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What is happening in Jerusalem?

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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 02:20
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Israel was created based on land grab.


You simply wrote this. Does this come to mean "buying"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 02:31
^ There was not just one method: some Palestinians sold their lands, some were chased away, others were killed...
...and some were told by neighbouring countries: come stay with us for a while until we settle this problem.



Edited by suitkees - May 19 2021 at 02:34

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 02:35
^ I actually wish Sagichim and ssmarcus say something about this. I even "more than wish" we have some Palestinian contributors here. But thanks for "your" knowledge kees. Approve

Edited by Shadowyzard - May 19 2021 at 02:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 03:19
The mess was created by the Western  powers; the inception of it wasn't particularly the fault of either Israelis or Palestinians.  Hence why enormous amounts of US money have now been poured into Israel.  And if you check the record of donations, you can see which side of Joe Biden's bread is buttered. There is a strong interest in preserving a pro-Israel status quo come what may.

Back in the 90s, when Biden felt less compelled to act nice, he said openly in the Senate that supporting Israel was a matter of American self interest and it would invest money to create an Israel if it had to.  Can't find the clip of it now; if I can, will post it. 


Edited by rogerthat - May 19 2021 at 03:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 03:58
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The mess was created by the Western  powers; 

The point where I agree with ssmarcus is that maybe there was really no way to not have a mess, so the point is really not to blame anyone, be it Western powers, be it Israelis, be it Palestinians (surely also my own compatriots played a role, see earlier posting). The whole discussion is full of X blaming Y and Y defending themselves, and once more unfortunately this is human and not exclusively Isreaeli, Palestinian, American, Turkish, German, whatever. What is special and unique is the whole history how this mess came about. I don't see a solution but I think trying as hard as possible to appreciate the point of view of the respective other side is the way to go. What happens mostly, on all sides, is the opposite.  


Edited by Lewian - May 19 2021 at 03:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 05:09
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The mess was created by the Western  powers; 

The point where I agree with ssmarcus is that maybe there was really no way to not have a mess, so the point is really not to blame anyone, be it Western powers, be it Israelis, be it Palestinians (surely also my own compatriots played a role, see earlier posting). The whole discussion is full of X blaming Y and Y defending themselves, and once more unfortunately this is human and not exclusively Isreaeli, Palestinian, American, Turkish, German, whatever. What is special and unique is the whole history how this mess came about. I don't see a solution but I think trying as hard as possible to appreciate the point of view of the respective other side is the way to go. What happens mostly, on all sides, is the opposite.  
 

I would agree were it not for the virulent anti Semitism which was most pronounced in Nazi Germany but generally widespread in Europe during that period.  It created an imperative for a 'safe space' for Jews because they could not be safe in Europe.  Had anti Semitism been tackled head on, much trouble would have been avoided (well duh) and one of the incidental by products would have been the non-creation of the Israel-Palestinian dispute.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 05:18
Absolutely correct. The formation of the Jewish state was done, at least by some Western countries, as an act with good intentions. For some it was simply expediency. But there's no putting the genie back in the bottle now, whatever the reason for it's escape.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 05:52
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The mess was created by the Western  powers; 

The point where I agree with ssmarcus is that maybe there was really no way to not have a mess, so the point is really not to blame anyone, be it Western powers, be it Israelis, be it Palestinians (surely also my own compatriots played a role, see earlier posting). The whole discussion is full of X blaming Y and Y defending themselves, and once more unfortunately this is human and not exclusively Isreaeli, Palestinian, American, Turkish, German, whatever. What is special and unique is the whole history how this mess came about. I don't see a solution but I think trying as hard as possible to appreciate the point of view of the respective other side is the way to go. What happens mostly, on all sides, is the opposite.  
 

I would agree were it not for the virulent anti Semitism which was most pronounced in Nazi Germany but generally widespread in Europe during that period.  It created an imperative for a 'safe space' for Jews because they could not be safe in Europe.  Had anti Semitism been tackled head on, much trouble would have been avoided (well duh) and one of the incidental by products would have been the non-creation of the Israel-Palestinian dispute.

