French approve ban on burqas...
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Topic: French approve ban on burqas...
Posted By: The T
Subject: French approve ban on burqas...
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 13:49
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French lawmakers have approved a ban on burqas, that piece of clothing that covers all the woman's body including her face. Polls show most people in France, Germany, Spain and others approve of a ban like this while 2 out of 3 americans oppose it. What are your views? I'm very interested in libertarian opinions... ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 13:50
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Here's a good take on this issue: http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=22920 - http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=22920 Warning, long article... |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 13:50
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I think this is a terrible decision for many reasons. (Teo) What is your view?
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 14:03
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Good decision......what is a libertarian? i am not familiar with this word/ ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 15:39
I'd be interested in hearing the reasons too. I'm kind of torn on this though I tend to agree with the ban. It is slightly negative for religious freedom but I can't accept religious ideas that make one half of the population into second-class persons, and that forces them to hide behind a curtain. Maybe they feel freer inside the veil? Maybe. But themandate to wear it is a man-made (male-made should I say) decision, imposition on all muslim woman who wouldn't have a choice not to wear the thing (at least those in the radical exextremes of the religion) so I think this decision is healthy and a steo towards less discrimination. -------------
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Padraic wrote:Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 15:57
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I've read that many women do not feel imposed upon at all by the tradition and are actually insulted by the feminist reaction toward it. However, I can see one reason behind the ban: Suppose a person commits a crime? Identifying her would be very hard with a covered face. However, does this mean it's illegal to wear masks in public as well? The French do celebrate Halloween, I believe.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:22
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I think it is an animal/human instinct to demand that we should be able to see another's creature/humans face to check out if that creature/human being is displaying aggressive or friendly behavior. In short, every single one of us is always risk analyzing everything that comes across us on a street. Human faces is an important part of a risk analysis. This is our basic human instincts.......... as well as the instincts a dog and a cat lives by too. Burkas on cats or dogs will create total havoc in the animal kingdom. Hence I support this ban on all veils, burkas, closed helmets and masks worn in city streets. I became aware of this risk analysis when I lived in a terrorist ravaged city for some years. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:31
I can understand this reaction. I also feel that in some Muslim communities and countries, women are treated horribly. However, there are some women that choose to wear these garments as an expression of their religion. Also, tell me what you think will happen: do you see that this law is going to all of a sudden make the Islamic communities in France say, "Wow, they're right, our religion/culture is just completely wrong about this." Or will they really bristle about non-Muslims dictating to them what their women should wear - honestly, how do you think they will react to this? Is this really the best way to try to achieve a modicum of integration into Western society and thought, by force of law? Now that being said, because it's a full body veil I can see placing restrictions on its use; for example, it might be prudent to say that you're not allowed to drive wearing one of these, or if a police officer requests that you show your face you will need to do so. I think those are sensible restrictions; an outright ban goes too far. If a Muslim woman and law-abiding citizen wants to simply walk down the street wearing a burqa than we should not forbid that.
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:34
I've seen videos of people trying to hide their face with bags over their head while attempting to rob a store. That didn't turn out to well.  |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:45
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I find the idea of a government telling its citizens what they can and cannot wear utterly abhorrent. Yet another reason to dislike France.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:46
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Before anyone gets carried away by freedom of religious expression we should remind ourselves that the burka is not required to be warn according to the koran. It was men who insisted that women wear it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:47
For me its a reason to like France. Go figure. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:49
Don't get me wrong. I am no friend of Islam. But what people choose to wear is their own business, not some bureaucrat's. -------------
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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:49
| sh*t, and we can't even get a law passed that allows police officers to question if you're an illegal immigrant or not. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 17:43
Because, you know, freedom is fine but not for anyone who wants to wear a
burkha?
