Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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russellk

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:29

I'm intrigued by the notion that any thread about Phil Collins ought to be shifted to the general discussion thread. Imagine that Collins had died in 1978 (no obvious comments please). He would be in the PA database as the drummer and later vocalist for GENESIS and drummer for BRAND X, and as such would be discussed in the prog lounge.

The implication is that his solo 'pop' career has cancelled his prog achievements. That is somewhat odd, to say the least, and if it was applied to every progger who went pop, we'd certainly have a far smaller database!

So I'm comfortable talking about Phil Collins in the prog lounge. More, I believe he is a prog legend. After all, he fronted one of the world's best ever progressive rock acts, and is judged by many as a more than competent drummer.

muddoctor

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:39

ivan,... may be michael jackson a little bit odd.

but you can take a look at britney spear or mariah carey,..

they both very famous now, i mean TOP !!!

but i think none of them better than three guys that we've been talking about.

am i right or wrong ???

heheheheh

kenmartree View Drop Down

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:47

Steve won his status of Prog Legend with his solo albums (18 if I'm not wrong, and almost all outstanding), because what he did in Genesis was as part of a team.

Iván

[/QUOTE]

Ivan, while I agree and I note that you didn't say that Steve album's are all prog. It should be noted that Steve has released 3 (to my knowledge) purely classical albums, Bay of Kings, Momentum and Sketches of Sadie. His profincency with multiple forms of guitar playing are I think why he wins polls against the most formidable of competition. Steve is more than a prog legend, he a mucial legend.

And muddoctor, Welcome to the Forum, always happy to have another Hackett fan. If you serch under Steve you'll find my post about an interesting thing I saw at a Hackett concert. the post is titled, "Steve Hackett, Out of Character". Kenmar

Edited by kenmartree - May 12 2008 at 01:51

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:56

russellk wrote:

I'm intrigued by the notion that any thread about Phil Collins ought to be shifted to the general discussion thread. Imagine that Collins had died in 1978 (no obvious comments please). He would be in the PA database as the drummer and later vocalist for GENESIS and drummer for BRAND X, and as such would be discussed in the prog lounge.

No, unless he had released a Prog album as a soloist, of course he would had been mentioned as member of both bands, but not as a soloist, and for that reson he wouldn't have a spot here.

The implication is that his solo 'pop' career has cancelled his prog achievements. That is somewhat odd, to say the least, and if it was applied to every progger who went pop, we'd certainly have a far smaller database!

Nothing will cancel his merits as Genesis and Brand X member, but his solo career is not Prog, as simple as that, so his solo career has no relatioin with Prog Archives.

Please I will answer some questions and tell me if I'nm not right:

Who is added to the database?: Those Prog or Prog Related bands and artists
When does a band or an artist is considered Prog or Prog Related?: When them/he/she release a Prog or Prog Related artistalbum.
When did Phil Collins as a SOLO ARTIST released a Prog or Prog Related album?: NEVER

His merits as member of of Genesis and Brand X are not in debate, but his solo career is OK for POP Archives, not for gere, in other words, he alone, individually, as a soloist, has no place here, despite his great merit as member of Genesis and Brand X.

So I'm comfortable talking about Phil Collins in the prog lounge. More, I believe he is a prog legend. After all, he fronted one of the world's best ever progressive rock acts, and is judged by many as a more than competent drummer.

He is already in the archives as Genesis and Brand X member, that can't be taken from him, Genesis was Prog legend, Brand X is a Prog Band, but Phil Collins individually NOT.

If that was so, every former member of a Prog band should be included here, despite they didn't released a Prog album or even a solo album, and that's not how it works.

Is there a page for Steve Walsh, Jurgen Fritz or Anna Holmgren? No, there isn't, despite their merits as Kansas, Triumvirat or Anglagard members.

So why should Phil Collins have a different treatment?

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:06

kenmartree wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Steve won his status of Prog Legend with his solo albums (18 if I'm not wrong, and almost all outstanding), because what he did in Genesis was as part of a team.

Iván

Agree 100% , and that's why I said:

Not time GOM, merits, since his career in Genesis ended, Steve has done 18 albums, most of them Prog, and all except one outstanding,

But you are forgetting a fourth Classical album, the impecable "Midsummer's Night Dream".with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, which reached the top ten in the Classical Charts.

But perhaps one of Hackett's most memorable achievements was his A Midsummer Night's Dream with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, which saw the guitarist gracing the UK Classical charts in 1997.

http://www.stevehackett.com/reviews/classicrock.html

He also made a couple of Jazz albums.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 12 2008 at 02:07

russellk

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:13

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nothing will cancel his merits as Genesis and Brand X member, but his solo career is not Prog, as simple as that, so his solo career has no relatioin with Prog Archives.

Please I will answer some questions and tell me if I'nm not right:

Who is added to the database?: Those Prog or Prog Related bands and artists
When does a band or an artist is considered Prog or Prog Related?: When them/he/she release a Prog or Prog Related artistalbum.
When did Phil Collins as a SOLO ARTIST released a Prog or Prog Related album?: NEVER

He is already in the archives as Genesis and Brand X member, that can't be taken from him, Genesis was Prog legend, Brand X is a Prog Band, but Phil Collins individually NOT.

If that was so, every former member of a Prog band should be included here, despite they didn't released a Prog album or even a solo album, and that's not how it works.

Is there a page for Steve Walsh, Jurgen Fritz or Anna Holmgren? No, there isn't, despite their merits as Kansas, Triumvirat or Anglagard members.

So why should Phil Collins have a different treatment?

Iván

You may be misunderstanding me, Ivan, because I don't disagree with anything you say in this post.

I don't want Phil Collins, or anyone, to have a separate entry in PA if they haven't issued any prog material in their own name. But he IS in the database, not under his own name, but as a member of GENESIS and BRAND X.

However, you said earlier that this thread should be shifted to the general discussion. Why? Phil Collins is a well respected progressive musician AS WELL as subsequently becoming a successful pop artist. Any discussion of the merits of someone who is - surely undeniably - a progressive musician ought to be in the progressive lounge.

Perhaps this seems like a big deal over nothing. But I've never understood why fans of GENESIS are so angry at Phil Collins, as though what he did after 1980 has somehow negated what he did before that time. Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect.

kenmartree View Drop Down

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:16

^ thanks Ivan, I'm embarassed to say I don't have that one, a situation I will rectify immediately. Kenmar

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:31

Perhaps this seems like a big deal over nothing. But I've never understood why fans of GENESIS are so angry at Phil Collins, as though what he did after 1980 has somehow negated what he did before that time. Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect.
[/QUOTE]

Russell, as someone who is angry at Phil I will try to answer your question. first I assume you read my post on the last page about feeling betrayed. In the late 70's we were losing prog, TOTT and W&W were great albums despite Peter leaving and we had hope that Genesis would continue as a great band. It was losing that hope and losing our favorite band, being embarassed because when you said Genesis people associated the name with Pop. Do you see where I'm going? can you imagine the disappointment?

Hope that clears it up, I am curious if you were a Genesis fan in the 70's and didn't experience any of the emotions I've tired to convey. Kenmar

muddoctor

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:57

i'm not angry with collins,.. truly i still have my enjoyment when listening his worked after 1980 (except calling all stations). yeah, if abacab, Self titled & invisible touch is not pure prog albums.... so what ?

in life there's so many choices guys,... and collins have his own choice,.. why he just moved out from prog scene into pop scene? because money ? popularity ? only God and Collins know that !!! :D

Cheers,

MUD

Chris S

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 03:12

russellk wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nothing will cancel his merits as Genesis and Brand X member, but his solo career is not Prog, as simple as that, so his solo career has no relatioin with Prog Archives.

Please I will answer some questions and tell me if I'nm not right:

Who is added to the database?: Those Prog or Prog Related bands and artists
When does a band or an artist is considered Prog or Prog Related?: When them/he/she release a Prog or Prog Related artistalbum.
When did Phil Collins as a SOLO ARTIST released a Prog or Prog Related album?: NEVER

He is already in the archives as Genesis and Brand X member, that can't be taken from him, Genesis was Prog legend, Brand X is a Prog Band, but Phil Collins individually NOT.

If that was so, every former member of a Prog band should be included here, despite they didn't released a Prog album or even a solo album, and that's not how it works.

