Vague description of "Crossover Prog"

I've had a feeling that this website's decription of the "Crosover Prog" category for a long time has been pretty vague and perhaps it's outdated at this point.

"Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk."

Here's the first problem. If the description states that the music is 100% progressive, but then hints that a certain very important pillar of the prog rock genre, extended composisions is likely to be dropped by the Crossover Prog bands, wouldn't that make this genre less progressive rock esque? Say, 75% ? :P

"Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication, sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is often on a par with established Prog acts"

So.... the Crossover Prog acts, by definition are excluded from the parthenon of "established prog acts"? Which ones? How established? Moody Blues is not one of them? Do we only count the 70's formations? That is confusing.

"Much like their kin in the established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form."

So at this point, what they're saying is, that the criteria which distinguish Established Prog™ from Crossover Prog™ is the long compositions. I can find dozens of Crossover Prog PA entries that don't follow that fricking rule. Phideaux, anybody?

"The defining characteristics of Crossover Prog are a pop music influence that is largely vacant in typical prog rock. Songs tend toward shorter, more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern"

This is a very biased and shoehorned in statement. I mean, take a look at Roundabout by Yes. It's a catchy and short "pop inspired" song, but it is widely considered part of the "real deal prog" category by pretty much every fan of this genre and I've never seen anyone here even mention it in the same sentence as Crossover Prog™.

"The harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic structures may be more easily digested in Crossover while not losing the musical integrity that a prog listener expects."

Yes and no. I'm not sure what to think of the above statement. In my opinion, that is simply a characteristic of good songwriting.

"Whereas Prog Related bands are generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly progressive with elements of popular music."

Alright. This statement is probably just an artifact of the old Progarchives at this point, so I'd better ignore it.

"The most representative examples for this genre include The MOODY BLUES, SUPERTRAMP, DREDG, CINEMA SHOW, RADIOHEAD."

I'm also not really fond of putting an obscure Brazilian band, that arguably displays more "neo-prog" stylistic traits than those of "crossover prog", as one of the 'most representative examples'

I'd like to know what you think, guys.

There seem to be some totally made up PA subgenres that erm crossover each other, It's all become a bit pythonesque to me. Eclectic and Crossover are mainly for bands that don't easily fit into Symphonic or RIO/Avant/Experimental/Tech Metal etc somehow, and then there is the largely redundant Neo Prog category that should be shut down and could easily be merged with Crossover. IMO. 

Atavachron wrote: richardh wrote: Sorry but it does seem a thinly veiled excuse for downgrading prog that is not adventurous enough for some.  Yes, to the extent that Harry Potter is a thinly veiled excuse for downgrading fantasy that is not adult enough for some.

Plus, the bands that landed in Crossover when the subgenre was established were already on PA, that's one of the reasons it was initiated.   Prog bands with a popular slant have always existed, and decisions had to be made.   Is Journey a 'crossover band'... I don't know, not my decision at that point.   But it was decided they weren't a 'heavy prog' band as they never released a full prog album.   They ended up in Prog Related.   So what?   Actions have to be taken, decisions must be made.

Bertrand Russell said once that any term dealing with the real world has to be necessarily vague, so, Crossover just came to join the party. Is there a problem with that we need to deal with? I'd say no, since the real problem should be, rather than which genre defines an artist, which genre (if any) claims the artist for him/herself. This wouldn't be less vague, but at least would do justice to his/her own vision.

^ True! You catch me, but some of them have something to say about it, and even when somebody keeps quiet, his/her silence doesn't mean we are licensed to tag him/her as we please.

^ Nice attitude!

Does anybody also feel like the "Crossover Prog" label largely overlaps with "Neo-Prog"? What I mean by that is, 99% if not all non-British Neo-Prog bands might as well be classified as Crossover Prog.

yam yam wrote: Cristi wrote: If any artist takes offense at a genre tag, we'll tag them as they want to.  Ally Carter of the Emerald Dawn has tried at least three times to get his band shifted from Neo to Symphonic on PA. Firstly in January 2019, then again in April 2021, and he had a third attempt in October 2023. The band is still in Neo though lol! Some musicians really don't like being associated with that sub for some unknown (to me at least) reason.

Everything from the fonts to the cover art screams Neo-Prog. But I don't know, I never heard them - or heard of them. I do know that the artists themselves aren't always the best at dissecting - or even understanding their own art. Not when we're comparing, and talking about it in a greater context.

yam yam wrote: Cristi wrote: If any artist takes offense at a genre tag, we'll tag them as they want to.  Ally Carter of the Emerald Dawn has tried at least three times to get his band shifted from Neo to Symphonic on PA. Firstly in January 2019, then again in April 2021, and he had a third attempt in October 2023. The band is still in Neo though lol! Some musicians really don't like being associated with that sub for some unknown (to me at least) reason.