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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Offensive post
    Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:21

I believe this post is offensive and discriminatory, not to say stupid:

prog o matic
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:46 | IP Logged Quote prog  o  matic

ivan_2068 wrote:
s1ipp3ry wrote:
prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same. 

Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, 

But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?

Slipp3ry, reading the first parragraph I quote and the mention to plains kidnapped to be crashed into the World trade centre are obvious and clear, this is a USA citizen talking.

Nobody outside USA would ignore the violence in the 70's. Or maybe Prog O Matic is a kid that knows nothing about the 70's what i doubt because he/she talks about kids leaving alone in the streets

It's very sad that the fantasy of seccurity ended for USA in such a tragic and criminal way, but nobody in Europe, South/Central  America, Asia or Africa would speak of a fantasy worlds in the 70's.

My work has trained me to see behind the words, i don't try to stab in the dark.

Iván

 

Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.  The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate  !

If we allow this kind of discrimination, we are going the wrong way: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19020& amp; amp;PN=1

Read the whole thread and I believe it should be deleted.

I believe posts like this one create a reaction against USA, reaction that is used as an excuse by people that disagree with that country.

If I that have a lot of simpathy for USA feel anger for this retarded moron, imagine what could pass by the mind os somebody that doesn't like USA.

Iván

 



Edited by ivan_2068
            
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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2006 at 03:15
"The sh*t hits the fan" is a common expression, comparable to the German "Die Kacke ist am dampfen", "The sh*t is steaming". I see nothing offensive in it. The expression refers to general chaos.


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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2006 at 04:01

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"The sh*t hits the fan" is a common expression, comparable to the German "Die Kacke ist am dampfen", "The sh*t is steaming". I see nothing offensive in it. The expression refers to general chaos.

Read the whole thread, acccording to this guy nobody matters only USA we, savages from little countries are worth nothing.

As I said I have nothing against USA, by the contrary I like their system more than any orher one, but there are many other things.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:38

Having read the thread, Prog O Matic looks like a troll to me. His initial posting wasn't exactly well argued, and when Ivan used historical facts to put forward a contrary point of view he launched into increasingly personal attacks and seemed to pay no attention to the main gist of the argument.

Ivan, I think your response was maybe a bit of an over reaction (although I agree with the point you're making) but I think the time has now come to either close or delete the thread and move on - and let's keep an eye on the newcomer and see if he makes any more trouble.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 12:08

Dealt with. Case closed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 16:05

Thanks Tony it was the healthiest thing to do, I was terribly worried for Erlenst whio was insulted by Prog O Matic and called and a$$ licker by a troll with no arguments.

Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Having read the thread, Prog O Matic looks like a troll to me. His initial posting wasn't exactly well argued, and when Ivan used historical facts to put forward a contrary point of view he launched into increasingly personal attacks and seemed to pay no attention to the main gist of the argument.

Ivan, I think your response was maybe a bit of an over reaction (although I agree with the point you're making) but I think the time has now come to either close or delete the thread and move on - and let's keep an eye on the newcomer and see if he makes any more trouble.

Syzgy, i don't believe I over reacted in my first post.

This place is as an Oasis for me after work, I'm tired of listening our foreign clients and TV news programs talking about the rest of the world, especially Latin America s if we don't exist or don't matter at all.

But in Prog Archives I always found people (except one or two troglodites) who are very well prepared and care for the history and what happens in the rest of the world.

I love USA, I even studied a couple of years in Birmingham Alabama, I had a discussion (very friendly) with Trotsky becausae I'm closer to free market than to socialist economies, but I hate people who belive we're some kind of second class humans from "Little Places"

My first post was:

Quote

prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same. 

Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, 

Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens who lived in a bubble of false seccurity, they felt untocheable because since Pearl Harbor they were never attacked  in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.

Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972.

13 November 1972 in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed , he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.

The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.

The problems between England and the IRA or Spain and the ETA already existed in the 70's.

 or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre ! 

The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.

27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians (EDIT: Germans if I'm not wrong), the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.

The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !

The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.

I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on !  its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time.  The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that ! 

Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East, Cambodia (AKA The Democratic Kampuchea, where 50% of the citizens were killed with plastic bagas to save bullets) if it was a fantasy era.

The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.

Iván


"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?

Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.

BTW: There was great Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.


I just pointed that the rest of the world didn't lived a paradise in the 70's, not either USA, Nixon was reelected with protests of 50% of the USA citizens, the Watergate scandal weakened the Presidential image. The oil crisis affected USA and there was a limitation of fuel if I'm not wrong.

The Sharon Tate crime was only the tip of the iceberg in the Charles Manson case even before the 70's officialy started (1969).

