French approve ban on burqas... - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784

Posted: August 06 2010 at 13:45

The T wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Henry Plainview wrote:

I very clearly did not say they were right to respond in the way they did. But the cartoon is stupid (as all political cartoons are)

No they're not, you need to visit my cartoon thread, not that I think it would change or mind on anything.

I'm with Stariblastfast (

) on this.

sorry, couldn't help it

Most political caricatures are indeed often exagerating (to get the point across), but they provide some well-needed food for thoughts as it presents the problem from a different angle than the partizan factions are presenting the issues from their own private slant though the press.

if it wasn't for political caricatures actually wettting the powder keg, the extremist Flemish and Wallons would be a lot worse off and probably would be battling it out in the streets of Europe's capital.....

BTW.... it is precisely that caricature published here (the one you just posted) that created that big stink I spoke of.

How the hell are the makers of political cartoons any less partisan or privately slanted than any other medium? You realize political cartoons are part of the press.

They don't give food for thought. They try to reduce real discussion into a 500x500 pixel image which provides unsubstantiated and shallow loose connections and bad humor instead of anything resembling a reasoned argument.

As stupid as they may be, people have the liberty to create them right? And even muslims should respect that right? Even if it is offensive right? Because the possibility of people getting offended is meaningless against the exercise of liberty right?

So I guess, as a good libertarian, you should agree that political cartoons including the one from the muslim prophet have all the right to exist. Even if you may think that for personal considerations

such a cartoon should have never been drawn...

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

Those are the answers. Explanations not needed because no reasonable person would disagree I would hope.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784

Posted: August 06 2010 at 13:48

Sean Trane wrote:

Hey Pat,

That's probably because you don't known the good caricaturists. The ones I read are generally highly regarded by the public and in case of Belgium and France, they are often hired by the state=owned tv to illustrate the political debates of early sundays (between 12 and 1PM). It's part of the political life here in Europe, and every politician must deal with it.

Believe me, these caricaturist guys are hitting left right and center and are so good at it, that they don't even have ennemies. More than one politician even bought the original drawing about him to frame.... and I can tell you that surprisingly, it's not always the most gentle for him that they buy.

And I don't mean Doonsbury here, although there could be worsely partizan cartoons.

And sometimes they were downright hilarious (ever read the early Bloom County cartoons??? You might be a little young; because it was in the late 80's (mostly) and early 90's (the end) and sometimes just goofy and not political at all.

Not all newspaters are partizans in their political opinions.

The ones I read are generally fairly neutral. I make sure of it in the first few months of reading a newspaper (I started reading them fairly early.... I delivered them from age 10 until 18) , or else the info you read is too slanted.

Are you really going to argue that a one square cartoon is somehow can effectively encapsulate anything meaningful about an issue of any importance to the public? Show me one example.

I don't find them funny really, and I think you're misunderstanding me. My point is that political cartoons have the same level of bias as anything else.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: August 06 2010 at 14:12

Finnforest wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

The T wrote:

So I guess, as a good libertarian, you should agree that political cartoons including the one from the muslim prophet have all the right to exist. Even if you may think that for personal considerations

such a cartoon should have never been drawn...

I am confused. Are you suggesting that because touchy Muslims who get their panties in a twist because people in pluralist societies draw pictures, we actually shouldn't draw the pictures? It's all the more reason to draw them! These people don't get that people in our society can call their beliefs sh*t, point out how unreasonable they are, and laugh at them, and it's all completely legal? Get a thicker skin or get out of the society, but don't try to threaten us into Sharia, radical Muslims.

You don't come into a society based on freedom of expression and try to get rid of the right to freedom of expression.

Agreed Stoney. Tolerance is a two-way street. You have the right to practice your faith in our society (even though we don't in yours), but we don't give up our freedom of expression, and we don't have to allow Sharia's treatment of women in our midst, just because more Muslims are moving into Europe and US.

In what part of my text am I saying that freedom of expression shouldn't have been applied? I'm actually quite happy with depictions of mohammed and I'd be glad to mock the lunatic in tv if somebody gave me air time, though I wouldn't do it because then PA would have to mourn the loss of The T.... Tongue

My comment to Pat's post was in reference to the fact that he criticized us criticizing muslims for building a center near ground zero. Ok. They have freedom to do it even if in my view is not the best idea for personal considerations. In this case it's the other way around, maybe personal considerations could stop somebody from drawing images of the muslim prophet, but they have all the right to exist, as well as cartoons of every living and imagined being....

My point was, sometimes there ARE personal considerations. Under the banner of full liberty, they shouldn't really matter. I though Equality was inconsistent for a change, but I was proven wrong, which in this case is good. Big smile

Edited by The T - August 06 2010 at 14:13

Finnforest View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17258

Posted: August 06 2010 at 14:31

Teo, I wasn't getting into your specific discussion or into this thread.....I just saw a rare instance where I agree with Stoney generally, and wanted to celebrate the occasion. Carry on

...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: August 06 2010 at 14:36

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20412

Posted: August 06 2010 at 17:13

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Hey Pat,

And I don't mean Doonsbury here, although there could be worsely partizan cartoons.

Not all newspaters are partizans in their political opinions.

Are you really going to argue that a one square cartoon is somehow can effectively encapsulate anything meaningful about an issue of any importance to the public? Show me one example.

I don't find them funny really, and I think you're misunderstanding me. My point is that political cartoons have the same level of bias as anything else.

I am quite sure that the "drawing cartoon" posted (and disliked by Plainview) could change/modify (at least a bit) a lot of minds about the attitudes towards jews, and not only moderates in the muslim world if they were to see it, but also amongst moderate jews and christians.

I'm sure that one "drawing" cartoon never was published in Arab countries (it probably would've had too many people wondering about the extremist's real cause), but the second (the bomb) was; and it was the one that set .fire to the region's embassies

Even as an atheist, I don't find the drawing cartoon funny (rew a smirk, but no more), but thought-provoking, even though it 's nothing new (for me at least).

But it's all fromthe perspective you have. You see that drawing carttoon as biased, I see it neutral (since I don't have a side to choose between religions), so I see it as unbiased, and it is saying a big truth .

---------------------

and if you remember the previous thread about the relief ship being invaded outside Gaza's coast, I was seen as an anti-jew by some extremist rightwinged person (the closing, if i remember well), while in this case, I'd be seen as pro--jew or anti-muslim.

It turns out I'm neither pro nor against either side.

I just count the blows and prey for the end of all religions and sects.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784

Posted: August 06 2010 at 22:00

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Hey Pat,

And I don't mean Doonsbury here, although there could be worsely partizan cartoons.

Not all newspaters are partizans in their political opinions.

Are you really going to argue that a one square cartoon is somehow can effectively encapsulate anything meaningful about an issue of any importance to the public? Show me one example.

I don't find them funny really, and I think you're misunderstanding me. My point is that political cartoons have the same level of bias as anything else.

Even as an atheist, I don't find the drawing cartoon funny (rew a smirk, but no more), but thought-provoking, even though it 's nothing new (for me at least).

---------------------

It turns out I'm neither pro nor against either side.

I just count the blows and prey for the end of all religions and sects.

Yet again you're not understanding me. I never said biased.

How exactly does it provoke thought? What does it make you think about? What new evidence or reasoned argument does it introduce into your mind? Or do you not require new ideas, logic, or facts to change your viewpoint.

BTW I'm not accusing you of being for or against any particular group, you seem to just be a cartoon enthusiast to me.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

stonebeard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057

Posted: August 06 2010 at 22:28

I don't think most cartoons try to add new facts to a debate or even debate, but to encapsulate the issue, sometimes poignantly.

And not encapsulate as in "explain totally" but just to make it the issue in a nutshell.

I don't usually laugh at them, and they're often just dumb and partisan when they try to be funny. It's more of a wry smile and a, "Yep, that's pretty much how it is," kind of reaction.

Edited by stonebeard - August 06 2010 at 22:30

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Chris S

Special Collaborator