Is there a page for Steve Walsh, Jurgen Fritz or Anna Holmgren? No, there isn't, despite their merits as Kansas, Triumvirat or Anglagard members.

So why should Phil Collins have a different treatment?

Iván

The dislike for Collins I am sure is a catalyst for his constant threats to retire. He is a BLOODY legend and I thank Peter Gabriel for moving on because Collins had so much positive input after his departure. And I love PG by the way! Even Collin's contributions on ' Absent friends' and ' More Fool Me' get knocked. Poor guy!!

Heptade made a good point too, Banks, Rutherford and Collins made the Genesis 'POP' in latter years not just PC. Maybe the prog community's disdain as a whole ( not all) of the pop direction that some bands took encourages similar backlashes, from lovers of other genres of music ,to prog. I am not agreeing with any of the ill feelings and it serves no good purpose.

Also I think the thread should remain where it was originally posted. Additionally, one day it would be nice to see PC solo's in PA because of his prog history not because he went in a more commercial direction. 10cc Bloody Tourists is here ( great

) so should Face Value

Aside from these healthy debates this difference of opinions will never go away, especially Phil Collins but he deserves a lot more more credit than he gets IMHO

BTW, thanks PC for your contributions to..... er Steve Hackett, PG -3, Anthony Phillips, Brand X, Robert Plant, Peter and The Wolf (Various artists) the list goes on, all prog stalwarts.

peace

<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

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russellk

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 03:32

kenmartree wrote:

Perhaps this seems like a big deal over nothing. But I've never understood why fans of GENESIS are so angry at Phil Collins, as though what he did after 1980 has somehow negated what he did before that time. Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect.

Hope that clears it up, I am curious if you were a Genesis fan in the 70's and didn't experience any of the emotions I've tired to convey. Kenmar

[/QUOTE]

Kenmar, thank you so much for this. I was a big Genesis fan in the 1970s (you can read my reviews to confirm this!) but I liked what the band did pre- and post-1975. I can't say that I enjoyed 80s Genesis anywhere near as much, but I don't see Collins as being solely responsible for this. Given Gabriel's solo output I think Genesis would have gone much the same way if he'd remained.

No matter how disappointed I am with a band or an album, I never blame them. It's not their obligation to provide me with what I want. The 'demise' of my favourite 70s bands led me to discovering great new bands and music.

muddoctor

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 03:49

i felt the same way !!!

The 'demise' of my favourite 70s bands led me to discovering great new bands and music

and ...still discovery til the end !!!

Chris S

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 04:44

It's called revolution baby!! or...evolution, or in some cases devolution

The 70's represented the infancy of prog, the 80's yielded some great new genres and bands ( Simple Minds, Waterboys, World Party, Talking Heads, Prince, the Clash) and they too faded in terms of their " Big Music' ( some still delivering though!) as too hopefully will Yes this year.

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muddoctor

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 06:06

I believed there's always a good prog band in every single years

and every decade...

as long as we keep support them & critique them if they out of line.

so there's will be no more Phil Collins case in the future !!!

Prog On !!!

MUD

kenmartree View Drop Down

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 07:29

russellk wrote:

[

Kenmar, thank you so much for this. I was a big Genesis fan in the 1970s (you can read my reviews to confirm this!) but I liked what the band did pre- and post-1975. I can't say that I enjoyed 80s Genesis anywhere near as much, but I don't see Collins as being solely responsible for this. Given Gabriel's solo output I think Genesis would have gone much the same way if he'd remained.

No matter how disappointed I am with a band or an album, I never blame them. It's not their obligation to provide me with what I want. The 'demise' of my favourite 70s bands led me to discovering great new bands and music.

Russell, Good points you make, however I wasn't saying that PG should stay as it was obviously time to go. At least that's how I look at it now! gabe's solo career is much more world oriented and because of his work with amnesty international and other social/ political leanings, I think his poppier stuff was intended to bring a larger crowd to what he was doing and that was starting Real World and giving artists with not as much money a chance. But I digress... It's true that I too have found many great new bands, I just carry a grudge

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 12:05

Chris Stacey wrote:

However, you said earlier that this thread should be shifted to the general discussion. Why? Phil Collins is a well respected progressive musician AS WELL as subsequently becoming a successful pop artist. Any discussion of the merits of someone who is - surely undeniably - a progressive musician ought to be in the progressive lounge.

Not that simple Chris, some time ago Peter Gabriel was in Prog Related (I had a chance to move him to Symphonic, but I didn’t because I believed and still believe his solo output is not Symphonic), and I’m a fan of his music, as I sad before look at my avatar from PG Plays Live.

I did nothing to move him, he was moved to Crossover by Micky and I believe it’s OK, because despite PGI and PGII are Prog, other albums are poppier and others are world oriented, and his releases were discussed in Prtoo Prog/Prog Related Forum, because this forum has rules

Perhaps this seems like a big deal over nothing. But I've never understood why fans of GENESIS are so angry at Phil Collins, as though what he did after 1980 has somehow negated what he did before that time.

Please Chris, have you read y previous posts? I said clearly, that his merits as Genesis Brand X and Steve Hackett are undeniable, but as solo artist, he’s not Prog, as simple as that.

Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect.

Was talking about PG in the Proto Prog/Prog Related Forum a disrespect for him? I believe not, because according to Prog Archives he was a Prog Related Artist until Micky moved him to Crossover. (With what I agree).

It’s our system, our proccesdure, as simple as that.

Chris Stacey wrote:

Phil Collins never released a single Prog album, so he can’t be added to Prog Archives, Face Value is POP as all his albums, so we can’t add him.

Atilla is here, they did a Prog album before they split, but would you justify the inclusion of Billy Joel because he was the lead man of Attila?

I don’t know if 10cc addition is ok, but two mistakes don’t make a correct answer.

Iván

rushfan4

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 12:54

Last November, Easy Livin', an Admin, suggested that artists who were members of prog bands merited inclusion in Prog Related (discussion was regarding solo album from Laura Meade (?) from Izz). Therefore I started the below thread suggesting inclusion of Phil Collins in PA as prog-related. Most responses were similar to what is being said here, and I commend Ivan for his rabid consistency, which I know that he prides himself in. Anyhow, in case there is any interest see the below link for the responses to including PC in PA.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43521&KW=phil+collins

Raff

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:04

rushfan4 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43521&KW=phil+collins

Scott, according to that suggestion, we should include The Police (Stewart Copeland was a member of Curved Air), and even Motorhead (Lemmy was a member of Hawkwind) - plus a host of other bands I can't even think of now Wink

....

rushfan4

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:44

Raff, personally I don't have a problem with The Police in prog related. Motorhead would be more of a stretch for me, but I have seen others talk about them having influence on prog metal, so if the category fits... As you are apt to say, "prog related does not equal prog". As I said in that thread and elsewhere I have no problem with "once all of the full-fledged prog bands have been taken care of, we can move on to the prog related bands". Despite that, I have no doubt that Phil Collins would be included in the prog-related category based on his relation to Genesis, Brand X, etc... if it wasn't for the fact that there are influential members such as Ivan that are dead set against his inclusion. And yes, I understand that it is the Admins that choose who goes into prog-related and not the collaborators, but including Phil Collins in a non prog category called prog-related would anger too many people like Ivan and thus for what is considered the good of the site, PC hasn't been included. I don't have to agree with it, but I can accept it for what it is.

BTW, that is one evil looking cat in your latest picture.

Raff

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Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:54

Though prog-related is not prog, it should be related musically, not just because someone was in a band. Personally, I wouldn't raise a stink if PC was included (I am far too open-minded for that, and if I have to get mad, I have plenty of other reasons in real life Cry

...), but I am quite sure lots of people would, and this would be detrimental for the site. Let's face it, while people may turn up their noses at the likes of Iron Maiden or Queen, neither of those bands are considered 'traitors' to the prog cause, or destroyers of one of the most influential prog bands ever. Musically, PC's output has very little if anything to do with prog, and he has often expresses his dissociation from anything related to our beloved genre.

That said, I agree with the thread title, if we consider PC's contribution to Genesis and Brand X, as well as some of his session work with other prog musicians. I have never been a fan of his, and I find his voice rather irritating, but I have never shared the hatred lots of people seem to have for him. His music leaves me mostly cold, and if I want to listen to pop there are lots of other artists I'd rather choose - but I don't see him as the devil incarnate.

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