I actually agree with this, except that it would have been easier said than done to "tackle this head on". My point isn't really that nobody can be blamed for anything, surely many can be blamed for many things and with the Nazis you always hit the right ones. Still what bothers me is that much of the discussion seems to imply that who is to be blamed for what is a major thing to settle when figuring out what should happen in the future. I think it can be used better to understand where people are coming from - for me it helps a lot to get some understanding of Israeli politics for example, but I don't subscribe for example to the "the Palestinians shouldn't have a state because their leaders have been responsible for terrorism and there are no Muslim democracies" logic, but neither to "Israel is built on land grab so they have to give back the land".


Edited by Lewian - May 19 2021 at 05:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 05:58
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Your way of misreading/misinterpreting my posts is staggering...
Second, I am not against Jewish self-determination, 

You can claim to support Jewish self-determination but it is completely incompatible with your argument until this point. 

For example, you wrote, "The One State solution: the most reasonable and just, but indeed nowadays the least realist (because of the "demographic danger")." Clearly, your preference for a one-state solution for both Jews and Arabs and your dismissal of the demographic component are a direct repudiation of self-determination which, by definition, entails the creation of a nation state with a clear majority of people belonging to the nation exercising its rights. You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

This is less of a case of me "misreading/misinterpreting" and you not following the logic of your own arguments all the way through :-) 

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

First of all, your "status quo solution" implies that you are in favour of continuing suffocation and oppression of the Palestinians.

And you accuse me of misreading your posts lol. 

In my argument for the maintenance of the status quo, I demonstrate how Palestinian interests (as far as safety, economic prosperity, political stability are concered) and are indeed served by maintenance of the status quo. 

Obviously you dont have to agree with that. But it is on you to demonstrate how the status quo perpetuates suffering in these regards in excess of the status quo. As far as I can tell, you have not done that so my argument still stands. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 06:16
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I actually agree with this, except that it would have been easier said than done to "tackle this head on". My point isn't really that nobody can be blamed for anything, surely many can be blamed for many things and with the Nazis you always hit the right ones. Still what bothers me is that much of the discussion seems to imply that who is to be blamed for what is a major thing to settle when figuring out what should happen in the future. I think it can be used better to understand where people are coming from - for me it helps a lot to get some understanding of Israeli politics for example, but I don't subscribe for example to the "the Palestinians shouldn't have a state because their leaders have been responsible for terrorism and there are no Muslim democracies" logic, but neither to "Israel is built on land grab so they have to give back the land".

Well, the reason any discussion on Israel-Palestine gets into blame game because the mess was an intractable one from inception.  The last two statements you mentioned would appear to be valid from a purely Israeli or Palestinian perspective.  Palestinians would regard Israelis as encroachers. Being directly affected by the creation of Israel, they would be less inclined to look at the historical context.  Likewise, because Israel itself is so crucial for Israelis, they too would be less inclined to put themselves in the shoes of Palestinians and act on the threat faced from terrorist operators engaged by Palestine.  And it's absolutely true that they did and not just today.  Even back in the day, Arafat helped the Ayatollah revolution.  So Israel's suspicions aren't unfounded. It sounds extremely depressing to say so but the problem is now a Gordian's knot.  Any possible amicable solutions could have been arrived at in times when more peace-inclined, moderate forces were in power. It's very unlikely to be solved NOW.  The xenophobia of Brexit undid the delicate soft border arrangement that brought peace to Ireland. If that could not survive the return of far right forces, what chance does the Israel-Palestine dispute have?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 06:39
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:


Israel was created based on land grab.

^ There was not just one method: some Palestinians sold their lands, some were chased away, others were killed...
...and some were told by neighbouring countries: come stay with us for a while until we settle this problem.

There are two statements here. One is supposed to be a clarification of the other. But in reality, you are conflating two points: the basis for Israel's creation and the methods used by Jews to secure territory for our state. 

The basis for Israel's creation is, and continues to be, the right of Jews to govern ourselves in our historic homeland, a right already enjoyed by the French in France, the Poles in Poland, the Arabs in 20 something independent states, etc. etc. 

The rest of your comment is indeed correct as far as personal land ownership is concerned within the 48 border. However, the overwhelming majority of land "from the river to the sea" has been, and continues to be, state land controlled that exchanges hands through treaties and wars. Depending on the period in history, any given area of state land (again the majority of land in question) may have been controlled by the Ottamans, the Brits, Israel, and by Egypt and Jordan when they captured areas in the wake of the 48 war (now under Israeli or PA or Hamas control depending on the territory in question). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 06:58
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The mess was created by the Western  powers; the inception of it wasn't particularly the fault of either Israelis or Palestinians.  

If the mess you are referring to is the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict generally, then I disagree. The fault lies squarely on Jews and Arabs. Whatever side you take, the mess exists because Jews and Arabs don't agree on what to do and how to do it (spoiler alert: I obviously put the majority of the blame squarely on the Arabs but that's not my point in this particular post). 

Sure Western powers have interfered out of their own interest. And Jews and Arabs have also leveraged their diplomatic ties and abilities to varying degrees of success to enlist Western assistance. But at worst, this exacerbated the conflict, it did not create it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 07:19
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The mess was created by the Western  powers; the inception of it wasn't particularly the fault of either Israelis or Palestinians.  

If the mess you are referring to is the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict generally, then I disagree. The fault lies squarely on Jews and Arabs. Whatever side you take, the mess exists because Jews and Arabs don't agree on what to do and how to do it (spoiler alert: I obviously put the majority of the blame squarely on the Arabs but that's not my point in this particular post). 

Sure Western powers have interfered out of their own interest. And Jews and Arabs have also leveraged their diplomatic ties and abilities to varying degrees of success to enlist Western assistance. But at worst, this exacerbated the conflict, it did not create it.  

No, as I explained in my posts, I am referring to the events that triggered the mass exodus of Jews from Europe to Israel.  An uneasy peace could have existed between the Zionists and the Arabs while the others stayed on in Europe where they were already comfortable and prosperous.  But the Anti Semitic attacks forced Jews to take shelter in a land they could call entirely their own.  And that land had to come into being by way of carving it out from within then Palestine.  They didn't walk into barren, uninhabited land but took what was once regarded as theirs by another people.  How the British Empire could not have foreseen the conflict I do not know and I rather suspect they did and saw it in their interest to stoke said conflict (as they did with partition between India and Pakistan). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 07:27
The British were also getting a bit tired of their postal workers getting blown up by bombs planted in mailboxes by the Zionists. Then there's the King David hotel...

Edited by SteveG - May 19 2021 at 07:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 07:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The British were also getting a bit tired of their postal workers getting blown up by bombs planted in mailboxes by the Zionists. Then there's the King David hotel...

Terrorism employed in the service of one's own cause is always viewed as just and easily forgotten.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 08:50
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The British were also getting a bit tired of their postal workers getting blown up by bombs planted in mailboxes by the Zionists. Then there's the King David hotel...


Terrorism employed in the service of one's own cause is always viewed as just and easily forgotten.
Worse when actually celebrated like the Israelis commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel. An act that ended 92 lives. They would have done better to forget it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 09:03
USS Liberty
https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 09:16
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

USS Liberty
Yes, but the Israelis owned that one, paying the US millions in damages. But how they could have mistaken an American naval ship for an Egyptian naval ship is beyond me. 

Edited by SteveG - May 19 2021 at 09:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 09:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The British were also getting a bit tired of their postal workers getting blown up by bombs planted in mailboxes by the Zionists. Then there's the King David hotel...


Terrorism employed in the service of one's own cause is always viewed as just and easily forgotten.
Worse when actually celebrated like the Israelis commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel. An act that ended 92 lives. They would have done better to forget it.

Wow, wasn't aware of that.  Sounds demented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 09:41
For a thumbnail sketch, just Google The King David Hotel bombing on wiki. It's pretty detailed and goes into the historical events as well present commemorations of that bombing by the Israelis.
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