I was horrified for the World Trade Center attack, it was terrible, I can still remember that morning when the General Manager of Volvo called those of us who had manager rank to his office, and the faces were incredible, none of us could believe our eyes.

All the world took side with USA, because it was horrendous.

But I can't foget back in 1972 when I saw my Mother with tears on her eyes while watching how the Israel Olimpic Team (Kids no older than the sons of most of our older members) was killed and the rest of the world did nothing, the Olympic games of 1972 continued as if nothing would have happened, and I remember Golda Meier crying on TV and saying that while they buried their sons, the rest of the world kept celebrating.

I can't forget how millions of Cambodians were killed by a lunatic called Pol Pot, how the culture the educated people were sacrificed in worst conditions than we sacrifice the cows or chickens to eat the, hoiw the books were burned, how the cities were emptied and the people sent to labour all day for a dish of rice. We're talking about two million humans if I'm not wrong.

Some of you might remember that almost each day a plane was kidnapped and taken to Cuba, The Democratic (????) Republic of Germany, USSR or the Middle East.

Because of my political orientation I didn't liked Allende, I was against anything he believed in, if I was Chilean I would definetely voted against him, but the crimes commited by Pinochet in Chile had no name, people was tortured and slaughtered in the National Stadium, the singer and Poet Victor Jara is just one of the victims, great part of the population had to escape like Violeta Parra and her sons (Los Jaivas) who were refugees in France.

Names as Stephen Biko who was brutally assasinated or Nelson Mandela in prison and the Peace Nobel Prize Bishop Desmond Tutu are echoes of the medieval Apartheid, a system that was criticized by the whole world, but noboody did anything to  really stop it like sending UN Peace Corps.

I remember when the priests suspended classes in school to pray for the release of Aldo Moro in Italy, but he was killed.

In 1974 Jerry Conlon, Paul Hill, Carole Richardson and Paddy Armstrong  were arrested and accused of terrorism for the only sin of being born Catholic and in Ireland, despite the police had incotrovertible proves of their innocence, they were sentenced to live in prison.

Even the terrorists of the IRA confessed before the police, but they were ordered to keep silence.

But that wasn't all Conlon's aunt, Annie Maguire, and his Father, Guiseppe Conlon were arrested despite they were not even near London or even in English territiry and sentenced to 14 years in prison. Giussepi Conlon died of a lung disease caused by the inhuman conditions they were kept.

In 1989 an English lawyer found the evidence hidden by the police and set them free. Carole Richardson was 17 years old when she was arrested she left the prison with 32 years, the best years of her life were lost. But the Governmemnt gave them a pardon  They were not declared innocent, only forgiven by Her Gracious Majesty. No Police officer has been convicted for this crime, and today Tony Blair asks excuses for a terrible mistake against 7 little persons from a little plae called Ireland.

This were the fantasy 70's!!!

All this cases were kept in the memory of a person (myself) who was a child and later a teen ager in the 70's, so I just pointed that we didn't lived in the Paradise as Prog O Matic wrote carelesly.

If this guy would have sanswered, sorry, I don't know what it happened around the world, or simply I can only worry about my country it would be ok, I would have never answered him because there's noo point. But this guy answers with almost an insult replies:

Prog O Matic answered:

Quote The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,

Then I answered strongly, I probably lost my temper, but I took this as an insult, and any sensible person will understand how I felt.

The memory of all this INNOCENT marthyrs was being insulted, minimized as if this men and women were nothing but numbers in little places.

I believe it's a shame. I'm passionate with my arguments and sometimes I feel I go too far like Don Quixote fighting against wind mills, but in this case, I don't regret anything I said, only a savage with no culture or sensibility (I always thought we Progheads have a special sensibility) can say such aberrations.

Sorry if I offenden someone or bored some members, but for me human rights and even animal rights are delicate issues, live must be preserved as a wonderful thing that God, nature or evolution gave us.

Somebody said that when a person is killed in any part of the world, the sholw humanity is being attacked, and i believe it's correct

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 16:21

^^^^^^

I van, nobody doubts here for one second that you felt staightin your boots and actually were self-righteous with all the good reasons that may come to you and were quite obvious to most of us (even him most likely , but probably being publically humiliated, he chose to go on................

But I must agree with Syzygy that you were a little harsh in your initial reactions , but clearly that troll statrted again after I thought I had coooled him down.

I mean from what I read he was simply thinking that the world was a saferplace in the 70's and this is the way most older people feel. My grandparents could not actually believe the everyday violence in which people surrounded themselves. I even think that one of them was almost happy to leave this planet and the state it was in.

Now again you show us that you must be a real killer in court cases ( I think your opponents must hiding behind the judge for protection when you show such verve),

Remind me to hire you rather than being my foe if I ever get caught speeding on the Arequipa streets.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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