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progbethyname 
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 Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:22 |
 Dayvenkirq wrote:
The End.Epilogue: what's a swan song attitude? [red curtains closing]
Now let's discuss prog literature/poetry. |
Ambiguities I know are plaging your mind.
Swan song is an old expression to indicate someone's last orra' before death.
It's just more wearing your heart on your sleeve flowery stuff.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_song
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progbethyname
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Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:30 |
Ok. Now let's have some fun.
Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'
What is the flower and what is the gravestone?
Any takers?
:)
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Dayvenkirq
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Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:32 |
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I know what swan song is. I've just never heard the term "swan song attitude" before. I could only assume what it means, which is still pretty ambiguous.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 18 2013 at 02:44
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: June 17 2013 at 19:58 |
progbethyname wrote:
Ok. Now let's have some fun.
Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'
What is the flower and what is the gravestone?
Any takers?
:) |
I'll play...but I can't just do the single line 
My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic". The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships. He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire. Why a "metaphorical" flower? Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the subconscious world she inhabits in a dream state.
But wait! He's not willing to admit defeat. He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world. He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him. He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare. To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world. Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares. Indeed, she's played this scene before.
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progbethyname
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Posted: June 17 2013 at 21:28 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Ok. Now let's have some fun.
Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'
What is the flower and what is the gravestone?
Any takers?
:) |
I'll play...but I can't just do the single line My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic". The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships. He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire. Why a "metaphorical" flower? Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the </span>subconscious<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> world she inhabits in a dream state. </span> <span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.2;">But wait! He's not willing to admit defeat. He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world. He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him. He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare. To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world. Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares. Indeed, she's played this scene before.</span> |
Oh come on!!! Hey. That was brilliant. You did the whole freakin song 
You use the Incubus definition clearly to solve the big mistery between Fish and the wonder beauty.
You know its even been interpreted plainly.
The man (Fish) nursing an irrection with no flower to place before this gravestone.
The flower--her vagina
Gravestone--boner left unattended.
Big picture. The reality is no love or contact put before him to feel a sense of love or companionship.
It is isn't real cause the 'Incubus' literally is messing with his mind and distorting what's real and what's the dream land.
May I say. I much like your interpretation much better. Pretty weird, but that is what poetry does. It's ambiguities and usually never direct, which allows the flow of interpretation to happen amongst individuals. It breeds creative thought and group discussions which is why schools are so quick to use poetry as a lesson.
Anyway. Very good man. I think you nailed it.
Let's see who will be next. :)
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princessdua
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 02:04 |
Tubes wrote:
I am interested in seeing whether someone already has examined Gentle Giant lyrics as serious poetical writing. I am interested to see whether, if it has been done that is to say, they also don't see much in it, like myself. If someone has undertaken this already, I would like to see some people here at Progarchives look at it for themselves. It might just do away with this hero-worship thing that GG and their 'fans' seem be involved in. This is the reason for my interest in GG lyrics. For my own purposes, however, I am more interested BY the writing of Anderson, Gabrial, et alia. |
greatt..
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Tubes
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 02:43 |
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I always thought the gravestone and flower were allusions to the death of his spilt seed and his own mourning (self pity) about it. The message: Don't jack off. You're killing potential people.
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someone_else
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 08:35 |
someone_else wrote:
Tubes wrote:
Interesting. But I'm more specifically interested in the poetry of whom I see as the true giants of progressive rock: Yes (Jon Anderson, although Howe, Squire, etc. made significant contributions), Genesis (Gabriel, but also Rutherford, Banks, Hackett, etc.), Jethro Tull (Ian Anderson), Van Der Graaf Generator (Peter Hammill), and to a lesser extent King Crimson (Pete Sinfield, Richard Palmer-James), and to an even lesser extent (the highly over-rated) Gentle Giant. |
The highly over-rated Gentle Giant... I don't know if this indicates bad taste or a lack of understanding, not sacrilege anyway, though you seem to have angered some of their priests  .
Anyway, I just don't agree. I did not spend much time analyzing their lyrics, but their music is virtuoso.
What I find more intriguing is putting Jon Anderson in line with other giants of progressive rock as lyricists for crying out loud. Ian Anderson, Roger Waters, Pete Sinfield and Peter Gabriel have some qualities as lyricists (the latter having written the best lines ever about sex in the chorus of The Cinema Show), but Jon Anderson is another story: although he can be credited with a major share in the shaping of some of the most beautiful gems of prog rock, many of his lyrics can be qualified as crap. In the best case it is like the 2001 Christmas letter from my aunt in California: full of misspellings, so that many words had another meaning than originally intended, which cost me three days to decipher  . |
This excerpt looks familiar to me somehow. I think you posted it in the Guess Person Game when I let Tiresias pop up there. But...  ... I did not remember that Banks and Rutherford wrote these lyrics; I attributed them to PG because of his vivid imagination. These Charterhouse laddies knew their classics anyway.
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refugee
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 09:05 |
^I think you quoted the wrong post.  But apart from that, it’s true that I posted the same text about The Cinema Show in the Guess Person Game.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 14:35 |
progbethyname wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Ok. Now let's have some fun.
Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'
What is the flower and what is the gravestone?
Any takers?
:) |
I'll play...but I can't just do the single line My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic". The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships. He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire. Why a "metaphorical" flower? Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the </span>subconscious<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> world she inhabits in a dream state. </span> <span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.2;">But wait! He's not willing to admit defeat. He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world. He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him. He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare. To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world. Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares. Indeed, she's played this scene before.</span> |
Oh come on!!! Hey. That was brilliant. You did the whole freakin song
You use the Incubus definition clearly to solve the big mistery between Fish and the wonder beauty.
You know its even been interpreted plainly.
The man (Fish) nursing an irrection with no flower to place before this gravestone.
The flower--her vagina
Gravestone--boner left unattended.
Big picture. The reality is no love or contact put before him to feel a sense of love or companionship.
It is isn't real cause the 'Incubus' literally is messing with his mind and distorting what's real and what's the dream land.
May I say. I much like your interpretation much better. Pretty weird, but that is what poetry does. It's ambiguities and usually never direct, which allows the flow of interpretation to happen amongst individuals. It breeds creative thought and group discussions which is why schools are so quick to use poetry as a lesson.
Anyway. Very good man. I think you nailed it.
Let's see who will be next. :) |
Thanks for the kind words. I quite like your "flower v gravestone" interpretation also. As I was writing mine, I thought another approach could also work. Rather than being a "long distance" fan-object relationship, the incubus was originally also in the theater (perhaps as her first Producer) and they were actually a couple. As her career took off, his did not and he was forced to watch as she drifted farther and farther away finally leaving him alone only to surround herself with her new found sycophants...her "perimeter of courtiers". He was forced to exchange their actual physical relationship to one where the closest he could get would be as an incubus to his "unapproachable" nightly target 
Anyway, I think Fish was one of progs finest lyricists and the OP's wish to specifically exclude him from this discussion to focus only on the "true giants of progressive rock" a glaring omission.
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Tubes
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 17:51 |
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Musically, you can't even compare Marillion to Genesis. Marillion is, if I were to use the familial analogy, the half-retarded step-child of Genesis. The power of the music itself, is, in my experience, the best initial indicator of quality in the lyric. Classic Genesis beats Neo-Prog any day.
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KingCrInuYasha
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 18:21 |
Tubes wrote:
As a matter of fact, I'm only interested in an analysis of
Gentle Giant lyrics because I look forward to a revelation of just "how
absolutely awful," they ", really are." LOL |
If that's the case, why didn't you just make a topic titled "How bad are Gentle Giant's lyrics?" If you did that, I could at least take your interest a bit more seriously and have a couple of laughs at the band's (and possibly my) expense in the process.
Edited by KingCrInuYasha - June 18 2013 at 18:23
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: June 18 2013 at 18:31 |
Tubes wrote:
Musically, you can't even compare Marillion to Genesis. Marillion is, if I were to use the familial analogy, the half-retarded step-child of Genesis. The power of the music itself, is, in my experience, the best initial indicator of quality in the lyric. Classic Genesis beats Neo-Prog any day. |
Poetry exists rather or not there is tonal accompaniment so comparing Marillion and Genesis musically is irrelevant.
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progbethyname
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 03:03 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Ok. Now let's have some fun.
Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'
What is the flower and what is the gravestone?
Any takers?
:) |
I'll play...but I can't just do the single line My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic". The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships. He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire. Why a "metaphorical" flower? Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the </span>subconscious<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> world she inhabits in a dream state. </span> <span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.2;">But wait! He's not willing to admit defeat. He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world. He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him. He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare. To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world. Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares. Indeed, she's played this scene before.</span> |
Oh come on!!! Hey. That was brilliant. You did the whole freakin song
You use the Incubus definition clearly to solve the big mistery between Fish and the wonder beauty.
You know its even been interpreted plainly.
The man (Fish) nursing an irrection with no flower to place before this gravestone.
The flower--her vagina
Gravestone--boner left unattended.
Big picture. The reality is no love or contact put before him to feel a sense of love or companionship.
It is isn't real cause the 'Incubus' literally is messing with his mind and distorting what's real and what's the dream land.
May I say. I much like your interpretation much better. Pretty weird, but that is what poetry does. It's ambiguities and usually never direct, which allows the flow of interpretation to happen amongst individuals. It breeds creative thought and group discussions which is why schools are so quick to use poetry as a lesson.
Anyway. Very good man. I think you nailed it.
Let's see who will be next. :) |
Thanks for the kind words. I quite like your "flower v gravestone" interpretation also. As I was writing mine, I thought another approach could also work. Rather than being a "long distance" fan-object relationship, the incubus was originally also in the theater (perhaps as her first Producer) and they were actually a couple. As her career took off, his did not and he was forced to watch as she drifted farther and farther away finally leaving him alone only to surround herself with her new found sycophants...her "perimeter of courtiers". He was forced to exchange their actual physical relationship to one where the closest he could get would be as an incubus to his "unapproachable" nightly target Anyway, I think Fish was one of progs finest lyricists and the OP's wish to specifically exclude him from this discussion to focus only on the "true giants of progressive rock" a glaring omission. |
Omg. Incubus could very well be on par with Jigsaw for the tragic heart breaking scenarios.
Also. That is another fine interpretation. Really enjoy what you have to say here. I also of course totally agree about Fish being a master lyricist. Great stuff. Love it. Thank you for your insight. Oh the TRAGETY of rising actors. Fish is too good for her...dream or no dream. Lol. :)
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paganinio
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 07:05 |
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70s?
The most amazing one ain't from that period. (Comfortably Numb)
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dr wu23
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 09:33 |
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Not sure what qualifies as 'poetry' in prog lyrics but I have always enjoyed a good/clever lyric and for me it adds to the overall likability of the band's music.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 11:55 |
progbethyname wrote:
Omg. Incubus could very well be on par with Jigsaw for the tragic heart breaking scenarios.
Also. That is another fine interpretation. Really enjoy what you have to say here. I also of course totally agree about Fish being a master lyricist. Great stuff. Love it. Thank you for your insight. Oh the TRAGETY of rising actors. Fish is too good for her...dream or no dream. Lol. :) |
Thank you
I agree with you on Jigsaw: "Dream coins for the fountains, or to cover your eyes". I think poetically it's much more literal and direct than Incubus. It doesn't really tell a linear story that leaves much to interpret, but has Fish turning some great metaphors to describe the death of a relationship. Ya, Fish was the man.
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octopus-4
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 12:16 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Omg. Incubus could very well be on par with Jigsaw for the tragic heart breaking scenarios.
Also. That is another fine interpretation. Really enjoy what you have to say here. I also of course totally agree about Fish being a master lyricist. Great stuff. Love it. Thank you for your insight. Oh the TRAGETY of rising actors. Fish is too good for her...dream or no dream. Lol. :) |
Thank you
I agree with you on Jigsaw: "Dream coins for the fountains, or to cover your eyes". I think poetically it's much more literal and direct than Incubus. It doesn't really tell a linear story that leaves much to interpret, but has Fish turning some great metaphors to describe the death of a relationship. Ya, Fish was the man. |
Huddled in the safety of a pseudo-silk kimono wearing bracelets of smoke....It's a strong image, isn't it?
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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progbethyname
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 12:29 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Omg. Incubus could very well be on par with Jigsaw for the tragic heart breaking scenarios.
Also. That is another fine interpretation. Really enjoy what you have to say here. I also of course totally agree about Fish being a master lyricist. Great stuff. Love it. Thank you for your insight. Oh the TRAGETY of rising actors. Fish is too good for her...dream or no dream. Lol. :) |
Thank you I agree with you on <span style="line-height: 1.2;">Jigsaw: "Dream coins for the fountains, or to cover your eyes". I think poetically it's much more literal and direct than Incubus. It doesn't really tell a linear story that leaves much to interpret, but has Fish turning some great metaphors to describe the death of a relationship. Ya, Fish was the man.</span> |
Maybe one day I'll get to use the lyric ' staaaaaaaaaaaaaannnd straighhht! Look in me in the eyes and sayyyyy goodbye!'
So brilliant.
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: June 20 2013 at 13:09 |
progbethyname wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Omg. Incubus could very well be on par with Jigsaw for the tragic heart breaking scenarios.
Also. That is another fine interpretation. Really enjoy what you have to say here. I also of course totally agree about Fish being a master lyricist. Great stuff. Love it. Thank you for your insight. Oh the TRAGETY of rising actors. Fish is too good for her...dream or no dream. Lol. :) |
Thank you I agree with you on <span style="line-height: 1.2;">Jigsaw: "Dream coins for the fountains, or to cover your eyes". I think poetically it's much more literal and direct than Incubus. It doesn't really tell a linear story that leaves much to interpret, but has Fish turning some great metaphors to describe the death of a relationship. Ya, Fish was the man.</span> |
Maybe one day I'll get to use the lyric ' staaaaaaaaaaaaaannnd straighhht! Look in me in the eyes and sayyyyy goodbye!'
So brilliant. |
I'd say odds are everyone will get to say that line (or have it said to them) at least once in their life 
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