What is happening in Jerusalem?
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Topic: What is happening in Jerusalem?
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Subject: What is happening in Jerusalem?
Date Posted: May 12 2021 at 18:59
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What is happening in Jerusalem? This is the analysis of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD), founded by the American-born pacifist Jew Jeff Halper, who has been involved in rebuilding Palestinian homes for many years with a nonviolent group of people who unite Jews and Palestinians. 11th May 2021 ICAHD CALLS FOR THE IMMEDIATE END TO ALL HOUSE DEMOLITIONS, EVICTIONS AND DISCRIMINATORY PLANNING. LET OUR VOICES BE HEARD BY THE PEOPLE AND BY GOVERNMENTS! For the past several weeks, Israel’s police and paramilitaries, together with violent settlement groups, have escalated their brutal attacks against Palestinians in Jerusalem. Specifically targeted are the residents of Sheikh Jarrah, who face imminent eviction by Israeli settlers, and Ramadan worshippers at the al-Aqsa Mosque and around the Old City. These localized attacks have further escalated into an all-out military campaign against Gaza, totally besieged since 2006 but unwilling to abandon their brethren in Jerusalem. This particular round of low-intensity warfare occurs at Ramadan, in which thousands of Muslims converge on Jerusalem. There, the Israeli police violently harass them, demonstrating total Israeli control through sheer force. Bad enough in itself, this tense period collides with the triumphalist celebrations of Israel’s Independence Day and Jerusalem Day, an official “holiday” in which thousands of religious-nationalist settlers come to assert the “Jewishness” of the city. A major component of these “celebrations” is humiliating Jerusalem’s Palestinian inhabitants by marching with large Israeli flags and drums through their Old City quarters, yelling out patriotic songs. These are not merely “clashes” between “sides” in a symmetrical “conflict” between two peoples. They are rather actions of conquest, political repression and dispossession on the part of Jewish Israelis met with defiant Palestinian reaction. Zionism, a settler colonial movement of the late 19th century, had a clear and explicit agenda: in the language of the Zionist movement, to Judaize Palestine, to turn an Arab land into a Jewish one; in short, to “cleanse” the country ethnically. At the heart of this project was displacement. Jewish settlers could only assert their exclusive claims of entitlement to the country by driving the indigenous population off the land and taking demographic as well as political control. Ethnic cleansing remains the single-minded preoccupation of modern Israel. It lies at the heart of the attacks and resistance protests in Sheikh Jarrah and the al-Aqsa mosque, as well as in the continued resistance of the people of West Bank, Gaza and even, it appears, Palestinian citizens of Israel who still find themselves displaced and without equal rights. The process of mass displacement of Palestinians is evident from the figures. During and after the 1948 Nakba – what Palestinians refer to as “the Catastrophe” and Israelis’ their “War of Independence” – the Israeli military demolished some 52,000 homes, more than 530 entire villages, towns and urban areas. Not in the heat of battle, but systematically, in order to take the land and prevent the refugees from returning. Eighty-five percent of the Palestinians living in what became Israel, 750,000 people, became refugees – now numbering seven million and still unable to return home. In the 1967 war, Israel completed its military take-over of Palestine, conquering the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, resuming the forced displacement of Palestinians. Between 1967-2021, the Israeli authorities demolished more than 55,000 homes, farm structures, businesses, community centers, schools and mosques. Thousands of homes and structures continue to be demolished inside Israel today. The Negev/Nakab Bedouin community of al-Araqib has been demolished and rebuilt by its inhabitants 186 times! In Jerusalem, ethnic cleansing takes other forms. The Israeli government has built dozens of massive new settlement/neighborhoods throughout and around East Jerusalem, isolating the Palestinian population into small and disconnected enclaves to ensure demographic and physical control. Intentionally inducing a shortage of 25,000 housing units in the Palestinian sector, the Jerusalem Municipality grants virtually no building permits for Palestinian housing, while demolishing up to 200 homes a year. Thirty thousand Palestinian homes have received demolition orders. In these “invisible” ways planning is used as a tool of displacement and Judaization. Evictions of Palestinians from their homes constitutes another form of mass displacement in Jerusalem. Well-funded settler associations, backed by the Israeli courts, police and government, are taking over established Palestinian neighborhoods: Silwan, now renamed “the City of David” by the Israelis; Sheikh Jarrah, now known officially as “Simon the Just” after an ancient rabbi; Ras el-Amud, Jabal Mukaber, the Old City itself, and others. In virtually all neighborhoods in the historic center of Jerusalem, Palestinian families face violent expulsion from their homes as settlers use their considerable funds and legal channels to dispossess them. Forced displacement, however it is done, is a crime against humanity in international law. This is the background to the violent clashes in Sheikh Jarrah, where the last Palestinian families face imminent eviction and replacement by settlers. Palestinian resistance in all its forms will not, cannot, end until Israel’s policy of displacement and ethnic cleansing ceases. As long as governments continue to support Israel no matter what, as long as Israel need not fear any significant sanctions, it will have no motivation to alter its historic goal of Judaizing Palestine, with all the violence, human rights abuses and violations of international law that entails. We the people of the world are the Palestinians' only ally. We need to make our voices heard in the corridors of power. We repeat:
ICAHD CALLS FOR THE IMMEDIATE END TO ALL HOUSE DEMOLITIONS, EVICTIONS AND DISCRIMINATORY PLANNING. LET OUR VOICES BE HEARD BY THE PEOPLE AND BY GOVERNMENTS!
