artist, but he sure is close to Prog.
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 12 2008 at 15:37
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:56 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[Prog Related
Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.
Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
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1--check
2--check
3--check
hmmm. It seems to me that Collins contributions to Brand X, to various prog solo albums like Hackett's, Rutherford's, Phillips' and Gabriel's, ´
Then it could be mentioned in a review of Gabriel, Hackett's or Brand X album, but not in a page for him, because hedidn't wrote that music.
AND his huge influence musically on the sound of progressive music in the 80s with the gated reverb effect of that huge drum sound on songs like In the Air Tonight would fulfill all those criteria.
Performance or inovation in a style, don't justuify an inclusion, BTWQ: Genesis influenced Prog of the 80's, maybe Phil performances on GENESIS albums, but again, we are talking about musical solo compositions.
Also, a tune like The West Side is certainly on the jazz fusion side of prog as anything groups like Weather Report did. ie, he may not be prog as a solo artist, but he sure is close to Prog.
Ok, lets add Bob Geldoff and the Boomtown Rats for "I Don't like Mondays" or Meatloaf for "Bar Out of Hell", both are proggy, but one track (I don't even believe any PC track is remotely close to Prog) will neither justify an addirion.
Ar rhe end, the Administrators, the Collabioborators and the Members have spoken, the case was closed a long time ago.
Iván |
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