Steven Wilson - Economies of Scale

richardh wrote: There is no music objectivity. Its not a thing.

I have often seen that statement here, and I often have provided counter-arguments.  Maybe I'm being too literal and maybe the context was missed, but I have seen this claim so many times without an argument to support it.  I argue that one can be objective within frameworks of analyses, within music theory.  If you just mean if it's good or bad, well that tends to be subjective, but one still definitionally judge the goodness or badness depending on certain criteria.  One's enjoyment is subjective but there are objective qualities assigned to music (one might argue that there was subjectivity in determining those qualities).

One example I like to give on the "better" front is a replication challenge and on the performance level more generally.  Two pianists are presented with, say,  Liszt's Piano Sonata in B Minor.  The better one is set to be the one that performs most accurately according to the sheet music.  One is an acclaimed concert pianist, the other is a three year old who has only just started playing the piano.  The concert pianist gives a note perfect performance, whereas the three old bangs the keys a bit.  The mother of the three year old may enjoy her child's performance more, and it may be a good attempt considering the player, but the concert pianist is objectively better within the context of the challenge.  So I think it does depend on the context and criteria.  I like to consider if I can what the composer and player was trying to achieve, and was it successful from that standpoint.  Clearly some are more skilled than others, much as some surgeons are better at performing heart surgeries than others.

What I find interesting is that we all "hear" and react to music differently because we all have physiological and psychological differences and so the experience is subjective.  That does not mean that there is nothing quantifiably objective to music, say given the way we use terms for music and what criteria we assign to kinds of music.

Again, I did not reads through the comments, but this music is all subjective is often claimed without justification and without much context.  I guess it depends what you mean.  From the perspective of music theory I would say not so much, but as soundwaves that have to be interpreted by a brain, it is subjective.

I tend to say that music appreciation is subjective rather than music itself.

Sorry do not accept this way of looking at things because its simply not practical or workable. I doubt very much that Robert Wyatt was thinking about music theory when he created Rock Bottom. The bottom line (no pun intended) is that this is a prog site and most prog rock has to be good in itself , there is a general expectation of that. I've listened to tons of prog and literally never heard anything that was badly written or played, only stuff that was either weak on ideas or just so weird that I don't get it. Perhaps I don't like the production or it can come across as amateurish but I realised a long time ago that even this doesnt matter if there is something there I like. It can be the raw emotion or something in the lyrics that I connect with. Other people could easily write off something like IQ's The Wake for the reasons stated. 'Genesis on a Walkman' was one scathing comment back in the day that I read in a music magazine. Strange that after a year it became my favourite album and had great meaning to me. That is the beauty of music in a nutshell.

Of course bands/artists can easily veer off in directions that tend to take them away from expectation but its quite possible to do this without it being bad. Maybe lack of ideas is a problem sometimes and then what we are talking about is that the music ceases to be within our genre and becomes 'pop'. Still doesnt mean its bad objectively speaking.

I'm not really trying to defend him (actually think he's a bit of a bell end but then I think that about Fripp and Waters as well tbh) and realise that I am being a bit 'thought police' in my comment (wouldnt call it racism as such), but also I got the impression that you were not sure yourself about your own comments and so I just answered your question. For sure I can't imagine what it's like to live in your country and we in the west tend to take our freedoms and privileges way too much for granted. It quite annoys me actually that many here in the UK don't vote and take little interest in politics when in so many countries you have no real way to change the system or the regime you live under. Honestly I wish you the best and hope you can keep coming here and discussing prog (but preferably please with a little less of the 'wtf' type posting )

Thanks a lot. I am here and I will discuss here . PA like "home" for me. I joined PA from 2009 .