For further information contact: https://icahd.org/2021/05/11/125-years-of-displacement-an-icahd-statement-on-the-israeli-assault-on-occupied-palestine/[email protected]" rel="nofollow - The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions https://icahd.org/2021/05/11/125-years-of-displacement-an-icahd-statement-on-the-israeli-assault-on-occupied-palestine/ ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Replies:
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 05:41
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Sounds like the same old bullsh*t and twisting of reality by Roger Waters and co. " in the language of the Zionist movement, to Judaize Palestine, to turn an Arab land into a Jewish one; in short, to “cleanse” the country ethnically." This is really amazing, 2000 years of dispute and this guy got it all figured out, like this case can be settled in court ruling in favour of one of the sides. Of course if your premise is this than it's easy to see what's going on in Jerusalem this way. Sadly because of people like this idiot, who posts lies and the twisting of reality these past few days palestinians have now thrown decades of coexistence in mixed cities like Jaffa and Ako by savage rampage including beating of civilians, arsoning of synagogues, houses, cars and whatever, something that had never happened here in this scale...ever. Of course Israeli civilians don't stand in silent and the situation is very bad. Israeli leaders calls their public to stop these riots while not a word from Arab leaders (in the same governmnt). P.S - Jamesbaldwin if you post something like this always try and look for the other side too, there's two sides to the story you know, and in this case there's ten. |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 05:58
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There is twisting of reality on more than one side, too. I side with Palestine. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 07:15
Yes but not in this scale. Not even close. |
nick_h_nz wrote:Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 07:27
Agreed. Which is why I side with Palestine. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 07:43
Jeff Halper, the founder of Icahd, is a Jew born in the States in 1946, and at the age of twenty he marched with Martin Luther King for the civil rights of African Americans. He is a nonviolent activist who as a young man, following a reflux of returning to his roots, decided to emigrate to Israel. He discovered with his own eyes that after 1967 a savage colonization of the occupied territories and the practice of demolishing houses in the Greater Jerusalem area began. And since then he has gradually realized that it was an ethnic cleansing, in fact East Jerusalem is already with a Jewish majority and the goal is to reduce the Palestinians to a narrow minority. Jeff Halper is an anthropologist who has been to every piece of land of the Israeli settlement area for the last 30 years, and he produces maps to explain how Palestinian land is colonized each year. He went to jail several times for defending Palestinian homes from demolition. For years he has been traveling the world showing maps of Israeli colonization (I saw him in Italy 10 years ago). In all of this, he obviously hasn't earned anything, on a personal level, he hasn't earned a dollar, and he is disliked by many Israeli Jews and most of the people who defends Israel precisely because he tells the truth he has in front of him, so I think he deserves respect, I think that he knows a lot more than you do, and so I think you said idiot to the wrong person. I advise you to write to Icahd, if you have any doubts about his claims, instead of accusing him of telling lies to someone who knows every inch of land in the greater Jerusalem area. Then the conclusions he has reached about Zionism (they are opinions), one can argue, but the facts are facts and the problem in the West (Europe and America) is that people don't want to know the truth. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 09:38
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Regardless of the current sides of this old problem, it's time for a Palestinian State and be done with it. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 10:00
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The fact that he’s been living here for years doesn’t make him right, I’ve been living in Jerusalem for all my life, you don’t know me so don’t tell me he knows better. You can find A lot of Jerusalem natives including professors and journalists who cover this dispute for their entire professional career and they disagree between them, all have valid claims about every matter and it’s up to you to form your own views but you have to get to the bottom of every side. I have a lot of criticism to the government and I even have never voted for Netanyahu but I’m fair enough to say when we were wrong. The ones who completely favour one side without having any criticism clearly like this guy they are the ones who doesn’t want to see the truth. I know that there are places where Arabs were driven out but believe me there are many places where Jews were driven out too. My problem is that every dispute turns to a valid excuse for violence and murder by the Arab side. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 10:03
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Yes, you're both war-like people that can't get along and never will, but it's time to do something that the rest of the world sees as the right thing to do. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 10:06
I hope to see that some time in my lifetime. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 10:12
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If the right amount of Western countries get on board, it can happen. But the process needs to be started. Only by countries not backing Israel financially and politically can it be possible. If not, then it's simply not possible. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 10:46
I really appreciate your fairness here, like I always do when you make a political comment. But with leaders like Netanyahu in Israel, I'm not sure a Palestinian State would be a good idea. It might result in far bloodier "power clashes". Same is in my country, where lots of Kurds wish for attaining their own country: Kurdistan. Our Erdoğan is no better than Netanyahu, so I don't think we would live in peace with a prospective Kurdistan in the short term.  BTW, I don't think "being divided" is politically a good move for my country. As the West likes to "divide and rule", you know? We, unfortunately, have to be powerful in our area. (I always prefer being influential over being powerful.) I figure we would be like the Balkan countries, if we let a Kurdistan here. Then, the Aegean region might demand independence, even Istanbul can try to be a real European country. I don't think it is a fruitful solution for us.I know that LOTS OF people despise Netanyahu in Israel, as is the case about Erdoğan in Turkey... Also, irregardless of whether one is religious or an atheist; this ongoing problem between Muslims and Jews is unfortunately affecting us all. You know? There are lots of "cultural Christians" in Europe and America. Same is for the Muslims, probably in all Muslim countries. I, unfortunately, fail to see a solution to this problem in the short term. I still can wish for a miracle... Hey, I'm an anarchist, but am not that delusional for expecting such an order to happen in 7 days, like how God created the Earth.  Lots of Palestinians are dying, and lots of Israeli people are living in fear... So sad... I hope there's something we can do about it. Thanks, Steve. 
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 11:49
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While there are large and visible muslim Arab communities in Israel, there are no Jewish communities left anywhere in the Arab World. 60 years ago there were 30,000 Moroccan Jews (today 2100) , Iraq went from 100,000 to 3 (yes, 3 people) , Algeria 130,000 to 90 etc... you get the idea. 60% went to Israel , the rest went to the "West". Perhaps if these at times forced migrations had not happened in the last 75 years, the situation may have been different. Try walking in Cairo, Baghdad, Algiers, Tripoli, Aden, Beirut etc... wearing a skullcap and see how long you live. Oddly, many of the formerly 80,000-strong Iranian Jewish community had left Iran by 1978. Subsequently, more than 80% of the remaining Iranian Jews fled or migrated from the country between 1979 and 2006. A small Jewish community of almost 10,000 still resides in Iran as a protected minority.
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 12:24
There's nothing "odd" there. Do you know what happened in Iran in 1979? So, things (like revolutions) don't "just" happen out of nothing. The problem is... a group of people "see/saw" themselves as the "chosen ones", and another larger group think/thought that the "chosen ones" are damned, and "Allah" granted them superiority over the damned ones. This is as blunt and to the point as I can be. I really don't like discussing religions and faiths, but felt like I have to make where the problems began clear. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 12:49
Oddly, in that Iranians are not Arabs and that Iranian Jews are Iranian. Just like Turks are not Arabs either. And I do know what happened in 1979, thank you. Its not just religion question but being different enough to be viewed with suspicion, as outsiders or not enough like the majority. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 12:55
In 1979, there happened an Islamic revolution. So, it is not odd at all. Not even close. Oh, you also can talk about how the "West" treated the Jews in the past. I'd be happy to read your "post", as befitting your signature here. It really would be good for me, as I don't have a better knowledge on this more than a regular person. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 13:00
The ODD part is not the 1979 Revolution, but the second part of the sentence which you have not adressed in your cut and paste: That today, TODAY, there is a PROTECTED minority community 10,000 strong in Iran. Just like in Turkey where the same status applies , I believe. That is the ODD part. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 13:11
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Thomas; sorry, but I still understand "the odd part" you're referring to differently from your related post. Though, if you had meant the 10.000 part with that, it is fair enough. I can understand it, being the notorious "misunderstood guy" here. 
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 13:30
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Being a historian , I am always stunned to read facts that generally go against popular beliefs, which was the gist of my comment. So much to discover still. BTW, did you know that David Ben-Gurion (first PM of Israel) studied at the University of Istanbul? The list of famous Turkish Jews is quite impressive by the way (such as one of the founders of the Young Turks !) . As far as being misunderstood, you are the resident anarchist , what do you expect
? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 13:36
Well, thank you. I'm not very knowledgeable on history. Perhaps our education system (or the lack thereof) is responsible for that. On a second thought, my brother is very knowledgeable about and interested in history. Perhaps I should blame myself. 
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 15:50
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What is happening in Jerusalem? The same tribal bullsh*t that's been happening for the last 5000 years. You should be used to it by now. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 13 2021 at 16:36
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I'm afraid we're past the tribal stage and into blood vendettas. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 14 2021 at 02:15
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Sectarian violence within Israel itself isn't something we've seen for a long time. Appalling situation which only end after significant bloodshed, I suspect. I guess worse case scenario is that Hezbollah step in to assist Hamas. Both are allied to Iran etc.. You can see where I'm going with this, but then we've probably been here before. The question is, will this kind of escalation one day light the fuse for a much broader conflict, resulting in Israel attacking Iran, and Moscow intervening... Tick tock tick tock...but hopefully not. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 14 2021 at 05:52
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I don't see Israel attacking Iran but just pummeling the settlement areas. Unfortunately. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 14 2021 at 06:30
I expect you're right. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: May 14 2021 at 12:52
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 04:34
I actually think that this situation including its long history, 2000 years of experience of the Jewish people with quite certainly the Holocaust having still a profound influence, and then the experience of the Palestinians who were living there in the meantime and had to move (or were moved) when the state of Israel was founded, is quite unique in human history. Very rarely two peoples with so different histories have a claim to the same area and can't really be expected to go elsewhere; and there's not really a very significant history of peaceful co-existence. Many members of both sides believe that the other side wants to get them out completely, and surely there are members of the respective other side that confirm these beliefs. The result is paranoia on both sides, actually very understandable paranoia that is easy to not take into account living in a relatively safe country that isn't involved in any current conflict like this. Sure the human obsession with their own "tribe"/people/nation is not exclusive to this conflict and plays a big role here, but looking at the history I find it comprehensible that and why both sides feel this fixation is essential for them to survive. There's no easy solution and it's a very sad situation. I can feel with both sides and indeed hope they get together peacefully somehow, but this is so easily said from the outside...
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 05:17
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 05:39
The problem is that with a hardliner like Netanyahu there will never be any peace. And with the so-called "nation-state law" that was introduced in 2018 Arabs have been declared 2nd-class citizens. For those who don't know the law:
With this law Israel has more or less become an apartheid state. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 05:44
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 06:20
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This is a link to a statement by the organization Human Rights Watch from Apr 27th this year: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/27/abusive-israeli-policies-constitute-crimes-apartheid-persecution" rel="nofollow - https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/27/abusive-israeli-policies-constitute-crimes-apartheid-persecution The Israeli policies mentioned in this statement are a direct consequence of this nation-state law.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 06:49
The Israelis have learnt that they have to be the stronger ones in order to survive. Many Jews underestimated the threat that the Nazis were to their very existence. They learned a very hard lesson indeed. The problem is that lessons learned from such atrocities will not bring peace when transferred to a different situation. The Palestinians obviously have nothing to do with this part of Jewish history, but they have to pay a big part of the price.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 07:00
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 08:13
Fair enough, but I don't think one can argue that any of the surrounding Arab states or Palestine organisations and administration have an any better balance sheet when it comes to dealing with Israeli people and other non-Muslim minorities on their own soil, and to some extent not even with large parts of their own Muslim citizens.
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Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 08:55
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I wonder why the q-anons support is***l Don't be a trendy justice whorior.. #BDS Free Palestine.... Injustice anywhere will make injustice everywhere acceptable. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 09:50
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What I cannot understand is why would a refugee camp that Gaza sadly and definitely is , have the wherewithal to possess thousands of rockets and the ability to launch them? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 10:22
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 10:28
According to the popular knowledge in Turkey, actually Israelis bought the land where Israel was founded, from the Arabs. (I made an anachronism here! They thereafter became the Israelis. )Israel has a "dream agenda". So, if they were not confronted with "resistance", they would conquer/buy other lands to make their dream come true. But honestly, which country doesn't have some wild dreams? We Turks have also a very big one. (Turan Ülküsü - The Turan Ideal, should be its English Translation.). But we are, instead the wasteyard of the West nowadays. We really buy garbage from Europe, that cannot dissolve in nature. I guess Germany should (mockingly) appreciate our stupidity! Our latest scandal was, our workers in the tourism sector are/were wearing "I'm vaccinated, have fun :)" masks, which is like how the colonized countries behaved, when they meet their colonizer "masters". Yep, the foreign tourists are like our masters now, as they bring and spend money here! Ironic and sad that we Turks cannot go to the beaches because of the lockdown, and our tourists are free to do whatever they like. Anyway, I believe every country has their own problems. Sorry for bothering you with some of ours. 
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 10:44
Rather than food and healthcare aid for their people, the Palestinians receive weaponry from their titular benefactors, like Iran. For instance, a ship carrying 50 tons of advanced weaponry in route from Iran to Gaza that was captured by Israeli commandos in 2002. A peaceful transition to a separate Palestinian state makes the most sense; however, the words "peaceful" and "sense" were never words one can use in the Middle East. In the Middle East, the Shiites hate the Sunnis, the Sunnis and Shiites hate the Jews, and the Jews hate them all. It's a vicious circle with no resolution. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 10:55
Your country seems far from being a saint in this regard... Anyway... My country is no saint, either. But, pardon me! You're too far away to be an actor here... Ah, like the Eagle, huh? I strongly suggest that we stick to the current events, without "daring" to make convictions about the situation in the Middle East, especially from a very far country! OK?
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 11:54
Tell that to the Kurds. Or from an historical standpoint the Armenians, for that matter. I never said the U.S. was a saint, far from it. But someone from Turkey telling me to mind my own business is laughable. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 12:00
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^ Ah, I wasn't talking about historical events. We all can talk about it. But you DARE to know what is going on in the Middle East and that they are "doomed" to be this way forever. Stereotyping, generalizing etc... So your shallowness calls for an answer like, "How about the Indians (Native Americans)?" or the like, but I prefer swimming in deep waters. Have fun in your muddy and shallow pool. |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 12:46
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I think some people simplify things with "They've been in war since the beginning" - there is no beginning, and there is no always... I think a factor people shouldn't ignore are all the "grenades" imperial powers keep throwing there, to explode in a country's face. Don't forget the geo-politics, and the oil, the Persian gulf and Suez Canal for trade, etc etc... It took my country (US) over 100 years to even recognize the Armenian Genocide. This issue isn't new, but despite the suppression of the news (when the AP or Al-Jazeera isn't being bombed), many can talk about it, share information together, record a few things, although netanyahoo's government put out fake video from 2018 that was in Libya or Syria. What disgusts me the most is the cowardice a lot of people have. Suddenly, some who want to make attention on Twitter (who never mentioned the issue before) are doing so, sometimes inflammatory or nuanced, depending on their audience. So many prefaces to avoid just coming out and saying what's on your mind. Cliches are old as Jerusalem, but I'd think people who listen to prog are above it, so I'm talking in generalities. I have almost 500 "friends" on Facebook and not only will no one post about this, but no one will respond if/when I post (since I hardly use it - it's a waste of time).. I don't know how millions of people can go berserk over a pronoun mistake, but those same people won't touch an issue like this which is more important than some trivial bullsh*t. It seems like if people were allowed 80% speech, many would still only use 4%. Remember Reagan called Mandela a terrorist (we went from "Ich bin eine Berliner" to "Ich bin eine Contra" with him) but the way was to boycott, divest, and sanction South Africa. Go on newspapers.com (or audio/video interviews at THAT time) and see how trendy people were. People won't stick their neck out. Everyone's a liberal... until it costs them a quarter, or a few "followers". It's about time we all took responsibility for the atrocities committed against the Palestinians for decades, and hopefully not wait until its too late like we do every other time. I can't respect the "both sides sh*t" or anyone who supports israel.... It can only be ignorance or pure hatred. For those who love statistics like they do in sports, you can see by almost any measurement that about 99% of the deaths are Palestinian civilians. But make sure a 4-year doesn't "recognize israel" - which is simple gaslighting, accusing others what you're guilty of... To respond to why Kurds have no homeland - the ruling powers are too busy using them as cannon fodder and mercenaries to ever give them a state. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 13:03
Perfectly hilarious typo! Yahoo!!! There's a saying that I heard, its English translation is like: "If 2 Turks come together, they found a country; if 2 Jews come together, they found a company." I met an EXTREMELY nationalist Turk, and he once said that, "These people (Kurds) could never achieve founding a country,", in a belittling (and not hateful) tone. But I guess you're right. They could never find the opportunity, due to many factors. We, Turks, are responsible for that to some extent, but there are also other factors like you mention. Anyway, I don't know about the future but wish for us all a bright future. Here's my political stance: "Anarchy is freedom, even of the rulers. It will be the end of our endeavour, and shall be the "terminus a quo" of the bright future." I'll not see that bright future, most (most, and most) probably. But will die in peace, for trying to do something about the true freedom of humanity. Love and respect to all... |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 16:28
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ASSOCIATED PRESS: JERUSALEM (AP) — An Israeli airstrike on Saturday destroyed a high-rise building that housed The Associated Press office in the Gaza Strip, despite repeated urgent calls from the news agency to the military to halt the impending attack. AP called the strike “shocking and horrifying.” Twelve AP staffers and freelancers were working and resting in the bureau on Saturday afternoon when the Israeli military telephoned a warning, giving occupants of the building one hour to evacuate. Everyone was able to get out, grabbing a few belongings, before three heavy missiles struck the 12-story building, collapsing it into a giant cloud of dust. Although no one was hurt, the airstrike demolished an office that was like a second home for AP journalists and marked a new chapter in the already rocky relationship between the Israeli military and the international media. Press-freedom groups condemned the attack. They accused the military, which claimed the building housed Hamas military intelligence, of trying to censor coverage of Israel’s relentless offensive against Hamas militants. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 17:02
It is interesting to think you believe you know what's going on in the Middle East when there are over a 100 media persons and journalists sitting in Turkish jails. It would seem you receive your news only from a certain point of view -- or else. But let's get back to the endless battle for a small strip of sand the size of New Jersey.... As things stand, Israel will not budge and continues to make settlements and repress Palestinians, Palestinians and Iran call for the destruction of the Israeli state. Politicians who have tried to mediate peacefully have been assassinated, like Sadat and Rabin. This is both from a historical and current perspective. There is no stereotype involved, it is the unvarnished Truth.
We as a country recognize what happened to the Native Americans, just as we acknowledge slavery as part of a corrupt past. Justice may be slow but it moves inexorably. And as far as I can tell, democracy still works in our country as we booted out our fat orange version of Erdoğan. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 17:28
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The theory I've held for the past 30 years is that many German Nazis from WW II have been reincarnated as Israelis. Old habits are hard to change--especially ones that have been established over many lifetimes. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 17:45
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All Israelis, some Israelis or an Israeli? That was quite a condemnation . Have you ever visited that troubled land or its neighbours? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 18:40
I think he means the Israelis (as in the State, not individuals) have become that which they most despise. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 19:53
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Still a pretty unrealistic comment . I doubt Jurgen Stroop , SS officer in charge of clearing the Warsaw ghetto gave advance notice to any civilians before bombing them into rubble. I visited Arab villages in the Galilee , as well sitting at cafes with Arab and Jew eating and arguing (it is a common local pass time) , have heard no talk of genocide or even a simple refusal to be served because you are not a Jew. Most cab drivers in Israel are Arabs, some Christians like me but most were Muslim. Gaza and the West Bank is another story and but most Israelis yearn for peace (like our own Sagi) . As far as this debate is concerned, I reiterate my previous quote : How can a refugee camp like Gaza have the ability to shoot thousands of rockets and missiles? The 10 largest refugee camps in the world (4 in Kenya BTW) have no such arsenal at their disposal. Regardless, any historian or expert anywhere has not found any hint of a solution other than a mutually recognized TWO state solution, whose first and only concern for security is to accept each others legitimacy. Hamas and Hezbollah are not interested in that kind of deal. That being said , the Occupied Territories is a huge obstacle that many (including most Israelis) would like to see solved. Terrorist groups come and go (IRA, Red Brigades, Baader/Meinhof, ETA, ANC military wing are all gone). ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 15 2021 at 22:25
Quite bored with your pretentiousness and ignorence, BTW. Anyway, here's my final reply to you in (probably) any political issue. As it will not end otherwise, you have a very long way to go in comprehending some things outside of your country, and you, unfortunately, are not a pleasant companion for me. One of my teachers was an American professor. I'll not mention his name but he was a notable, prominent one. He once said that, whenever an American student came to him and stereotyped a foreign country, he advised him/her to go there and live at lelast for 3 months to have the right and experience to do that. My replies to you are: 1-) I never claimed I know what is going on there. You're the "interesting" type here. 2-) You, as a country, have a Christian background and tradition. You just "confess your sins" and be clean as a cloudless sky; but only become clouded even more heavily with more atrocities thereafter. This vicious cycle lasts forever. You must know that Christians are believed to be born as sinners, do everything for eternal salvation all their lives. You seem like an atheist guy, but I hope you have enough wits to understand what I'm talking about. I'm also an atheist, but unfortunately we have the Muslim tradition and we barely "change" (unlike the Western rennaissances, reformations etc.) over time and have some real complex "defence mechanisms". |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 00:22
But your delineation of the cultural difference in point 2 does nothing finally to contradict what he said. He is absolutely right that moderates on both sides have been alienated and, where too powerful, assassinated. The situation IS beyond redemption now. From my vantage point as an Indian, I don't find this very different from the Kashmir dispute and the ultimate consequence here too has been to irreparably damage the politics of the two countries themselves. Had India not hunted for a face saver back in the day and just called a plebiscite without insisting on Pak vacating PoK, you wouldn't have had to deal with a more than half century old dispute. Likewise, had Pak not cynically treated many of India's subsequent gestures of forgiveness as a sign of weakness and reciprocated the gestures from their sides, both sides could free themselves from the geopolitical stranglehold they find themselves in. At least India was reasonably independent for some time but now one is a vassal of the US and the other of China. It's utter madness to me that two countries could sacrifice their sovereignty in the true sense just to fight over one piece of land but that's what has happened in Kashmir and that's what has happened in Jerusalem too. And the Jewish defence of ALL of Israel's aggressive overtures is very familiar to this liberal listening to the justifications of right wing hawks in India. There is always a justification for everything. Doesn't mean you are necessarily taking the long view or that you are right. In the end, mutual destruction because you think yourself too big to compromise seems a fair outcome.