This is, of course, true for ALL MUSLIM WOMEN EVER, especially that one on the BBC program I saw who claimed (forced to, no doubt, by her evil husband and the patriarchal society) that she wore it out of choice as a badge of pride. While I think we should crush hypocrisy and double-standards everywhere, I think that taking away legal and by extension actual freedom to wear what you like to preserve... um... actual freedom to wear what you like is very odd indeed. (and whether the koran requires it should hardly be relevant in a secular country like, say, France) |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 18:05
When said choice is not really one, when is not really free, when there's no "liberty" (to use the right word) for one half of the population, I applaud the bureaucrat's action. Many islamic women probably choose to wear that sh*t out of religious pride, maybe. But what about the other big (probably higher) percentage of islamic women who are forced to hide only because men said it so? Where's the liberty? This makes it equal for all of them. You can't wear it whether you want it or not. Problem solved. Who is to say if the very religious choice was any free? Did these women freely choose to be muslim? Let's go one step forward in all-around liberty then... people should have a choicer over what religion they follow... For many of these women born in muslim countries (not in France) did that choice ever exist?? Just another reason to admire France. -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 18:28
Actions like this are disgusting. How do you make people free by restricting what they can do T? Although I would disagree that a majority of Islamic women dislike the burqas, you argument for outlawing them seems to be that the women do not wish to participate in this religious conviction, but still do so. If the women wear burqas out of threat of force if they chose otherwise, does this law make them any more free? The proper course of action is to ensure that they, and everyone, are free from coercion. In your analysis you're only looking at one group: those that do not wish to wear burqas but are forced to. Not only does this law only ostensibly help them, but you completely ignore those who wish to wear it. What about their rights? Did you make the decision that they are not to be considered? Further you're completely unconcerned with giving government this enormous power over the lives of its citizens without any consideration for how that power may be used a week later in a circumstance that doesn't benefit you and your opinions. [Not trying to speak for llama. The questions seemed general and not directly posed to him.] ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 18:59
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As usual, I would (hopelessly) hope that people would step back and ask the significance of Muslim dress in the first place, rather than make glib assumptions that taking Western culture for granted has granted us. Here's an article on the subject by a Jewish professor: http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=5886 - http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=5886 Also, from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html An excerpt from the latter: When asked what they resented most about their own societies, a majority of Muslim women polled said that a lack of unity among Muslim nations, violent extremism, and political and economic corruption were their main concerns. The hijab, or head scarf, and burqa, the garment covering face and body, seen by some Westerners as tools of oppression, were never mentioned in the women's answers to the open-ended questions, the poll analysts said. And The most frequent response to the question, "What do you admire least about the West?" was the general perception of moral decay, promiscuity and pornography that pollsters called the "Hollywood image" that is regarded as degrading to women. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:03
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I think people understand that, besides the most egocentric of us Westerners. The motivation behind the law is xenophobia not any sort of noble goal of "liberating" Muslim women.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:07
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm You can be modest without wearing a burqa, |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:08
While we're on that subject, we should just ban all clothes so noone can carry concealed weapons... (and surely you can risk analyze by saying 'that man's wearing a balaclava, I'll leave him alone?') |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:10
You can be sexy without wearing thongs... so? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:12
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ooh, this thread's heating up I'm not in favor of it. Having grown up in a cosmopolitan, multi-ethnic city, the notion that someone wearing a burqa should be feared or suspected is a bit unsophisticated. But if that's what the majority of the French want, so be it. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:15
There are clear alternatives to the all-encompassing piece of headgear. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:21
Yeees but they shouldn't be banned to protect people's freedom to wear what they like either. (i.e. I think the freedom of religion line is superfluous given a plain freedom of wearing clothes line is pretty reasonable) |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:22
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Man, and I thought Americans were cynical.
------------- Hail Eris! 
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Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:25
There's a difference between what that they like and what they're obligated to wear. If its really a faith issue, then there's other things to wear in order to oblige religious dictates (things that don't shroud the entire head and make identification impossible). |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:38
Talk about missing the issue. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:46
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I think the concept of lowering women's self-worth and importance is detestable. Having said that, I'm going to have to call ''bullsh*t'' on this ban. I agree with it emotionally, but can't approve of such a thing, mainly on principle. Freedom means freedom, and making something like a religion-induced garb literally illegal goes against a lot of what I feel to be correct. I'm no fan of this stuff, but forcing people into leaving it behind by placing harsh laws isn't the way to go about this. Folks need to leave this type of thing by their own accord, not because the lawmakers tell them to.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:48
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Even though I'm not religious (anymore, at least), people have the right as human beings to express their religious views, whether it be by going to a church or a mosque, or in this case, wearing burqas. It's a terrible idea, and just restricts peoples freedom of religion and expression as individuals. If the government can tell you what not to wear on your head, is it only a matter of time before they can tell you what shirt to wear? Or what shoes to buy? I will openly admit that quite a few Muslim organizations are a bit "shady", but I assure you it's not because of what women are wearing on their heads. ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:50
I agree with this, basically. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:50
| What SHOULD be somehow prohibited by law is the religion's persecution of those who may choose to not wear the burqa. Judgment and shunning to the point of shame or exile still happens sometimes among radicals, even in western/westernized cultures. THAT is something reprehensible and just plain wrong, from any angle. The burqa itself isn't the issue, and if a woman wants to wear one, that should be allowed. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:54
And just how should such "judgment and shunning to the point of shame" be regulated, might I ask? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:57
Did I say it could, or did I say it should? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:01
That's fair. You should know though that in modern (not just ancient) middle Eastern and Mediterranean cultures, shame is a big motivator for maintaining a certain behavior. I've read that natives will even lie to tourists asking for directions rather than admit not knowing. Now I said you should know this...I didn't say you could. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:03
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^ Of course shame can be a great motivator. So can violence. Something that gets the job done isn't always morally correct. But I'm sure you're already aware of this, and all I'm doing is arguing for the sake of keeping a debate going.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:09
| let's put a burqa over this discussion |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:10
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It always struck me as one of those issues we seem to care about more than them. I have read/heard many times a lot of women don't see it as a big issue... and then there's the whole rights thing. I don't like the idea of the ban. People can't be forced to wear it, and so it should be the same other way around. Thats my opinion, (coming from the social libertarian and economic lefto pink commie ) |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:13
You would still be able to smell it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:15
For some people, the scent is all they need. . . .
 Even I don't know what I mean. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:19
| hey at least it's a chance for us bedwetting progressives to agree on something with our faithful libertines.. and for me, it's not even an issue of debasing women; that's a given and it's detestable. But if some of these gals wanna wear a scary-looking black hood, then it becomes a matter of basic individual rights. And since presumably the country of France is not a private institution, you can't really just take those rights away. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:27
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I'm really asking that before people go on about "debasing women" (not directing this at you, David, just borrowing your words), that they read the article I posted on page one: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html These women have bigger issues on their mind than what they wear. That's more than I can say for a quite a few women in the US. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:28
Oh my, I forgot that was never changed back. To clarify for everyone, I am not a French citizen nor do I currently reside in France. I have long since returned to the United States, where I am a citizen. I apologize for the misunderstanding. ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 21:40
Not to demean American women, but are you sure they have bigger issues on their minds than what to wear? Some days, I ain't so sure  ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 21:44
Is that "Hollywood image" showing one's face in public? I would have thought they'd least admire us for invading the sh*t out of their countries but no, they've got some weird Puritan in Baghdad thing going on. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 02:48
Why all this fuss? I guess there are mo more than twenty women in toute France wearing a burqa. 
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 03:02
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Please remember people, site rules state all posts to be in English - many thanks. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 03:18
There are far more non-English posts in other threads which are sometimes even harder to read. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58488&PID=3724442#3724442 - Here , for instance... -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 04:18
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This appears to be Sarkozy trying to appeal to far right voters. Legislating against items of clothing is the sort of nonesense you'd expect in a country like Iran or Saudi, not a modern progressive, multiculural society like France.
I dont persoanlly like to see women in Bhurkas and similar attire. As a westerner I percieve it to be a symbol of oppression and a backward culture, but it is not perceived as such by most women who wear these things. The French have said it will be a difficult law to enforce, and quite understandably most women have said will not adhere to it. This is said to be part of the ongoing discussion in France about what constitiutes 'French identity' I'm not sure if Sarkozy would like all his citizens to dress in striped shirts, with a string of onion round their neck, playing accordions on street corners, but when you consider there are over 5 million Muslims on France, not to mention hundreds of other ethnic groups, then you have to concede that the 'identity' of modern France is one of a multicultural melting pot. Whether one likes it, or not. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 06:05
Thanks for the heads up - similar request posted there -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 06:12
I agree - this could be seen as an assault by a multicultural cosmopolitan nation on religious freedoms; the burqa is (to my mind anyway) no more or less visible as a symbol of an individual's religion as say the garments worn by the Hassidic jewish community: 
If, as Andy says, France are trying to appeal to the far right...  -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 06:55
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For the record, France never wanted to be a "multicultural" country; everyone is welcome here, with the condition of accepting French social values (which are especially the "social contract", "laicity" and "rationalism"). If you read the article I posted just after the OP, you'll be offered a detailed comparison between "multiculturalism" and "integration", and the reasons why the latter appears to be a better solution. France is not trying to limit the personal expression of identity of anyone, just to prohibit what offends French values - like a symbol of women oppression. Also if you read the article I posted, you'll see that immigrants are fine with French values and have chosen to integrate. This is a minor issue that makes waves in the press more than in the streets. BTW burqa has already been banned in other European countries, and nothing happened. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 07:09
Very true, but multiculturism and integration need not be mutually exclusive. By how much are Muslims expected to 'integrate' into French culture? Out of interest, are there faith schools in France? I support a completely secular education system, but in the UK faith schools can still be, at least in part, state funded. Is that the same in France? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 07:22
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^ I have no idea, but I'll ask. That's a good question. Most of the education done in France is public, and from what I know private schools have recently gained ground only because of the constant degradation of public school education. RE how much are Muslims expected to integrate, I don't think there's anything written down except for this recent burqa prohibition, what I can say is that after living more than one year here (in and around Paris) I have yet to see any expression of religious identity (certain extravagant clothes, symbols, prayer at the fixed hours). But I have much to learn about French society. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 09:08
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What he said.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 09:14
Though I disagree with the law I think harmonium.ro has a point that there obviously has to be limits - didn't I read that something like 40% of British Muslims would like to see sharia law instituted in the UK? And then this unbelievable reaction to that? Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4's World at One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system. Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion. For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court. He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 09:15
| For those unaware, Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 10:45
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I haven't read down the thread but here's my view. First off how do we know it's a woman under there. Maybe some criminal will get an idea to use it as a disguise to rob the corner store or an armoured car. When we go over to their countries we have to respect their customs and traditions and a good example is the cosumption of alcohol. If they want to come over to France, Canada, The United States etc. to live or visit they have to respect ours. It's cut and dry as far as I'm concerned. Some of these people come over to western countries for a better life and we're prepared to giv it to them. What I don't understand is why they want to push their sh*t on us. One thing that has a lot of people still pissed here in Canada is that the East Indians who join the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are permitted to wear turbans. Th RCMP is full of tradition and the uniform reflects that. I had a friend who was pulled over for speeding by an officer wearing a turban and he refused to co-operate until an officer was sent wearing the proper uniform. So they actually sent another cruiser with an officer with the proper uniform and he got his speeding ticket. There is also provisions in the Canadian Forces for them to wear tubans as part of the uniform. Well there's my take on all this. ------------- |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 10:48
Sounds like you could become governor of Arizona. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 10:54
 Who is this guy?------------- |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 10:56
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:01
Man, I'm glad you weren't in power when I wore my awesome invisible man costume a couple of Halloween's ago. -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:02
What sh*t exactly are they pushing on us? The decision for them to personally wear a type of headdress that they chose while taking no position on what anybody besides their individual self should wear? Oh yeah look at them push their culture on us. Why can't they learn how to properly and respectfully conform to other's cultures like us Westerners. The pilgrims and the Indians, they knew how to respect each other's culture. And just so know this exists for criminals to rob armored cars (lol) and is perfectly legal:  ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:06
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OK I'll watch the damn video.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:06
Sorry, Mel Gibson was recently nominated by the GOP... -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:24
This time I totally agree with your video Mike. -------------
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:42
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"When in Rome....." ...or Paris
NON...M'sieur...!
 -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:47
Only if that King dude from the Black Panthers is the Dems candidate. This guy calls for the killing of whites and white babies publicly, on tape, and it gets almost zero attention.
Doesn't support the narrative that only white people hate. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:48
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Sadly I would like for people to dress as they want to, but the problem with the burka is that is perfect for concealing a terrorist and his/her weapons. Are there not a sufficient number of countries that will allow or even require you to wear one if you're a woman?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:51
I'm pretty sure terrorists would prefer trench coats, not something that greatly restricts peripheral vision. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:58
It greatly restricts everything... yet men force it on women... And we're supposed to defend their right to do so... Go figure.
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:58
| ^ and insures scrutiny due to belonging to the ethnicity considered to be terrorists |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 11:59
Last time I checked in the mirror, I still wasn't black... And yes, hate comes from both sides. A little more from the hating side of course (whichever it is )-------------
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:00
| ban the poncho in arizona.........and on and on |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:07
So you assume. You didn't read the article I posted apparently. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:16
The article never says "women are happy with burkas" or "women don't care about using burkas". It just says that there are more pressing needs in their minds, like free vote, and the possibility to work, among other ones. Don't you think once women start to get more equal rights to men burkas will become more of a priority? The article doesn't negate my assumption (I agree it's one). It just puts it aside in favor of more pressing issues (which I agree are even more important). -------------
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:24
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Well something good has come out of all this. It changes my halloween costume plans for this year. Originally I was going to go as Herman Munster and my wife was going to go as Lilly Munster. But I've changed my mind. I'll dress up in a burqa and be the woman and my wife can dress up as the arab man. Bit of a problem though. I'm 6 foot 3 and my wife is only 5 foot 7. It's going to look a bit strange but hey it's halloween everybody looks a bit strange on halloween.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:27
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That article you posted sends the exact opposite message to the one you are trying to imply, Rob It says clear that women in Muslim countries want equality between sexes (meaning, equal rights for women), and they know this happens in the West. France shouldn't disappoint. Also, the fact that women in Muslim countries have other, more important, issues does not concern the situation in France, simply because those issue don't exist in France. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:32
You are not going to solve the women's rights issue in the Muslim world with this law. You simply won't. But there will be women, strange as it may seem to us non-Muslims, who are now forbidden to wear (their choice) the garments that are part of their heritage and culture - as much as that culture may be abhorrent to the average Westerner. I think this is just a difference in mindset between the American and the European and we're probably just bewildered at the others' take on this.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:34
From http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-burqa.htm - http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-burqa.htm The Burqa is not worn much outside the three countries listed, but some women feel a sense of freedom wearing the burqa that they would not have otherwise. They cite that they don’t have to be concerned with personal appearance when they need to run quick errands. They don’t have to worry about being scrutinized or getting unwanted attention from men. Their personal expressions, except for in the eyes are hidden which can also promote better bargaining at certain shops. I realize some Muslim women do not want to wear the garment, but it is clear that others appreciate it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:37
Allowing women to wear a burqa isn't defending the right of men to force women to behave a certain way. Its defending the right to be able to wear a garment of your choosing. You're creating this false dichotomy and trying to justify your position with it. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:42
Canada and India were both outposts of a now-dead empire whose lackeys (oops, "soldiers") came from various backgrounds, thus making this not a wholly alien link |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:45
Do you imagine that anyone in France thought that by issuing a law concerning what happens in France they will help with women's rights in the Muslim world?
That, in theory. Practically, the burqa is just one (not the only) element of a culture of oppression against women. Sure, there are women who got used to it, but this doesn't take the French the right to deny this culture completely from French public space.
Yes, and also a difference coming from different degrees of involvement with the issue. It looks different from inside than from the outside (I was told exactly the same thing when debating various stuff about American issues, btw ). |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:47
You're trying to defend the right of women to wear garments forced upon them by men... I understand your love of absolute liberty is behind this and you give your opinion according to your principles. I just don't see it that way. Some government intervention is necessary. And this is one of those cases. And about governments forcing things I don't agree with or like, I have experience, much more than you probably. In my country right now is a far-left president who's almost a dictator. I oppose his views. That's my right. That doesn't mean I have to promote the absolute lack of government as the answer. -------------
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:48
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As far as I know, various veils and scarves have ancient tradition, but burquas hiding entire (female) body from forehead to toes is relatively new invention, perhaps a century old; and motivated more politically than religiously. I think woman in Kabul would welcome such a ban, including a few other ones, such is not being aloud to sing in public. Such sinister laws are NOT imposed because of certain religion. They're monstrously skewed from good origins - Nietzsche's philosophical concept of ubermensch led to Nazism, Marx's idea that 'workers should controls productions' led to socialism. One of the Abrahamic religions - the Islam - is basically similar to many (dare I say all?) human religions - a belief in God, the idea of Love, a moral codex that is basically teaching not to steal, to respect the elderly, be a honest man. Let us not forget the Muslim word paved the way for some tremendous human achievements, such are math, astronomy and medicine; as well as great works of art and literature - while Europe was in the dark middle ages. That being said, sacred texts could be interpreted in many ways - varying from humane, tolerant, love-nurturing, to those oppressing Universal Declaration of Human Rights; just take a look in how many different ways Christianity could interpret The Bible. I've read the Qur'an (I have three copies at home) and if anyone think something is inherently wrong in it as as set of moral codices , well, that's just plain wrong. It's interesting it acknowledges Jesus as a prophet (Muslim prophet of course - Allah simply means God, so a human being who believes in God following a certain codex is Muslim, no mystification here), also it states Muslims and followers of other religions should have respectful conversations and debates. I'm not a Muslim, so I take various chapters with a grain of salt - this book was written centuries ago, just like the Bible, so some things such are stoning homosexuals to death should be looked from the historical perspective. My two cents. ------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:50
The intention only has to do with France, a sovereign country that can do what it wants to adapt people to its system, just like America.
Again, the French have the right to preserve their culture as much as Americans crying for "learn english" have... (not a cheap shot, is just the first example I could think of... )
Exactly. As I mentioned, in Spain and Germany there's a lot of agreement with this ban. In America there isn't. It's two different worlds. -------------
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:50
BTW why is Firefox's spell check underlining "women's" when I write "women's rights"? Does Firefox also think that women should not have a genitive, meaning that women can't own anything? Now that's oppressive 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 12:51
No, I'm sure they were concerned with the throngs of Parisian Christian women who walk around wearing burqas. Fine, substitute Muslim world with French Muslim community. You knew what I meant. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:00
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@Pat: sorry, I actually thought you meant that. Maybe I'm not very bright, I've been told that before. Well, I don't know how much will this law will "solve", but it will send the few fundamentalists a strong signal. But really, this issue isn't major at all in France. People here are quite relaxed, and the integration policy has worked in general. Other countries have much bigger problems with the Muslim communities, like UK or Netherlands. If I remember well, Theo Van Gogh, Vincent Van Gogh last descendant, was killed on the street by cutting his throat exactly because he produced a critical documentary about women's right in the Dutch Muslim community. I don't see that possible in France... But if the situation would be similar to that, I think the measures taken would be different, according to the context.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:04
Because FireFox is an overrated web browser with more kinks than a Na'vi's hair braid.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:05
Perfectly agreed, excellent and necessary points! I wanted to say RE Mike's video that I agree with the guy except for the moment when he blames it on Islam. He should blame it on the people and on the society who created this culture of women oppression. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:08
OK, but I'd like to think Muslims that live in this country are for the most part well integrated without us having to pass laws banning burqas, minarets, etc.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:13
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^ I don't agree with that, should we also renounced at the laws concerning theft, fraud, assault, etc. just because society manages to educate most kids into thinking those are bad things? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:14
No, and if you can't see the difference between theft and wearing a garment, I'm at a loss.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:17
One time my wife wore this one outfit, and she totally stole my heart.  As you can see, they are quite related.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:19
| @Pat: Same here; if you don't see the difference between wearing any garment and wearing a burqa, then it means that you don't want to make a difference between them - but the difference exists and you're ignoring it in the name of your principles. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:20
His name is Pat Condell, and if you look for him on YouTube you'll find some more drastic stuff. Suffice it to say that if you're religious and easily offended, steer clear. BTW: As an American you might want to watch his video on the planned mega mosque near Ground Zero. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:21
Boy Alex. Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree. That ocean seems like it's a big divide.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:22
| Ultimately, I'll stop caring, as I don't live in France and am not a Muslim woman. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 13:23
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What was that again about debate on the internet being useless? Anyone have their mind changed this time around?
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