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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2016 at 11:50
I have nothing to add on what you've said Steve and I think youve said it a lot clearer than I ever could, however I would like to comment on one point:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


The real danger, though, is the nonsense being propagated by Labour MPs. Getting rid of Corbyn for being a useless sod would, I believe, play well with the country at large. However, getting rid of him for being reticent to promote the pro EU agenda would be a severe misunderstanding of the anti establishment and economic settlement feeling which is rampant in their natural supporter base (here I will decline to comment on the intelligence of voters point Dean made. I do not agree with it. I understand their feelings, and sympathise with them).
The only comment regarding intelligence I made was aimed at UKIP voters and at no one else, including anyone who voted Leave for any reason other than those solely and directly promoted by UKIP's fear-mongering demagoguery.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2016 at 11:52
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Oh...well that is crap.
Seems it's still possible though unlikely for an early election, it may  be "better" to ignore the referendum. 
As anyone who's seen me ramble on in any political discussion I am strongly in favor of the will of the people, call it "populist" if you will, I dont think I am but whatever it seems to be the current label. However, like I said if there is sincere doubt coming from enough exit-ers perhaps the referendum could be ignored without tooo much backlash?
I don't know that many Brexit supporters, I don't move in those social circles and with a couple of exceptions everyone I know voted Remain. In my impassioned rant on page 6 I mentioned "the young, the educated and the professionals", and that pretty much covers everyone I socialise with IRL or online (which is no big surprise, perm any 2 from 3 and you've described practically everyone on this site), where I live in East Hampshire we voted Remain. Those few I do know are not showing any signs of doubt and the only thing they regret is we 48%ers are just a tad pissed off with the result (but not necessarily with them) and are being very vocal in saying so. A popular meme circulating on FB is:

...which despite the sugary sentimentality has all the right sentiments but misses the point by a country mile. 

So I feel unqualified to comment on whether Brexiters are having doubts, I haven't seen it myself outside the media - unfortunately the apparent volt-face of the Brexit press is par for the course. As you may have gathered, I believe that we should abide by the decision regardless of how slim the majority was because any apparent public feeling on the subject voiced after the vote is unquantifiable. As the petition that everyone seems to think is calling for a 2nd referendum (but actually isn't) approaches 4 million signatures maybe a 2nd referendum is possible but it will need to be very carefully worded (yes/no rather than either/or).



Edited by Dean - June 28 2016 at 12:01
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2016 at 12:39
Wouldn't surprise me. American media may be trash, but seems it's not exactly great in other areas, I wouldn't be shocked if they were trying to drum up things that may not be there. Also ya know, an article citing 1 paper, or a few paper can't cover 52% of those who votedLOL So maybe it was a bit knee jerk for me to ask. 

Yeah, if we in the Western World want to stand by the ideas we so proudly, maybe arrogantly, throw at the rest of the world we gotta stand by what our fellow citizens do if it abides by the rules, no matter what we feel. 
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lazland View Drop Down
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Points: 13794 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2016 at 13:11
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I have nothing to add on what you've said Steve and I think youve said it a lot clearer than I ever could, however I would like to comment on one point:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


The real danger, though, is the nonsense being propagated by Labour MPs. Getting rid of Corbyn for being a useless sod would, I believe, play well with the country at large. However, getting rid of him for being reticent to promote the pro EU agenda would be a severe misunderstanding of the anti establishment and economic settlement feeling which is rampant in their natural supporter base (here I will decline to comment on the intelligence of voters point Dean made. I do not agree with it. I understand their feelings, and sympathise with them).

The only comment regarding intelligence I made was aimed at UKIP voters and at no one else, including anyone who voted Leave for any reason other than those solely and directly promoted by UKIP's <span style="line-height: 18.2px;">fear-mongering demagoguery.</span>


On that, there is no disagreement between us whatsoever.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2016 at 03:30
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Yeah, if we in the Western World want to stand by the ideas we so proudly, maybe arrogantly, throw at the rest of the world we gotta stand by what our fellow citizens do if it abides by the rules, no matter what we feel. 

Well, that's not going to happen because democracy is a political system and not an economic system and the the World just doesn't work like that. The economic and political reaction to Britain voting to leave the EU was/is disproportionate to what it actually means in real terms but every expert in the World said it would be bad and it was. [Brexiter Michael Gove told the common British person to ignore the experts but by then the campaign was so embroiled in lies and false-truths no one knew who to trust and who to believe so they believed what they wanted to believe and listened to what they wanted to hear.] 

So much of this was "I don't know" there should have been an "I don't know" option on the ballot paper and I'll wager what's left of the pound in my wallet that the "I don't know" option would have won this referendum with a clear majority.
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Points: 20414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2016 at 06:21
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2016 at 07:07
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Whoever the next Prime Minister is, they will either go down in history as the PM who took us out of Europe and broke up the United Kingdom or if they decide to ignore the referendum result they will be remembered as the PM who went against the will of the people. The next Tory party leader will be a sacrificial goat, the smart players are holding back and waiting to replace her (or him). 
...I never said Boris wasn't smart:

...so "told you so" Tongue
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lazland View Drop Down
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Points: 13794 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2016 at 07:56
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Whoever the next Prime Minister is, they will either go down in history as the PM who took us out of Europe and broke up the United Kingdom or if they decide to ignore the referendum result they will be remembered as the PM who went against the will of the people. The next Tory party leader will be a sacrificial goat, the smart players are holding back and waiting to replace her (or him). 


...I never said Boris wasn't smart:

...so "told you so" Tongue


Blimey......

I do so love consistency and credibility. A mere 48 hours ago, Gove was backing Johnson, and not standing. Now.....

It would appear that the blessed Vine (Gove's wife, for those of you not keeping up at the back) has well and truly shafted him, in addition to the usual marital relations with her old man.

Funny old world. My money is on Gove, but, at the moment, well, who really knows?
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2016 at 08:58
If there ever was a goat to be sent out into the desert Gove would be it.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2016 at 04:16
Those Brexiteers who are sick of being told of how they were systematically lied to by the Leave campaign may wish to skip the first 12 minutes of this - I put this here for the last 8 minutes of Prof Dougan's assessment:
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2016 at 12:35
Farage is resigning as head of UKIP?
He's spinning the whole thing as "My mission has now been achieved" 

Hilarious. TOTALLY not "oh sh*t this actually happened? Well I'm bolting so I dont actually have to deal with the fallout"LOL
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Points: 13794 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2016 at 12:41
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Farage is resigning as head of UKIP?
He's spinning the whole thing as "My mission has now been achieved" 

Hilarious. TOTALLY not "oh sh*t this actually happened? Well I'm bolting so I dont actually have to deal with the fallout"LOL


He would not have had to deal with the fallout. He is the leader of a party with one singular member of Parliament, who cannot stand the sight of him. He has no power in Britain whatsoever. He has, no matter what you think of the result, achieved his purpose in life, which was to influence the result of the referendum.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2016 at 15:49
Was thinking more the backlash that may come IF (if not saying it will) things don't go very well for the UK in the short run. 
But hey if it's that simple for him...pretty sad. Actually achieved tearing down the wall, then bolts, not having to take part in dealing with the winter storm that blows in as your left without a wall? Wonderful dudeLOL
Would hope he'd at least want to have some say/involvement in the actual exit he wanted so bad, but just like Trump seems his populism was mainly self serving and phony. If things go sh*t for a bit due to the exit, he can just sit back and say "Well  I did all I wanted, good luck" 
If something happens, (recession or domestic terror attack) that gets us Trump, sadly we'll be stuck with him as he can't just run away..but guess at least he'd have to deal with the Pandora's Box he's opened instead of bolting. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2016 at 01:46
Aye, he got everything he wanted and he has nothing else to contribute. He should also stand down as an MEP but I suspect he'll happily continue drawing the MEP's £81,500 annual salary (+expenses) for the next two years. I guess it goes without saying we could be spending that money on six hospital porters or six hospital cleaners or four NHS nurses or four paramedics or four ambulance drivers or three trainee doctors or two junior doctors or one qualified doctor or one specialist consultant, and that really wouldn't be "a mistake".
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Points: 20414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2016 at 18:13
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2016 at 01:28
Ah, there's nothing like French humour... except German humour. French humour used to be the humour of the absurd, now it's the humour of the bleeding obvious?

Theresa May knows how to promote a good joke, she makes him Foreign Secretary. 

...she's back...
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2016 at 03:53
Okie-dokie ... Brexit ... 2 months on and where the fugawi? Thoughts of creeks flowing with effluent and missing paddles spring to mind but no one seems to question the lack of a life jackets fitted with flashing lights and a whistle you can blow to attract attention from passing supertankers or ask why people are kicking holes in the hull of our only means of creek-based transportation in this whole 'I'm leaving but you can keep the house, the kids, the dog, the cat, the tv and the car... ' scenario. Two months of frantic paddling of imaginary paddles in a leaky canoe and we've not move one nautical millimetre forward but are now slowly sinking up to our proverbial necks in the decomposing organic detritus that fills the creek while those who pushed us off the cliff scurry off to their stockbrokers... Yeah, I know creeks don't have cliffs but how else can I contrive a clumsy mass-suicide analogy by way of mixing a half-baked metaphor that introduces the fictitious plight of the lemmings verses cliff-edge dilemma into a reality that has gone so far beyond parody and satire that Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister and The Thick of It can all now be regarded as documentaries? 

For those who've failed to penetrate the unfathomable depths of my micturition extraction above (no apologies, it's hard to avoid toilet humour when the country is at risk of being flushed down the porcelain bowl) - The canoe in question is the vessel that governs these septic isles, which contrary to popular belief is not just the 330 elected representatives from the party that forms "Her Maj's duly elected Government" but all of the 1,446 Members of both Houses of Parliament who we have empowered to legislate on our behalf, including "Mrs Betty Windsor's duly elected Opposition" who at this moment in time it seems cannot even organise a party conference let alone an alcohol-based revelry in a brewery. 

The unequivocal last thing we need right now is puerile bickering and infighting but that does not mean we should roll over accept our fate without challenging those who claim to lead us. Captain May and her cohorts want to bypass Parliament to invoke Article 50, they are conniving to ditch The Human Rights Act and they are conspiring to make Britain even more of a corporate tax haven than it already is. None of these things were central to the Leave campaign, yet they are all very closely related to it otherwise they wouldn't be the three most important things that our government is attempting to sneak in under the radar ahead of all the other things that seemed oh so very important during the referendum campaign... ahead of all those oh so very important things that people have slowly come to realise cannot be changed whether they want them to be or not [despite all the (frankly) childish games of Top Trumps™ that Leavers and Remainers have been playing since 24th June - seriously guys, it is going to take decades before any one can call this a success or a failure, and even then no one can be 100% certain which of those it was]. It's starting to look like Tory and Labour Remain Campaign lost the referendum on purpose, and that's worrying to say the least because that means hidden agendas were more politically valuable than stated ones, that immigration, employment and sovereignty were smoke-screens and basic social niceties such as equality, human rights, healthcare and welfare were pawns to be sacrificed for some greater good that we've not been told about.

Why is it so imperative that Captain May follows the "will of the people" when no government has ever listened to the people before and is unlikely ever to listen to them in the future? Smart-arsed satirists are joking about how dumb the public are on the bigger questions but that's because we've been deliberately kept dumb on them by a successions of politicians, media pundits and political comedians whose only valid raison d'etre is their own existence. Mushroom management requires a lot of bovine effluent and this creek has litres of the stuff.
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