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 00:51
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^ Madan, your post is beyond my comprehension, as I'm not as knowledgeable as you about such things. Not even close. I'm not defending our "reflex" when it comes to the Armenian Genocide thing. We had better explain the situation more relaxedly. Perhaps and hopefully we will be able to do that. My brother told me what actually happened then, and I believe him. As, he doesn't trust untrustable sources. I believe it was one of our sins, but it differs from the Jewish Holocaust in many ways. As I said, we have to explain it to the world in a simple and honest way. Anyway, thank you Madan, and my apologies to Greg (The Dark Elf) for my unkind words. Actually it is a matter of being in very different cultures. I, of course, don't find you/him ignorant. Plus, I'm the ignorant guy, when it comes to discuss politics with rogerthat.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 01:00
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I am not going to go into a discussion here simply because I find these types of threads downright tasteless. Gotta love it when people make comments about places and situations they have no real life experience with other than what they are fed through mainstream media. Please calm down, step back and think. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 02:56
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I’ve been away for about 24 hours and read now most of the posts and I gotta say my friend David here has really summed it up perfectly, anyone who doesn’t live here and fed by the news and much worse the social media where there is more fake news than real ones can’t really form an objective opinion about what’s really going on here, just like I don’t have anything to say about turkey or the American politics or whatever. I have no interest to justify every action or to wrangle with anyone here, but I can explain just a little bit about the general idea of what’s going on. I’ll start by saying that in retrospect the Israeli police have made a mistake about a week ago in order of keeping the order in The Temple Mount they prevented a part of the Muslim public to hang near the al aqsa mosque. That ignited the Arab public fuelled immensely by Hamas saying Israel prevents Muslims which I guess most of them are Israeli citizens to practice their religion. After about two days the police folded and things were back to normal but the damage was already done, Hamas seized the chance and started launching rockets to Israel while making a huge effort to kindle the area, that resulted in a never before seen almost civil war between Jews and Muslims. Like every few years the terror organisation Hamas launches rockets to populated areas in order of killing as many citizens as they can kill. Up till now which is about 6 days Hamas had launched more than 2000 missiles here, 2000 in 6 days! I don’t know any country that would sit in silent in this situation. Now on top of this Hamas soldiers and their homes, headquarters, armory and etc. are in many times are in the same building with civilians homes in order to make it harder to get them. After evacuation of the building is done by Israeli army is done the building is demolished, so every civilian in Gaza should know that if he is an accomplice to Hamas his home is a target. One more big difference in concept is when a civilian is killed by mistake or not by an air strike it’s always a big deal in Israeli media and the military is doing all they can do to prevent this even by aborting missions, but when an Israeli is killed you should see the celebrations in Gaza. There’s an explanation to everything things are not as simple as they appear to be in foreign media and theres a lot more to say but it’s hard using my phone... One more thing - To say Israel haven’t learned anything from the nazis is pure ignorance, no less. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 03:13
Yes but you see this part of the narrative doesn't really come out in international reporting. It is being made out as if Hamas just started the attacks entirely unprovoked. I think the dishonesty of the narrative triggers an extreme reaction in the other direction in some quarters. Now that isn't right either. Which leaves us with an endless circle of 'wrong'. If everyone is pointing fingers at each other, it means somewhere everyone has messed up.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 03:51
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I promised myself not to post in this thread again...but somehow I kept thinking about the ‘issue’ here and it bugs me. There is, in all of us, an ego that desperately wants to be right no matter how well-meaning we either genuinely are or merely present ourselves as...but we also all look at the world through individual peep holes. We’re all right, right? Lately, especially in western society, there’s an increasing war-like attitude in all means of communication where sides just shout at each other or similarly make snide and crass comments ultimately creating such a hostile environment for any truth to emerge...that when and if it suddenly pops up it’s head, no one believes it. We have to be careful when it comes to these things...or else we end up believing up is down and vice versa. As an example of how badly folks in power/the media/news can pervert truth, here is a video about the golden ratio...that to most in the western world looks very scary (satan?!!). It’s basically a crash course into how you keep real knowledge from people by painting it with an evil brush so as nobody can or will see it for what it really is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIrvM1gcnPU Peace  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 04:02
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^ @rogerthat yes you’re right although in this case I admitted that the police made a huge mistake and I know for sure that the reason for that was only to keep the order and not to provoke or to show whos the boss, that doesn’t mean they are the only one to blame, there are so many factors that would benefit from such escalation for example obviously Hamas. What I want to say is that the police action isn’t an excuse for violence and missiles. As we speak hundreds of missiles are flying here every few hours I wonder if any one knows about it around here ? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 04:09
I think you misunderstand me Sagi, which in all fairness can be rather easy these days  All of this, at least to me, is like living in a collective with a lot of other people arguing about the same old thing: the carpets are always wet!!...and everybody agrees that the carpets indeed are wet because it’s quite clearly visible and tangible to all...so all conversation revolves around the carpets and the types of problems they cause. Yet if any of them had the audacity to shift their look upwards, they’d see that there was no roof. People are generally looking in all the wrong places to find something to either understand or blame...and I honestly can’t blame them. It’s in our blood. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 04:12
| I hear you Dave you are as wise as an old China man! My reply was for rogerthat. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 04:14
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Thanks...I should probably have known ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 05:05
That depends again, unfortunately, on your chosen echo chamber. There is this on the one hand, blatant misreporting by NYPost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjMN_bHuWEA&t=183s On the other hand, yes, there is indeed a contingent that makes it out like an outright massacre by Israel of Palestine and ignores that Hamas started with the rocket launches. As Trump once said, "What you think you're so innocent?" As I said in my earlier comment, if everyone is busy blaming each other, it does mean everybody is to blame. And as Guldbamsen put it, an individual or collective sense of ego seems to get in the way of acknowledging faults on one's own side before that of others. I do appreciate that you started out by mentioning where Israel erred. This is sadly the spirit that is missing in most quarters or at least the most vociferous ones (which dominate the discourse).
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 15:13
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The talk about the media reminds of a book I read not too long ago, a pretty successful book in the Netherlands by Joris Luyendijk who was a journalist in the Middle East before and during the Iraq War. Of course not all of it applies to the parties involved here, but he describes how impossible it is to get an objective framing of events when governments and leaders have heavy investment in looking favorable to the outside world, the press is guided towards cherry-picked items and interviewees and even the local inhabitants are left unsure about what to believe. I don't know what the freedom of press in Israel is like right now (in the reporting on the conflict I mean), but the book at least includes the Israel of back then as one of the examples. Either way that did make me a lot more wary and skeptical about news reporting from conflict areas by any media, so I would agree that in this case that it might be better to hold off on discussions on the finest details of this or that terrible act as reported facts seem to be confusing and contradictory all the way down, especially right after the event. But hey, I don't follow the news too closely anyways so I might be wrong in this case... -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 16:11
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in the 2020 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries. for comparison: the USA ranked 46th, Germany ranked 13th. the top 4 were Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 16:32
Nothing is worth the information unless it has context. In the 2021 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries. https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021 Interestingly enough, all these Middle-Eastern countries ranked far lower: 105. Kuwait 107. Lebanon 122. Afghanistan 128. Qatar 129. Jordan 131. United Arab Emirates 132. Palestine 133. Oman 153. Turkey 163. Iraq 165. Libya 166. Egypt 169. Yemen 170. Saudi Arabia 173. Syria 174. Iran In context, it would seem that Israel has far more freedom of the press than all their neighbors (and of course, all their enemies). As for any other cultural conclusions, I will leave that to you. P.S. And you are reviewing outdated material, my dear. The U.S. jumped up a whole 2 spots to 44 in 2021's index. WOOT! ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 16:49
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 23:09
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FYI, The Dark Mind, I can't speak Elvish but can speak English and use Twitter. So, I'm not bound to be informed by our media. Plus, we have some really good press mediums too. Plus, I don't deem my country as Middle-Eastern. The problem here is... No matter how we, the rest of the world, try to explain some things to you (to a large portion of the Americans with some hapless mindsets); it'll be in vain. A VERY LARGE number of you don't even know where my country is. Some of my American customers said that, "Ah Turkey, it was in Africa right?" And most of the rest have to be reminded that there's "a country near Greece." I don't give a f**k, but feel sorry for you... I prefer Chinese wisdom to pseudo-Elvish one. 
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Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 16 2021 at 23:43
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Back on topic, my country (Turkey) widely uses the term "terör devleti" for Israel, whenever they attack Palestinians. But it is too obvious that this is just a Muslim reflex/reaction. It doesn't even mean "a terrorist state", but rather "terror state". Which doesn't make much sense, more than a hasty and careless outburst. I think they want to mean, "a state that exerts terror". Anyway, this is just a FYI. I don't back this statement up. I feel and think exactly like Lewian on this matter. Also, like Guldbamsen said, peace.
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Posted By: oguzeren
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 05:08
Someone from which countries can post their opinions here, may I ask? The fact that so many journalists are jailed in my country does NOT mean all citizens are supporting that. And if one is democrat enough to be against that, he/she would also be aware that this "someone from Turkey..." sentence is pure discrimination. Don't get me wrong, I will never support the current regime, and that's why I moved to Europe four years ago. The area is chaos, thanks to the support from all countries (including mine) to several armed groups which are active in middle east. I'm not an expert at all, but I keep reading about islamic / kurdish / whatever groups receiving a lot of support... It's easy to blame the current Turkish regime, but it's actually a result of all these activities in the area, throughout the last few decades. Maybe beginning with the cold-war era.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 08:21
The attack of the impotent Turks. I don't really give a damn about what you think, however I do know where Turkey is. A simple WIKI look up will suffice: The Middle East is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transcontinental_countries" rel="nofollow - transcontinental region in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Eurasia" rel="nofollow - Afro-Eurasia which generally includes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Asia" rel="nofollow - Western Asia (except for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcaucasia" rel="nofollow - Transcaucasia ), all of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt" rel="nofollow - Egypt (mostly in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa" rel="nofollow - North Africa ), and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey" rel="nofollow - Turkey ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Thrace" rel="nofollow - partly in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe" rel="nofollow - Southeast Europe ). The term has come into wider usage as a replacement of the term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East" rel="nofollow - Near East (as opposed to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East" rel="nofollow - Far East ) beginning in the early 20th century. The broader concept of the " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East" rel="nofollow - Greater Middle East " (aka the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MENA" rel="nofollow - Middle East and North Africa or the MENAP) also includes The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb" rel="nofollow - Maghreb , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan" rel="nofollow - Sudan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti" rel="nofollow - Djibouti , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia" rel="nofollow - Somalia , the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comoros" rel="nofollow - Comoros , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan" rel="nofollow - Afghanistan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan" rel="nofollow - Pakistan , and sometimes Transcaucasia and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" rel="nofollow - Central Asia into the region. From an historical perspective and for all intents and purposes, Turkey ceased to be a European country once Constantinople fell in 1453. For the next 469 years the Ottoman Empire ruled a primarily Middle-eastern set of provinces including what is now Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq, the Muslim fringe of North Africa, and the European Balkans. As a medievalist, I can discuss the history of Byzantium all day, if you wish. We can also discuss the partitioning of the empire in the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920. In conclusion, I offer you a message from Sgt. Hulka.... ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 08:32
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Greg, dear Greg. This was not an attack at all... I really don't want to call you "delusional", but you're tempting me... If I had to place bets, I might put all my fortune on "Greg knows where Turkey is." The Middle-East thing is disputable, even if we ignore the fact that the West is categorizing everything, and draws the "maps". I'd be delighted to learn some Medieval stuff from you. I'm also very interested in (albeit not very knowledgeable on) Medieval Europe. Care to do something about that, like creating polls, initializing discussions etc.? Yours Middle-Easternly, Özgür. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 10:59
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Ozgur (sorry but my keyboard doesn't have umlauts), please remember that it's the victors who write the histories. And draw the maps. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 11:07
I can never forget that... We, Turks, are far from being saints in this regard, either. I really admire the countries who are totally honest about writing their histories, if there are such countries. Perhaps Thomas knows... But, this is not the proper place for this, I think. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 18:56
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 20:02
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 17 2021 at 21:48
But this kind of definition of Middle East is useless for Asians. We usually refer to the Gulf states (plus Iraq and Iran) when we say Middle East. Kazhak/Afghanistan/Turkmenistan is Central Asia. Morocco/Egypt are the mediterranean states while Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia fall in Eurasia. Pakistan and Bangladesh along with India are part of South Asia or the Indian subcontinent however defined (I prefer South Asia as it is broader and includes countries like Myanmar). And the reason for doing so is that these regions are all culturally different. You will not find Mughal architecture anywhere in the Gulf, for instance (unless somebody decided to copy it and build a 20th century tribute to decadence). Likewise, the typical layout of mosques seen in the Gulf is absent in Pakistan or India (which as everyone knows or should know was just one country prior to 1947). Pakistanis write in Urdu but not Arabic and while Urdu script is radically different from Hindi, spoken Urdu sounds almost exactly the same. Any definition of Middle East that includes Pakistan or even Afghanistan makes no sense to me. You may say that is just my opinion but these definitions sound suspiciously Westernized to me. It may be more convenient from a Western perspective to just lump all these countries in one basket. But that does not impose any obligation on others to see it the same way nor does it make us 'wrong' if we disagree. I don't doubt that you know the history of Levant inside out. But the definition of Middle East you have cited is nevertheless too broad.
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Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:31
1937 Peel Commission partition plan - rejected unanimously by arab parties. 1947 UN Partition Plan - rejected unanimously by all arab nations and interested parties. Follow up the plan with an invasion leaving all of the West Bank in the hands of Jordan and Gaza with Egypt. Absolutely no progress made by arabs to give Palestinians an autonomous state in those territories. 2000 Camp David Summit - Arafat was offered a state, rejected it, and instigated the intifada which, among other things, including suicide bombing restaurants and buses. 2008 Ehud Olmert Peace Proposal - Rejected by Mahmoud Abbas. Maybe you think its time for a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians dont seem to think so. Or at least certainly not a state limited to the West Bank and Gaza. For the record, the I am of the belief that the creation of a Palestinian state will result in a security and humanitarian crisis for both Israelis and Arabs far worse than anything any of us have experienced until this point.
In sum, if you care about life, you should oppose the creation of a Palestinian state under current conditions. |
Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:38
This is a pretty ignorant comment and shows you know basically nothing about the conflict. I mean sure there's a tribal element, but 5000 years? Judaism as a religion isn't even that old! Are you not aware that Jews regularly lived in Isalmic lands peacefully? Are you not aware that the Arab and Jewish self-determination movements that precipitated the conflict in the early 20th century were largely secular and socialist? Maybe read a book or two before embarrassing yourself on the internet.
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Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:46
Man I don't even know where to start on this one. "I don't see Israel attacking Iran " - Hate to break it to you, but just because SteveG doesn't see something, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Israel has been attacking Iran clandestinely for a decade now. This includes, among other things:
"just pummeling the settlement areas." - By all means, please enlighten as the last time Israel conducted any air strikes in the West Bank... I assume you are referring to the latest round of fighting in which GAZA is being "pummeled" by Israeli air and artillery. But of course Gaza has not had a single Jewish resident since 2005 when Israel unilaterally withdrew all settlers from the territory. |
Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:50
You are obviously very ignorant of both Nazi history and Israeli history.
With hot takes like this, its no wonders your album reviews are such trash. There's just something fundamentally broken in how you perceive reality. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:55
There is something I have heard Muslims cite at times which I cannot confirm the veracity of but it's a concept that forbids compromise in holy matters. This was the reason given for refusal when Muslim parties were persuaded to compromise on the Ram Mandir dispute in Ayodhya. Their stand was, it's our mosque, our land and no quarter can be conceded. And of course now a right wing govt simply pressurised the Court to pass a hilarious (ok, it would be hilarious if it weren't tragic) handing over all the land for the construction of a temple. This is also why Palestine has never agreed to a settlement on Kashmir and also why Pakistan never accepted Indian offers to come to the table (even after losing, as they did in 1971). I wish the concerned leaders would rise above purely religious considerations on such issues but I suppose that would be difficult to sell to the masses after telling them over and over that you are strictly supposed to live your life as per what the Quran and Hadith have laid down.
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Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:08
Dar al-Islam --> but again we need to be careful pinning this on Islam. In the 20th century, the majority of Arab countries were ruled by secular dictatorships. Even the PA is technically secular. These dictators will often utilize Islamic ideas and symbolism to either promote an agenda or cynically pander to the masses to maintain legitimacy.
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Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:33
ICAHD UK Webinar – Where Do We Go From Here? – Monday 24th May at 5pm (UK Time)Posted on May 17, 2021, by https://icahd.org/author/robskupski-co-uk/" rel="nofollow - ICAHD UK & filed under https://icahd.org/category/news/" rel="nofollow - News .  With Munir Nuseibah and Jeff Halper
Stories of the horrific atrocities happening in Gaza as well as within the state of Israel, East Jerusalem and the West Bank are reaching us through media reports that have spread like wildfire. The international community has responded with millions protesting in the streets, lobbying politicians, and writing letters to media platforms insisting that the truth be told and justice be done. The carnage we are witnessing is rooted in Israel’s original settler-colonial desire: to take as much of historic Palestine as achievable but with as few of the indigenous Palestinian population as possible. But where are recent events going? Will Bibi Netanyahu get his way by realizing further ethnic cleansing and garnering Israeli support that allows him to stay in power? Will Hamas rockets result in the siege on Gaza being lifted? So far, governments have not held the Israeli government accountable for its gross violations of international law and have maintained the status quo. Can things be different this time? Can Palestinians and Israelis ever co-exist? The aim of this webinar is to provide a political overview and understanding about events during May and where things might go. What are the most effective ways for international civil society to respond as it demonstrates solidarity with the Palestinian people and to ensure that our voices are heard by people and governments?   Dr Munir Nuseibah is a human rights lawyer and academic at Al Quds University, Jerusalem. He heads the Community Action Centre in Jerusalem’s Old City and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Al Quds Human Rights Clinic. Dr Jeff Halper is an anthropologist who has taught at universities around the world. A life-long activist for social justice, Jeff Halper is the Director of ICAHD, and he is on the steering committee of the One Democratic State Campaign. His latest book is Decolonizing Israel, Liberating Palestine: Zionism, Settler Colonialism, and the Case for One Democratic State. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:46
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I see it as a problem of the tactics used by the ruling class and the clergy rather than the religion or its texts. Every religious text has passages that would be questionable today, well, most texts anyway.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:53
I wish PA had an ignore function  This thread is basicallly everything wrong with the world today. A lot of folks that live far away...commenting on stuff they have no way of checking up on...and no I am most definitely not siding with anyone other than righteous people. I have friends on both sides of the fence and hear their respective cases with a ton of pics and articles attached...yet I don’t trust them to be ‘in the know’. They’re often blinded by hate or fear...which is very understandable when you really think about it. Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:02
So you're committing what's called the "genetic fallacy." You are invalidating an argument not on the basis of its weaknesses, but on some characteristic of the person making the argument. So "a lot of folks that live far away" or friend of yours "blinded by fear" and therefore you can't really accept what they are saying even if what they are saying is perfectly valid. "Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on." - Listen I get, there's a lot of history to read up on and a lot of pure philosophocal/ideological thought that goes into coming up with a strong and coherent opinion on this specific conflict. Not everybody is cut out for it. But some of us are grown ups and are more than capable of having coherent and empirically founded views of the world and then engaging in discussion about it.
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Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:03
It does by the way. In the emails they send you, you can opt to no longer received emails on this thread. If you no-longer wish to receive email notification for this Topic or Forum click on the link below : -
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/email_notify.asp?TID=126366&FID=4&M=Unsubscribe" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/ |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:04
I hear you, brother. Life hereabouts is too exciting (!) unfortunately. If your life in Denmark is as dull as your Netflix series "The Rain", try following our neverending sh*t. Seriously though, you're a very kind and thoughtful person. Our "targets" are different, but goal is the same, I believe. The tension in this topic is somewhat disturbing for me too, perhaps we all should do as you said earlier. Relax... On the other hand, we share some really "enlightening" things too... I believe we can continue doing that, albeit more calmly. I'm also digging your "Nordic Wisdom", BTW. 
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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:09
You have a very peculiar and selective way of reading history. Israel was created based on land grab. The Peel Commission was a representation of the British colonial power, just as the UN in 1947 was governed by the colonial powers of that time. Why would the Arabs accept the land grab that was inflicted on them? Because some religious book promised it to an other religious community? People defending this logic should expect resistance. Clearly, you seem to want to condone and perpetuate the injustice inflicted on the Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians (continuing land grab and the suffocation of a whole population). What you call Israel's "defence" is just a continuation of an attack since 1948. There seem to be no just solution anymore, but the way Israel is trying to impose their "solution" since 1967 deserves to be combated. And the Germans killed the Jews And the Jews killed the Arabs And Arabs killed the hostages And that is the news And is it any wonder That the monkey's confused He said Mama Mama The President's a fool (Roger Waters - Perfect Sense) ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:13
Please don’t talk down to me. I am not a little kid. My father has taught me about the history of Israel and Palestinensernes ever since I was a little kid. He even got the star of David when I was born (my name’s David)....yet what he told me doesn’t entirely line up with what I was told in school...and that changed again in University....and then again whilst talking to friends from Palestine or Israel. Then I started investigating history books from outside of the western world and yet again I was told another story. I am not talking about specifics because ‘specifics’ in this grand old storyline entirely depends on your viewpoint. I have also read far too much leaked material off of WikiLeaks to know that whatever tale the media is slinging our way...is way off any actual truth. Specifics are a way to get a heated argument going...not necessarily a way to approach one another. It shouldn’t be like this...but yeah...take another look at this thread and how you yourself just acted. How are we ever going to find a peaceful middleground when we aren’t even capable of discussing matters in a civil tongue? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:19
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:22
Thank for further demonstrating my point that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are, indeed, not interested in a Palestinian state under the terms most westerners, SteveG, the European Union, the UN, and the US, seem to think would appease them. As you pointed out, they see all of Israel as a stolen land. So why settle on just the West Bank and Gaza? And if that's all they wanted, they clearly could have had it. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:27
This history you are summarizing is significantly more complex than you make it out to be and is very skewed in one direction. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:30
I was not trying to give a history (though I certainly could). I am demonstrating that the Palestinians are not interested in a state that agrees to the terms most westerners think would be acceptable. They have had the opportunity, they don't want it. For them, all of Israel is one big imperial land grab and it would insult their sense of justice to compromise on it.
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Posted By: ssmarcus
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:33
Please don’t talk down to me. I am not a little kid[/QUOTE] You literally accused the debaters here of speaking out of fear and half information (instead of engaging directly with the argument), and you have the chutzpa to accuse me of talking down to you? Ok...
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:53
Well, you are quite selective yourself in your history , mon ami. While the UN was under the "control" of colonial powers, it as nevertheless CLEARLY going through an entire post-war de-colonization process. Most European countries (except for Portugal) were contemplating their exit from colonialism, as it became untenable in view of the Nazi credo of world domination (or Lebensraum). Most countries are based on "land grabs", justified or not, successful or not. It's called human stupidity (endlessly maintaining some destructive policy) . Had Arafat and Rabin ,whilst shaking hands, moved closer to cooperating , the world would have been a different place today. Rabin was assassinated for his decision and the PA rejected further overtures. The land grab you refer to are the consequences of War not of the creation of the Israeli state. the Occupied Territories, are called that because they are the result of occupation. But not the rest of Israel , me thinks. The declaration of independence in 1948 by Ben -Gurion clearly asks (pleads actually) that the Arabs stay and help to create a two-part country. This is a written and taped speech, it is not propaganda or lies. The Who, When, Where and What of history are rarely challengeable. Its always the WHY that is problematic. BTW, Waters is not a credible source of anything, except music, as his tendency to be vulgar and rude is quite evident. He believes all the Jews should leave that land and go to another planet, where the inhabitants (or lack thereof) will not be displaced. There are many Israelis who would accept a peaceful 2 state solution, I am not sure how many on the other side would have the courage to say so.
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:55
You literally accused the debaters here of speaking out of fear and half information (instead of engaging directly with the argument), and you have the chutzpa to accuse me of talking down to you? Ok... [/QUOTE] That was not what I said, but I guess you can make it out to look like that if you’re searching for a fencing joust. We all speak out of fear and misinformation my good sir...the real problems though arise when we are oblivious about it. If you flip on any news from the western world you’re bombarded with stuff to fear and people/cultures to hate and blame. Our society is driven by the very same. People are much easier to sheep when they’re afraid. They’ll give up anything - including their basic human rights in order NOT to be afraid. I was not singling you out anymore than any of my longtime friends from the promised land. They don’t even live there anymore but fear for their families. How could they not? I am not looking for an argument. I want peace dammit! ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:55
...as those same "westerners" don't seem to accept a Palestinian state under the terms most Arabs would want it to see. If the Spanish would come to France and throw me off my land and out of my house because Cervantes had promised it to them in the sequel of Don Quichotte, I would not accept it. Not now and not in 73 years. Maybe I would listen and talk if a decent solution would be proposed. Since 1967 no decent solution has been proposed, and today Netanyahu is just profiting from the Western apathy regarding this conflict by continuing the colonization (= land grab) and the suffocation of the Palestinian people in Gaza and on the West Bank, and at the same time consolidating an apartheid regime in Israel itself. We don't need objectivity here, we need a just solution, but Israel doesn't seem to want a just solution but to continue its aggressive and oppressive politics towards Arabs and the Palestinian territories. Apparently with your blessing. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:04
Nothing is contradictory here with what I said. I even agree with everything you say here (except your cheap remark on Waters). That is why I'm talking about a "just solution". Arafat and Rabin were close, but now we are further away than ever. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:05
1967? what about the Camp David accords? Arafat/Rabin, Sadat/Begin , or was that just an illusion? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |