Vague description of "Crossover Prog"
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134120
Printed Date: February 21 2025 at 06:31
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Topic: Vague description of "Crossover Prog"
Posted By: Hrychu
Subject: Vague description of "Crossover Prog"
Date Posted: December 28 2024 at 18:20
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I've had a feeling that this website's decription of the "Crosover Prog" category for a long time has been pretty vague and perhaps it's outdated at this point. "Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk." Here's the first problem. If the description states that the music is 100% progressive, but then hints that a certain very important pillar of the prog rock genre, extended composisions is likely to be dropped by the Crossover Prog bands, wouldn't that make this genre less progressive rock esque? Say, 75% ? :P "Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication, sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is often on a par with established Prog acts" So.... the Crossover Prog acts, by definition are excluded from the parthenon of "established prog acts"? Which ones? How established? Moody Blues is not one of them? Do we only count the 70's formations? That is confusing. "Much like their kin in the established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form." So at this point, what they're saying is, that the criteria which distinguish Established Prog™ from Crossover Prog™ is the long compositions. I can find dozens of Crossover Prog PA entries that don't follow that fricking rule. Phideaux, anybody? "The defining characteristics of Crossover Prog are a pop music influence that is largely vacant in typical prog rock. Songs tend toward shorter, more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern" This is a very biased and shoehorned in statement. I mean, take a look at Roundabout by Yes. It's a catchy and short "pop inspired" song, but it is widely considered part of the "real deal prog" category by pretty much every fan of this genre and I've never seen anyone here even mention it in the same sentence as Crossover Prog™. "The harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic structures may be more easily digested in Crossover while not losing the musical integrity that a prog listener expects." Yes and no. I'm not sure what to think of the above statement. In my opinion, that is simply a characteristic of good songwriting. "Whereas Prog Related bands are generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly progressive with elements of popular music." Alright. This statement is probably just an artifact of the old Progarchives at this point, so I'd better ignore it. "The most representative examples for this genre include The MOODY BLUES, SUPERTRAMP, DREDG, CINEMA SHOW, RADIOHEAD." I'm also not really fond of putting an http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=499" rel="nofollow - obscure Brazilian band , that arguably displays more "neo-prog" stylistic traits than those of "crossover prog", as one of the 'most representative examples' I'd like to know what you think, guys. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Replies:
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: December 28 2024 at 21:10
| You might find this https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114876#5576650" rel="nofollow - thread , where I asked about the origins of the term, to be informative. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 00:42
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There seem to be some totally made up PA subgenres that erm crossover each other, It's all become a bit pythonesque to me. Eclectic and Crossover are mainly for bands that don't easily fit into Symphonic or RIO/Avant/Experimental/Tech Metal etc somehow, and then there is the largely redundant Neo Prog category that should be shut down and could easily be merged with Crossover. IMO. On the subject of Crossover there has never been such a thing. No one outside the prog community cares about such bands. It seems to suggest that they are able to achieve mainstream success by putting on the prog brakes and applying more melody and doing shorter songs. Yep that works. I hear prog all over mainstream radio now as a result lol. Sorry but it does seem a thinly veiled excuse for downgrading prog that is not adventurous enough for some.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 01:07
Yes, to the extent that Harry Potter is a thinly veiled excuse for downgrading fantasy that is not adult enough for some. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
richardh wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 02:29
if memory serves, one of the potential name for this category at the time of foundation was progressive pop ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 02:36
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"Songs tend toward shorter, more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern". This is true, although the occasional long song exist as well. In recent years or at least the years I've been with the team, I've listened to quite a few bands that others call alternative prog, bands that mix genres but are too light for eclectic  , some Pink Floyd and Gilmour worship, basically bands and artists that "reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern". |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 02:42
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Plus, the bands that landed in Crossover when the subgenre was established were already on PA, that's one of the reasons it was initiated. Prog bands with a popular slant have always existed, and decisions had to be made. Is Journey a 'crossover band'... I don't know, not my decision at that point. But it was decided they weren't a 'heavy prog' band as they never released a full prog album. They ended up in Prog Related. So what? Actions have to be taken, decisions must be made. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 02:54
True, early on there was only the "art-rock" genre tag. But that is a wide umbrella as well. I think being divided 3 ways was a good idea, some may complain about the execution, fine, but still a good idea. It works for me at least. If i see something tagged as eclectic prog, I know the kind of sound i will be listening to. same for the other to, heavy-prog or crossover. In some situations (evaluations), bands not eclectic enough or experimental enough for eclectic prog, ended up in crossover. I don't have problem with that.
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 06:39
| Bertrand Russell said once that any term dealing with the real world has to be necessarily vague, so, Crossover just came to join the party. Is there a problem with that we need to deal with? I'd say no, since the real problem should be, rather than which genre defines an artist, which genre (if any) claims the artist for him/herself. This wouldn't be less vague, but at least would do justice to his/her own vision. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 06:43
Most artists don't care about that.
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 07:11
^ True! You catch me, but some of them have something to say about it, and even when somebody keeps quiet, his/her silence doesn't mean we are licensed to tag him/her as we please. 
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 07:14
If any artist takes offense at a genre tag, we'll tag them as they want to.
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 07:24
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^ Nice attitude!
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:01
Ally Carter of the https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9178" rel="nofollow - Emerald Dawn has tried at least three times to get his band shifted from Neo to Symphonic on PA. Firstly in https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33765&PID=5626878#5626878" rel="nofollow - January 2019 , then again in https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33765&PID=5880461#5880461" rel="nofollow - April 2021 , and he had a third attempt in https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33765&PID=6103671#6103671" rel="nofollow - October 2023 . The band is still in Neo though lol! Some musicians really don't like being associated with that sub for some unknown (to me at least) reason.
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:06
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Does anybody also feel like the "Crossover Prog" label largely overlaps with "Neo-Prog"? What I mean by that is, 99% if not all non-British Neo-Prog bands might as well be classified as Crossover Prog. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:09
Is it that the neo-team does not want to do it or is it that they haven't had the time to do it yet?
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:27
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:38
I disagree. Neo-prog has a specific sound, rooted in symphonic prog (Genesis, Camel). Non-British neo-prog is still neo-prog. One common point in both genres, guitarists worship the likes of Gilmour and Latimer. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:40
She should feel good that their albums have been well received and are rated well.
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:44
Several collabs from various teams have since listened to the band's music again, and they just don't agree that Symphonic is the right place for them, with Neo still being considered the more appropriate sub of the two. Eclectic was also mooted as a third possibility though, despite it being the Symphonic team who had evaluated the band in the first instance, and who subsequently passed the suggestion over to Neo.
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 10:48
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 11:02
Oh, my bad. Here is where multiple tags would have solved the issue. Symphonic prog would not be wrong for the band either.
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 11:19
).
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 11:23
I know it's not gonna happen, but it would have been cool if we had that. This "mistake" was fixed on the two sister sites.
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 11:55
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 12:02
And yet it's still PA that is the more popular and interactive one.
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 12:31
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^ Indeed, though I guess that's simply because it had a significant head start over the other two sites, and at around 2010/2011 time was probably somewhere near its peak in terms of its overall relevance. Several members have stated their opinion that PA has gradually gone downhill over recent times, but that's true of every 'empire' that ever existed, so I guess was inevitable really. Nevertheless, I do think it will take quite some time yet for the other two sites to reach a similar level of popularity to PA - especially when quite a fair number of the artists that they feature can also be found here. Interestingly, MMA tags Rush as "Hard Rock / Non-Metal", with no 'Progressive' tag included whatsoever, but something that's being discussed in https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134099" rel="nofollow - another forum thread on here...even though the guy who started it was suspended a few hour later lol!
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 13:07
------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 14:17
You are not completely wrong I guess. What about the neo-prog of Poland? Was that a movement or just Polish artists doing the sound of neo-prog?
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 14:53
No. Neo Prog is just that, Neo Prog, a post-Symphonic rock style anchored by acts such as Marillion. Crossover Prog is a quite different and somewhat more ambiguous, difficult subgenre--- Radiohead, Oldfield, P> Gabriel, Kate Bush, Gazpacho, and certain ex-Prog/Psych solo artists as Rick Wright. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: December 29 2024 at 15:13
As for the 90s+ Neo Prog bands, they're either offshoots of Collage/Satellite, bands inspired by Collage/Satellite or just prog rock bands without any clear intention of aiming for any Neo-Prog vibe. Marillion were HUGE in late 80's and early 90's Poland, and the drummer Wojciech Szadkowski (of Collage, Satellite and Peter Pan) is a hardcore Marillion fan. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 30 2024 at 01:22
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mmmmhhh!!!!... Not aware of 80's Polish prog (I've researched the70's some 15/20 years ago), but 90's neo-prog is/was certainly an essential part of what I view Neo-prog on PA and elsewhere, just like 80/90's's UK and 80/90's japanese bands were. The Netherlands also participated to the movement during the 90's as well. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: December 30 2024 at 22:31
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Well, it should be noted that in the 90's Polish Neo-Prog was indeed more Marillion-centric. After all, the effect of sudden attraction to Fish era Marillon after Tomasz Beksiński had introduced said band to the general public on his radio show (reminder: it was during the Martial Law and before the advent of world wide web) was still strong. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |