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The T 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
 Topic: French approve ban on burqas...Posted: July 13 2010 at 13:49 |
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French lawmakers have approved a ban on burqas, that piece of clothing that covers all the woman's body including her face. Polls show most people in France, Germany, Spain and others approve of a ban like this while 2 out of 3 americans oppose it. What are your views? I'm very interested in libertarian opinions...
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 13:50 |
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Here's a good take on this issue: http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=22920
Warning, long article... |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 13:50 |
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I think this is a terrible decision for many reasons.
(Teo) What is your view?
Edited by Padraic - July 13 2010 at 13:51 |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 14:03 |
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Good decision......what is a libertarian? i am not familiar with this word/
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 15:39 |
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I'd be interested in hearing the reasons too. I'm kind of torn on this though I tend to agree with the ban. It is slightly negative for religious freedom but I can't accept religious ideas that make one half of the population into second-class persons, and that forces them to hide behind a curtain. Maybe they feel freer inside the veil? Maybe. But themandate to wear it is a man-made (male-made should I say) decision, imposition on all muslim woman who wouldn't have a choice not to wear the thing (at least those in the radical exextremes of the religion) so I think this decision is healthy and a steo towards less discrimination. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 15:57 |
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I've read that many women do not feel imposed upon at all by the tradition and are actually insulted by the feminist reaction toward it.
However, I can see one reason behind the ban: Suppose a person commits a crime? Identifying her would be very hard with a covered face. However, does this mean it's illegal to wear masks in public as well? The French do celebrate Halloween, I believe.  |
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member 
Retired Joined: March 04 2008 Location: Retirement Home Status: Offline Points: 3658 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:22 |
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I think it is an animal/human instinct to demand that we should be able to see another's creature/humans face to check out if that creature/human being is displaying aggressive or friendly behavior. In short, every single one of us is always risk analyzing everything that comes across us on a street. Human faces is an important part of a risk analysis. This is our basic human instincts.......... as well as the instincts a dog and a cat lives by too. Burkas on cats or dogs will create total havoc in the animal kingdom. Hence I support this ban on all veils, burkas, closed helmets and masks worn in city streets. I became aware of this risk analysis when I lived in a terrorist ravaged city for some years. |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:31 |
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I can understand this reaction. I also feel that in some Muslim communities and countries, women are treated horribly. However, there are some women that choose to wear these garments as an expression of their religion. Also, tell me what you think will happen: do you see that this law is going to all of a sudden make the Islamic communities in France say, "Wow, they're right, our religion/culture is just completely wrong about this." Or will they really bristle about non-Muslims dictating to them what their women should wear - honestly, how do you think they will react to this? Is this really the best way to try to achieve a modicum of integration into Western society and thought, by force of law? Now that being said, because it's a full body veil I can see placing restrictions on its use; for example, it might be prudent to say that you're not allowed to drive wearing one of these, or if a police officer requests that you show your face you will need to do so. I think those are sensible restrictions; an outright ban goes too far. If a Muslim woman and law-abiding citizen wants to simply walk down the street wearing a burqa than we should not forbid that.
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008 Location: __ Status: Offline Points: 65760 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:34 |
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I've seen videos of people trying to hide their face with bags over their head while attempting to rob a store. That didn't turn out to well.  |
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thellama73
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:45 |
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I find the idea of a government telling its citizens what they can and cannot wear utterly abhorrent. Yet another reason to dislike France.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:46 |
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Before anyone gets carried away by freedom of religious expression we should remind ourselves that the burka is not required to be warn according to the koran. It was men who insisted that women wear it.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:47 |
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For me its a reason to like France. Go figure.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:49 |
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Don't get me wrong. I am no friend of Islam. But what people choose to wear is their own business, not some bureaucrat's. |
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 16310 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 16:49 |
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sh*t, and we can't even get a law passed that allows police officers to question if you're an illegal immigrant or not.
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007 Location: n/a Status: Offline Points: 8052 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 17:43 |
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Because, you know, freedom is fine but not for anyone who wants to wear a
burkha?
This is, of course, true for ALL MUSLIM WOMEN EVER, especially that one on the BBC program I saw who claimed (forced to, no doubt, by her evil husband and the patriarchal society) that she wore it out of choice as a badge of pride. While I think we should crush hypocrisy and double-standards everywhere, I think that taking away legal and by extension actual freedom to wear what you like to preserve... um... actual freedom to wear what you like is very odd indeed. (and whether the koran requires it should hardly be relevant in a secular country like, say, France) |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 18:05 |
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When said choice is not really one, when is not really free, when there's no "liberty" (to use the right word) for one half of the population, I applaud the bureaucrat's action. Many islamic women probably choose to wear that sh*t out of religious pride, maybe. But what about the other big (probably higher) percentage of islamic women who are forced to hide only because men said it so? Where's the liberty? This makes it equal for all of them. You can't wear it whether you want it or not. Problem solved. Who is to say if the very religious choice was any free? Did these women freely choose to be muslim? Let's go one step forward in all-around liberty then... people should have a choicer over what religion they follow... For many of these women born in muslim countries (not in France) did that choice ever exist?? Just another reason to admire France.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 18:28 |
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Actions like this are disgusting. How do you make people free by restricting what they can do T? Although I would disagree that a majority of Islamic women dislike the burqas, you argument for outlawing them seems to be that the women do not wish to participate in this religious conviction, but still do so. If the women wear burqas out of threat of force if they chose otherwise, does this law make them any more free? The proper course of action is to ensure that they, and everyone, are free from coercion. In your analysis you're only looking at one group: those that do not wish to wear burqas but are forced to. Not only does this law only ostensibly help them, but you completely ignore those who wish to wear it. What about their rights? Did you make the decision that they are not to be considered? Further you're completely unconcerned with giving government this enormous power over the lives of its citizens without any consideration for how that power may be used a week later in a circumstance that doesn't benefit you and your opinions. [Not trying to speak for llama. The questions seemed general and not directly posed to him.] |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 18:59 |
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As usual, I would (hopelessly) hope that people would step back and ask the significance of Muslim dress in the first place, rather than make glib assumptions that taking Western culture for granted has granted us.
Here's an article on the subject by a Jewish professor: http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=5886 Also, from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html An excerpt from the latter: When asked what they resented most about their own societies, a majority of Muslim women polled said that a lack of unity among Muslim nations, violent extremism, and political and economic corruption were their main concerns. The hijab, or head scarf, and burqa, the garment covering face and body, seen by some Westerners as tools of oppression, were never mentioned in the women's answers to the open-ended questions, the poll analysts said. And The most frequent response to the question, "What do you admire least about the West?" was the general perception of moral decay, promiscuity and pornography that pollsters called the "Hollywood image" that is regarded as degrading to women. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:03 |
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I think people understand that, besides the most egocentric of us Westerners. The motivation behind the law is xenophobia not any sort of noble goal of "liberating" Muslim women.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - July 13 2010 at 19:03 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007 Location: SanDiegoTijuana Status: Offline Points: 4373 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:07 |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm
You can be modest without wearing a burqa, |
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French approve ban on burqas...
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Padraic wrote: