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What is happening in Jerusalem?

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ssmarcus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 04:30
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


If you live in Israel, you will know that it is virtually impossible for Palestinians to be licensed to build new houses in the Jerusalem area, on the contrary, licenses are easily given to Jews... 


I do live in Israel, and I do know that it is virtually impossible for anybody to build and get licenses for ANYTHING let alone building permits. Israel's state bureaucracy is a web of rules and regulations with little incentive on the part of the bearcats to keep the machine greased. It has resulted in lower productivity in domestic industry, a relatively high cost of living, corruption (because breaking the rules is sometimes the only way to do business), and, in this case, its had  PR and diplomatic repercussion as well. 

Couple the above difficulties with much of the Arab populations cultural resistance to doing things by the book and you will end up with a situation where a great deal of Arab lead building projects throughout Israel (not just Jerusalem, this applies to the Negev and up north as well) are formally illegal. Politically savvy activists with questionable moral priorities (i.e. prioritizing settlement over civil culture) have indeed exploited that gap to increase Jewish building in politically important areas. 

As unfortunate as the above situation is, it is not unique to Israel. All countries suffer from stiff bureaucracies in one form or another and there are always interest groups (in this case the public sector unions) that get dig in at the expense of the greater good. 

And yet here we are discussing this purely domestic run of the mill political and judicial matter on forum about progressive rock music. 

Of course, I already know you don't think Jerusalem, in its entirety, falls under the jurisdiction of the state of Israel. But honestly, that's your problem. At every point in history when Jews have been allowed to live in Jerusalem and freely practice their religion, they have been the majority. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab state, let alone a Palestinian one, and it has never stopped being the capital of the Jews. Jerusalem has been formally annexed and all residents are fully entitled to citizenship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 04:31
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:


Let's be very clear hear: the overwhelming majority of all Jews all over the held then, as they do now, that the area "from the river to the sea" is the historic homeland of the Jewish people meant to be the home of our own independent state. The debate about Zionism for MOST Jews (at that time) was a debate about timing and tactics. Secularist Jews, not believing in divine mandates, saw the modern era as an opportunity to realize this vision using "earthly" means like politics, land purchases, immigration, and, when necessary, self-defense. Religious objectors felt that this violated god's plan at that particular moment. It wasn't a repudiation of the centrality of Israel, it was a repudiation of angering the gentiles in the process and potentially showing lack of faith in god. 


Let me be blunt here since you continue to remain in denial.  In that case, stop asking the US for help, ask Netanyahu to send back the dollars Biden has sent you.  You now have the holy land to yourselves so take on the extremists head on all by yourselves.  I am sure your chosen God will take good care of you all and you won't need US or UN or anyone's intervention in the same.  

You cannot make your religious claims a human rights issue, sorry. 


Edited by rogerthat - May 20 2021 at 04:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 04:49
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

@ssmarcus: You can see from my postings that I try to understand the Israeli side and for sure I think they should live there and be able to run and defend their own state. However I don't think there is any sacred right for anyone to have a state in some place just because their ancestors had one there 2000 years ago. If it were like that, the map of the world would look very, very different in many places. For sure there is a right of the Israeli people of now to have their country and there are some good reasons to have it about where it is, but I don't think it holds much water to claim anything for any present person based on what happened 2000 years ago.

I'm not aware of a statute of limitations on the right to self-determination. If god forbid, the French expelled the Italians and the Italian peninsula was then re-inhabitted by Germans, at what point would the Italians have to give up their right to return? And what if those Germans decided they wanted to declare their own state on that land? Why should they get it? Dont they already have Germany as their place for exercising self-determination? And how exactly should the Italians mount their return doing so will stoke the ire of the world thereby further exacerbating their exile and oppression? 

The truth of the matter is, the reason this case is so peculiar is because there really are no historical precedents for this. In reality,  those Italians in my example will eventually assimilate into the lands they were exiled to therefore, by default, giving up their claim just like every other conquered, exiled, enslaved, repressed, forcibly converted people through out history. But we Jews have managed to maintain our culture, our religion, our language, our history, basically our entire sense of self and connectedness to our country and peoplehood despite the exile. 

We've never relinquished our right to our home. Despite our return, the Arabs living there have every right to continue to live there in peace and security. I will even admit (at the expense of opening up my position to attacks) that how we treat the minorities in our territory is the ultimate test of our moral character as a people. I fully embrace that idea and live by it. But if those Arabs are unwilling to share or recognize our historic rights, then what does that say about their moral character as a people?  


Edited by ssmarcus - May 20 2021 at 04:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 04:59
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


Let me be blunt here since you continue to remain in denial.  In that case, stop asking the US for help, ask Netanyahu to send back the dollars Biden has sent you.  You now have the holy land to yourselves so take on the extremists head on all by yourselves.  I am sure your chosen God will take good care of you all and you won't need US or UN or anyone's intervention in the same.  

You cannot make your religious claims a human rights issue, sorry. 

At what point did I ever claim my rights were based in religion? I am specifically pointing out that it is the RELIGIOUS jews that objected to Zionism in a certain sense of the word and that it was the secular ones that saw it is a viable way forward. Are you even reading these posts or just reacting childishly because someone write the the word god and spoke about religion? 

As far the US help is concnered, I WISH we woulnd't take take the American hooker money. In the 50's, when Germany decided to pay reparations to Israel over the Holocaust, Menachem Begin and his supporters basically rioted over Israel's acceptance of the money. I was not alive then, but had I been, I would burned down the Knesset myself. 

You specifically, as opposed to some of the other writers here, have consistently posted historical falsehoods (that are easily cleared up in a quick google search) and misreads of the comments you are replying to. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:13
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


Let me be blunt here since you continue to remain in denial.  In that case, stop asking the US for help, ask Netanyahu to send back the dollars Biden has sent you.  You now have the holy land to yourselves so take on the extremists head on all by yourselves.  I am sure your chosen God will take good care of you all and you won't need US or UN or anyone's intervention in the same.  

You cannot make your religious claims a human rights issue, sorry. 

At what point did I ever claim my rights were based in religion? I am specifically pointing out that it is the RELIGIOUS jews that objected to Zionism in a certain sense of the word and that it was the secular ones that saw it is a viable way forward. Are you even reading these posts or just reacting childishly because someone write the the word god and spoke about religion? 

As far the US help is concnered, I WISH we woulnd't take take the American hooker money. In the 50's, when Germany decided to pay reparations to Israel over the Holocaust, Menachem Begin and his supporters basically rioted over Israel's acceptance of the money. I was not alive then, but had I been, I would burned down the Knesset myself. 

You specifically, as opposed to some of the other writers here, have consistently posted historical falsehoods (that are easily cleared up in a quick google search) and misreads of the comments you are replying to. 

If "the area "from the river to the sea" is the historic homeland of the Jewish people" is not a religious claim, what is it then?  If you say it is a mere cultural claim, how does your claim supersede that of the Arabs who had already settled there?  Why should the international community then specifically look into the claims of Jews?  No, that is not the reason.  The reason has everything to do with WW2 and given that you go to great lengths to deny it, you don't have a leg to stand on when you accuse me of posting historical falsehoods.  Nobody would give a sh*t about what Israelis want if it was purely about some nostalgic longing to return to your 'true homeland' (whatever that means).  The reason it became a vexed issue had everything to do with Europe becoming inhospitable for Jews.  Otherwise why should others have anything to do with the quarrels between Jews and Arabs, how does it matter in the slightest to us? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

[/QUOTE]

If "the area "from the river to the sea" is the historic homeland of the Jewish people" is not a religious claim, what is it then? 
[/QUOTE]

It is a two part empirical claim about the relationship between the Jewish people and that area some people here call Palestine: 
  1. The Jewish people, a group of people with shared language, practices, myths, values, and defining historical events (i.e., the characteristics of any well defined nation or people) originated in this area. 
  2. Despite being forcibly evicted from the area and prevented from returning, the Jews have never relinquished the belief that this area is where they are supposed to be living and exercising their right to self determination. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:28
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

It is a two part empirical claim about the relationship between the Jewish people and that area some people here call Palestine: 
  1. The Jewish people, a group of people with shared language, practices, myths, values, and defining historical events (i.e., the characteristics of any well defined nation or people) originated in this area. 
  2. Despite being forcibly evicted from the area and prevented from returning, the Jews have never relinquished the belief that this area is where they are supposed to be living and exercising their right to self determination. 


And that the eviction happened centuries ago has a bearing on the issue, whether you like it or not.  Lewian gave you a good explanation as to why.  As I said, you remain in denial or rather, you are so convinced about the narrative you hold dear that we are basically talking past you.  We are able to visualize why such a claim would be immensely problematic if it were applied universally.  You either can't or you do not care.  That kind of conviction somehow sounds not wholly different from sharia to me, if I may.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:35
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  Why should the international community then specifically look into the claims of Jews?  No, that is not the reason.  The reason has everything to do with WW2 and given that you go to great lengths to deny it, you don't have a leg to stand on when you accuse me of posting historical falsehoods. 

Once again  I am amazed at how willing you are to advertise your illiteracy on the internet. I take it you've heard of the Balfour Declaration.  You know, the statement made by the british imperial government in support of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine IN 1917 BEFORE WW2(!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Oh wait, what's this. Its the Peel commission from 1937, another example of international community involvement ALSO BEFORE WW2: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission

Im done answering you. You are trying to fight WAY out of your weight class here. I really suggest you take a break, read the thread, and a learn something. 


Edited by ssmarcus - May 20 2021 at 05:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:40
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  Why should the international community then specifically look into the claims of Jews?  No, that is not the reason.  The reason has everything to do with WW2 and given that you go to great lengths to deny it, you don't have a leg to stand on when you accuse me of posting historical falsehoods. 

Once again  I am amazed at how willing you are to advertise your illiteracy on the internet. I take it you've heard of the Balfour Declaration.  You know, the statement made by the british imperial government in support of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine IN 1917 BEFORE WW2(!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Oh wait, what's this. Its the Peel commission from 1937, another example of international community involvement ALSO BEFORE WW2: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission

Im done answering you. You are trying to fight WAY out of your weight class here. I really suggest you take a break, read the thread, and a learn something.

If you are so convinced that WW2 had nothing to do with Israel, why would it take until well after the war to establish Israel? If the rationale was really so obvious as you wish to believe, you'd have an Israel state before 1930 and the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany easily averted. 


Edited by rogerthat - May 20 2021 at 05:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:42
The Canaanites called. They want their country back. The Phoenicians agree.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:43
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Canaanites called. They want their country back. The Phoenicians agree.

I 'learnt something indeed', to channel ssmarcus' condescension.  I learnt there is a side to Israel I didn't want to see.  And now that I have, I will never be able to unsee it. Gosh!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:45
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


If you are so convinced that WW2 had nothing to do with Israel, why would it take until well after the war to establish Israel? 

If my wife giving birth to our 3rd child has nothing to do with this conversation, why will it happen after this conversation is over? What are you on mate? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Canaanites called. They want their country back. The Phoenicians agree.

If you know any Baal, Ishtar or any Jebbusite El Elyon worshippers who still speak the language, even if only ritualistically, celebrate their festivals, even if only culturually, formed cohesive communities throught the diaspora for the last 3000 years celebrating their Jebbusite culture and beliefs, then by all means. Have them give me a call! Im sure we can find a place for them. 

In any case, your need to point to no longer existent peoples further demonstrates the uniqueness of Jewish history in this regard. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:56
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


If you are so convinced that WW2 had nothing to do with Israel, why would it take until well after the war to establish Israel? 

If my wife giving birth to our 3rd child has nothing to do with this conversation, why will it happen after this conversation is over? What are you on mate? 

This is such a complete non sequitur I will simply leave it be. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 05:57
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Canaanites called. They want their country back. The Phoenicians agree.

If you know any Baal, Ishtar or any Jebbusite El Elyon worshippers who still speak the language, even if only ritualistically, celebrate their festivals, even if only culturually, formed cohesive communities throught the diaspora for the last 3000 years celebrating their Jebbusite culture and beliefs, then by all means. Have them give me a call! Im sure we can find a place for them. 

In any case, your need to point to no longer existent peoples further demonstrates the uniqueness of Jewish history in this regard. 

The Canaanites were annihilated by the Israelites. A biblical case of genocide. But Yahweh said it was okay.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 06:00
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


The Canaanites were annihilated by the Israelites. A biblical case of genocide. But Yahweh said it was okay.

As Bibi would say, but, but, that was only assertion of Jewish identity.  The only genocide is that which has been committed by the Arabs.


Edited by rogerthat - May 20 2021 at 06:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 06:32
Man you guys are really scraping at the bottom of the barrel now. Have fun with that. I've done my part. Catch you guys the next time we have one of these flare ups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 06:39
@Lewian



Is it visible?

Try to watch the maps and read about the houses demolishing



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A0XA7JOfpc0ZDrJCHPlMZiP-TnkY4dGY/view






Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 20 2021 at 08:22
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 07:08
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Man you guys are really scraping at the bottom of the barrel now. Have fun with that. I've done my part. Catch you guys the next time we have one of these flare ups.

Your indignation is humorous. You made the statement:

"If you know any Baal, Ishtar or any Jebbusite El Elyon worshippers who still speak the language, even if only ritualistically, celebrate their festivals, even if only culturually, formed cohesive communities throught the diaspora for the last 3000 years celebrating their Jebbusite culture and beliefs, then by all means. Have them give me a call! Im sure we can find a place for them."

....thus indicating a uniqueness of the Jewish religion and claims for the land, even after 3000 years of Diaspora. I merely pointed out the irony that the Canaanites never got to worship their fairytale deities because the Israelites were allegedly commanded by their fairytale deity to commit genocide and wipe said Canaanites out. 
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 07:49
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Man you guys are really scraping at the bottom of the barrel now. Have fun with that. I've done my part. Catch you guys the next time we have one of these flare ups.
Spoken like someone who doesn't have a clue. So, exit stage left.

Edited by SteveG - May 20 2021 at 07:52
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