Poetry of Progressive Rock
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=94060
Printed Date: March 11 2025 at 11:57
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Topic: Poetry of Progressive Rock
Posted By: Tubes
Subject: Poetry of Progressive Rock
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 03:03
So... has anyone ever undertaken a serious, comprehensive study of the lyrics written by the poesy of early/70s progressive rock? If one or several people have, I would be appreciative of forum members providing links to said analysis or analyses! 
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Replies:
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 03:11
| Tubes, probably not really the same thing, but I recall a website years ago (no idea if it even exists anymore) that looked into every line of lyrics from the Fish-era Marillion pieces, offering interpretations, references, etc? |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 03:24
| Interesting. But I'm more specifically interested in the poetry of whom I see as the true giants of progressive rock: Yes (Jon Anderson, although Howe, Squire, etc. made significant contributions), Genesis (Gabriel, but also Rutherford, Banks, Hackett, etc.), Jethro Tull (Ian Anderson), Van Der Graaf Generator (Peter Hammill), and to a lesser extent King Crimson (Pete Sinfield, Richard Palmer-James), and to an even lesser extent (the highly over-rated) Gentle Giant. |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 03:28
| As a matter of fact, I'm only interested in an analysis of Gentle Giant lyrics because I look forward to a revelation of just "how absolutely awful," they ", really are." LOL |
Posted By: Kazza3
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 04:07
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I came across these a while ago, they may be of interest:
%20" rel="nofollow - http://alangullette.com/essays/music/tales.htm %20" rel="nofollow - http://alangullette.com/essays/lit/u_and_i.htm |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 04:08
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Yawn....
We get it, you don't like Gentle Giant...neither shocking, confronting or clever. And boring...really f**king boring.
If you weren't merely interested in `rocking the boat', getting some attention and causing an outraged reaction, I'm sure we'd be quite happy to hear your thoughts on that opinion. |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 04:52
| You are sure that the prog-community would be quite happy to hear my thoughts on what opinion, exactly? - That Gentle Giant's lyrics are poor? I've already touched on that in my review for Octopus - which was LAMBASTED. No offense to you yourself, but it seems to me that most members of this website who are familiar with Gentle Giant, are not interested at all in being shown, perhaps, that there isn't much to that band. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 06:21
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Let me put it this way: had you chosen to review one Gentle Giant album the way you've done, then I gather most people would be more welcoming. You then carried on writing the same review, only with different words, for more Gentle Giant albums, and if that wasn't enough, you start a thread in the forum seeking to highlight your first review. It's not that we, or at least I, don't appreciate different opinions - neither is it because of Gentle Giant being a holy artefact not to be messed with, but infinitely more to do with the overt narcissistic and quasi provocative manner in which all of this was conveyed in.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 06:31
| Listen: I never started a thread to highlight a review of mine - let alone my first review. That was started by others. Don't let the popular bias against me, get in the way of looking at facts. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 06:41
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What do you call this then? You disguised your intentions under the banner of "Poetry of Progressive Rock", but what you really want is for someone to respond to your anti Gentle Giant fetish. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 06:43
From the home page... http://adserver.adtechus.com/?adlink/5110/2044873/0/16/AdId=-3;BnId=0;itime=468647663;key=key1+key2+key3+key4;" rel="nofollow"> ____________________________________________________________________________________________ So with 8007 bands and artists are you still chopping our balls with Gentle Giant? Why don't you choose a different target and...not that I'm interested, but somtimes you may speak of something that you like. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 06:55
| I shouldn't have to remind you that that is your perception of my intentions, and not my actual intent itself. I seriously do want resources for anthologically analyzing early (or, you might say, GOOD) prog rock lyrics. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 06:56
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Tubes wrote:Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:13
|
Try this: In a quiet little beach walked a man and a woman and on them the vast shadow of a dilemma. The man was perhaps the most audacious more stupid and conqueror she had forgiven him, not without pain. The dilemma was to always a dilemma elementary whether their love had sense or not. In a house overlooking the sea lived a man and a woman and on them the vast shadow of a dilemma. The man is an animal quiet if he lives in his den the woman is not known whether misleading or divine. The dilemma is the balance of forces in the field because the love and the fight are the forms of our time. Their love died like that of all as something normal and recurring Because die and let die is an old custom that people is used to. He spoke almost always of hope and fear as the essence of his future image. And cultivated his desire and sought the truth she listened in silence, she probably had it already. He, too, curiously as everyone was born from a womb but unfortunately does not remember or does not know. On a spring day when she was not looking chased him the look of a new girl. And still we do not know if he was innocent as an animal or if he was dumbed down from vanity. But strangely she wondered if it were not the case once again to love and to remain faithful to her spouse. Their love died like that of all with the words that everyone knows by heart they knew how to cry and suffer but without blaming time or history. This desire not to let is difficult to judge if you do not know what is old or if it please. For moments of abandonment alternated between the hardships with great tenacity that is typical of old things. And this is the summary of this story for other unimportant you could just call resistance. Perhaps the memory of that May also taught him to fail in the sense of rigor, the cult of courage. And definitely refused our ideas of freedom in love they've been unable to adopt this choice I do not know whether to say in our choice or to this our new fate I only know that they gave their death. Their love died like that of all not an abstract thing such as family they chose death for the real thing like family. I would like to see clearer revisit their path the courageous battles that were won and lost. I would like to be able to penetrate in the mystery of a man and a woman in the immense labyrinth of that dilemma. Perhaps this act of desperation could also reveal as the sign of something that we are going to understand. Their love died like that of all as something normal and recurring why die and let die is an old custom People is used to. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:15
| I am interested in seeing whether someone already has examined Gentle Giant lyrics as serious poetical writing. I am interested to see whether, if it has been done that is to say, they also don't see much in it, like myself. If someone has undertaken this already, I would like to see some people here at Progarchives look at it for themselves. It might just do away with this hero-worship thing that GG and their 'fans' seem be involved in. This is the reason for my interest in GG lyrics. For my own purposes, however, I am more interested BY the writing of Anderson, Gabrial, et alia. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:18
WHADAYA MEAN GG OVERRATED? CELINE DION IS OVERRATED OK! ------------- |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:19
| Why on earth should that interest me, if I am, as I have stated clearly, MOST INTERESTED in early prog rock poetry? |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:21
| The view that both Gentle Giant and Celine Dion are over-rated is not characterized by conflicting opinions. What is your point? |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:23
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Hey, it's not poetry. It's a bunch of bloody stoned rock stars man writing sh*t, Not poet laureates at a tea party. Sometimes it's cool sh*t but I wouldn't call it poetry. ------------- |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:29
| Firstly, that's not an accurate way of looking at, to give an example, the lyrics written by Ian Anderson. He is strictly 'anti-drug'. Secondly, assuming 'poet laureates' are automatically gifted in the linguistic arts just because they've been granted such titles, is irresponsible thinking. |
Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:37
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It does not bother me one whit that GG lyrics are distinctly sub-par. The vast, vasty majority of prog lyrics are embarrassingly so. (Matter of fact, Im glad I do not understand Italian for this reason alone.)
However, you could have picked bands way more dire on the lyrics front than GG, but I suppose you areonly familiar with the cornerstone bands. (Thank God you have no familiarity with, for instance, the Dutch Sym-Info bands of the 90s.)
If lyrics are important to you, my advise is stay away from prog - and by staying away from prog, I really mean stay away from ALL vocal musics ,because if prog is bad, you can be sure the other genres are going to worse - at least prog can be literarily-inspired.
I never concentrate on lyrics (unless Im reading them on the backs of album covers). I treat the human voice as another instrument.
However ,when it comes to vocals in prog, what bothers me immensely more than poor lyrics is poorly-recorded vocals. How is it that the majority of vocals were recorded clear in the 70s but these new bands use shoite-engineers, or no engineers at all and go to all that trouble to make (usually) fantastic music, yet DESTROY EVERYTHING by having the vocalist buried in the mix. We should do a thread on cds that are totally ruined by this trait. I think it would be a real eye-opener. (I recently found out the first Il Trono De Ricordi lp is on the theme of William Blake. You wouldn't know it by struggling to make out the lyrics.)
So, the problem for Knobbers is not cheese-lyrics - I love cheese and I specifically collect cheese exploito psych - its clarity.
....
Oh and I should add about prog lyrics:
when I DO try to make them out, 9 times out of 10 I have no idea what general idea they are meaning to convey - nevermind clarity of production, prog lyrics (unless its a clear concept work, like Birthcontrol's "Backdoor Possibilities") also suffer from basic clarity/uniformity of meaning. It seems they are just dropping (poetic) images without any linkage of meaning. I find this very bothersome. Its as if they are doing a Dylan "Tarantula" on us - pulling the wool over our eyes. For this reason, I tend to skip with the lyrics altogether and just flow with the voice instead.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:49
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I agree half the time you can't even make out the lyrics so who cares. ------------- |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:49
The highly over-rated Gentle Giant... I don't know if this indicates bad taste or a lack of understanding, not sacrilege anyway, though you seem to have angered some of their priests  .
Anyway, I just don't agree. I did not spend much time analyzing their lyrics, but their music is virtuoso. What I find more intriguing is putting Jon Anderson in line with other giants of progressive rock as lyricists for crying out loud. Ian Anderson, Roger Waters, Pete Sinfield and Peter Gabriel have some qualities as lyricists (the latter having written the best lines ever about sex in the chorus of The Cinema Show), but Jon Anderson is another story: although he can be credited with a major share in the shaping of some of the most beautiful gems of prog rock, many of his lyrics can be qualified as crap. In the best case it is like the 2001 Christmas letter from my aunt in California: full of misspellings, so that many words had another meaning than originally intended, which cost me three days to decipher  .------------- 
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Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:29
| Well, Jon was well-intentioned enough. And calling them 'distinctly awkward' as if it were fact, is improper. That is only your own experience listening to them. |
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:37
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someone_else, the lyrics to The Cinema Show were written by Banks and Rutherford. Here’s an excerpt from a private mail from my brother (translated by me): I wonder if Banks and Rutherford have delivered what Harold Bloom calls a “strong misreading” of Eliot’s lines — actually the only kind of reading Bloom thinks is worth anything at all. They are less concerned with soulless sexuality than with an eternally valid erotic play that — as the reference to Romeo and Juliet suggests — very often ends in tragedy (West Side Story has probably some significance here as well). Moreover, in The Cinema Show Tiresias gets a much more vital and vitalizing role than in Eliot’s poem: In The Waste Land, to a strong degree he (she) connotes an erotic/sexual fatigue that’s just as present in both sexes; the song seems more like a feministic myth where the female principle is identified with Gaia. Thus, The Cinema Show can be understood in the same way as Hart Crane’s grand epic poem (or series of lyrical poems) The Bridge — that Crane himself viewed as a more optimistic version of The Waste Land.
Well, I’m not altogether sure that this is a valuable input to the discussion at ProgArchives. However, what it once again shows, is how well schooled or — in the best sense of the word — cultivated these boys in Genesis are, something they share with members of the other British prog- and artrock bands. So when I still from time to time see intellectual skeptics claim that rock lyrics exclusively contain formulas like “I love you”, I wonder what side of the moon they inhabit — it’s certainly not the dark side. They can’t be especially close to the edge either, and they have still not found out that the lamb lies down on Broadway (titles by King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator spring to my mind as well, but I’d better stop while the going is good). ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:42
Who cares if there's no poetry in GG's lyrics?  imagine they are singing in Kobaian and enjoy Kerry's Clavinet
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:54
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GG's lyrics can be humourous and cynical. I think there was some of that on Giant For a Day. ------------- |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:12
| Thank you refugee! Useful information for me there. And yes, I agree; some critics of progressive rock aren't exactly 'critical' enough sometimes, it seems. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:22
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I always believed Hammill was like Bob Dylan, a poet first, a musical artist second. Looking at his lyrics this would make sense. Dylan ia a visionary but not much of a singer. Hammill is also a visionary but thankfully can sing the fretboard off Dylan in every department. Poetry exists in prog no doubt but it is engaged in the thematic content. for me it is all about how the lyrics move me while listening to amazing musicianship. If the two line up, a masterpiece is often the result. But its not Shakespeare... ------------- 
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:29
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There is a ton of poetry in the form of flowery or dark macabre language in prog Rock for sure! Quite a fan of it as well.
Great examples of the flowery--YES examples of the Dark--Saviour Machine Examples of both flowery and macabre is Marillion (fish years) Fugazi is a poetic gem. ;) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:33
| For anyone interested, I should also like to mention that I currently have a thread about Ezra Pound's poetry in the General Polls section. |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:35
oh man Scott, when bob Dylan sings it's like a rusty nail being driven into my ear. He makes me wanna stick my finger in my eye-ball and swirl it around. Lol The worst part is I can't understand him. Here. This is brilliant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H26rfN5H8J0&feature=youtube_gdata_player ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:38
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I am a fan of poetry especially Coleridges Rime of Ancient Mariner, Brownings My Last Duchess, and Pam Ayres humorous poems such as Teeth. I used to teach poetry to High School, and we looked at a huge amount of styles. Most students wanted to look at the darker side of poetry, such as from Mudrooroo and Coleridge. He would be my favourite and Tennysonn, and Keats. We should all open our eyes and minds to a poetic world - it speaks to the innermost being.
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Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:43
I'm the same, Nick....Can't stomach him, and worse still I don't relate at all to his words. I remember someone once telling me `No, ignore his voice, listen to his words...', and I came back with something like `Yeah, but...kind of hard to ingore the voice when he's a SINGER, that's the whole point of what he's doing' lol!
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:47
With Dylan I admit his lyrics are incredible such as JokerMan - my fave, and his singing then was not too bad, but he has gotten worse, and a friend talked me into seeing him live.... worse $50 I ever spent for a concert. He said nothing, sung all his new songs nobody cared about, no classics were sung, no Blowing, Joker, Hurricane or Blues, just a wasted waste of waste. Back to poetry... Jokerman - THATS poetry! But the voice is like sandpaper scraping out grandpa's undies with a shredder.... yeah, its bad!  -------------
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:47
You got it buddy. It's tough to ignore. He should just recite it as in using a first person 'narrative' approach. Lol say it don't sing it bob!!! Hey....that should be the title for my new book. Lol ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:52
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I really want to clear by saying I don't like being overly critical or negitive towards musicians. I do understand the simplicity of bob's approach to his music. I just can't stomach it. Poetic or not, his voice is a deal breaker.
It's like a pair of testicals on a woman....just not cool. Lol ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:58
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Also. One last thing. Sammy Cool's Rime of the ancient mariner is one of my all time favourites.
I also especially like Iron Maiden's wonderful track adaptation of the poetic work itself. Well done Bruce!! ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:01
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:05
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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 12:22
Looks like an agenda to me. The OP of this thread ought to be more interesting than your actual intentions, in my opinion.
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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 12:23
I'm not usually big on Iron Maiden lyrics, but I concur. The Rime of the Ancient Mariner is fantastic.
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 12:30
Correct. Would you like it if somebody said to you: "Hey, that band you really like? They actually suck." |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 12:45
^this ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 13:28
Lol I love it when he says that before he belts out the live version on FLIGHT 666. Great live album. Iron Maiden still got it even after all these years. B.D sings just as well as he did 20 years ago. He is a true professional. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 13:30
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 14:20
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Hehe. Implying that lyrics are the most important part of prog. Thanks for the laugh OP!
 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:12
Go back to the beginning ... put on "Blonde on Blonde" ... forget the rest! Listen to the whole double album ... and by the time you hear ... she knows what she needs and I know what she wants (something like that) ... you will understand the cynical and sometimes totally satirical voicing of his. This is not about "love" ... this is about crap and bs! ... just alike here on this thread already! The words are well defined. If you want to hear these better, you can always put on Manfred Mann's Earth Band, Sandy Denny, Bryan Ferry, Jimi Hendrix ... and then realize ... these are nice words! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:22
Another factoid tying Jimi & Dylan. One of the innumerable Hendrix bio's tells the story of his first time in the studio after moving to Britain. He was super self-conscious about his voice and someone told him to listen to Bob Dylan...that if Dylan could sing on a record, Jimi surely could ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:23
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http://%20http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H26rfN5H8J0&feature=youtube_gdata_player" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H26rfN5H8J0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
K guys. Watch this! It's funny. Oh and Scott (ACR) sorry for the sh*tty link. Cut and paste is tiresome. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:35
What’s so funny with Server not found? But come on, you’re all off topic. Forget that he doesn’t like GG, he wanted to hear if there are any serious analysis of prog lyrics. As far as I can see, only my brother has contributed to that debate yet. ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:36
That's a cheap Motivation tactic.
I'm honestly considering that I'd rather listen to Barbara Strisand sing in the shower over Dylan. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:38
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Sometimes, I just want to ... get mad. Poetry is a LITERARY FORM that has history ... like THOUSANDS OF YEARS. For you and I to sit here and say that "lyrics" for rock music and specially "songs", are poetry, is a bit facile, silly, and also ... more than likely a bit uneducated, in terms of the history of the art form. From my point of view, a lot of "lyrics" will become the "new poetry", sometime about 100 years from now, but it is too difficult for almost all the posters in this thread to see a bit beyond their senility and drunken'ess ... not that I feel any different saying all this! ... that there could be something that one day will be called "poetry" and will be a part of that literary tradition ... you and I, have no idea, and will NEVER be able to make a proper distinction in our lifetimes ... but there is something that we can do ... create enough literary/essayist discussion about the lyrics of a piece or two ... but no ... the only thing that some folks can do is say GG is trash, and have no ability to break it down piece by piece as to why ... well, sheeeeeeepppp ddddiiiiipppp!!!! ... you know how many people were offended by "Our Lady of Flowers" ... and everyone upset that the French literatii were all excited that they got something over all the other intelectuals that were kissing T S Elliot's shorts? You got it ... same thing here! It was, the perfect ... number one ... ooopppsss ... finger! (just like Mad Magazine that one time!) I doubt that anyone here that is discussing FISH, PG and such, have ever read Peter Hammill away from the music, or Roy Harper away from the music, or Pete Sinfield away from the music to be able to make a decent evaluation of the written work that those folks created ... and that's a problem ... you will never read a Byron, a Shelley, a Shakespeare, a Milton, a Waldo, a Rabelais, a ... whoever ... but your "knowledge" of "lyrics" makes you qualified to discuss/compare it to "poetry"? Weird ... your TA or professor will give you a D- with the difference being that you at least spent a little time typing it ... we hope! Now you know, based on the posts in this thread, why so much of rock music is not taken seriously ... because we behave like idiots and do not have the ability, or desire, to show it as much better than it really is ... prog or not is not the issue ... your attitude is! Now, do me a small favor ... grow up and help make the music we love more important by discussing it correctly, not in terms of you like and you don't like! Thanks ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:44
She has the voice ... but she has no words! Sorry! I would think that if you said Mariah Carey you would be closer to it ... but what the heck! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 16:16
Hey great. You enjoyed the video. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 16:44
Nope ... I have read a lot of poetry and literature! And born in a house iwth 40k some books of Portuguese, Spanish and Brazilian literature ... I guess that I could not give a merde about most "lyrics"! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 16:53
I studied Romantic and Victorian literature in college, so I'm not aloof or obtuse when it comes to extensive poetry analyzation. Personally, I do not care too much for the lugubrious, bleeding heart and swan song attitude. I laugh it off really.....and it's exactly what I am doing now. Has nothing to do with education because I just choose to laugh. Life is more fun that way then being a weiling wall of a pussy. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 17:38
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The End. Epilogue: what's a swan song attitude? [red curtains closing] Now let's discuss prog literature/poetry.
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 17:55
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Goo goo ga joob ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:09
| No offense, intended to you yourself mokito, but you do ALMOST sound like a condescending elitist douchebag; 1 Corinthians 3:18: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:22
Ambiguities I know are plaging your mind. Swan song is an old expression to indicate someone's last orra' before death. It's just more wearing your heart on your sleeve flowery stuff. http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_song" rel="nofollow - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_song ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:30
Ok. Now let's have some fun.
Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.' What is the flower and what is the gravestone? Any takers? :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:32
| I know what swan song is. I've just never heard the term "swan song attitude" before. I could only assume what it means, which is still pretty ambiguous. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 19:58
I'll play...but I can't just do the single line  My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic". The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships. He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire. Why a "metaphorical" flower? Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the subconscious world she inhabits in a dream state. But wait! He's not willing to admit defeat. He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world. He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him. He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare. To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world. Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares. Indeed, she's played this scene before. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 21:28
Oh come on!!! Hey. That was brilliant. You did the whole freakin song 
You use the Incubus definition clearly to solve the big mistery between Fish and the wonder beauty. You know its even been interpreted plainly. The man (Fish) nursing an irrection with no flower to place before this gravestone. The flower--her vagina Gravestone--boner left unattended. Big picture. The reality is no love or contact put before him to feel a sense of love or companionship. It is isn't real cause the 'Incubus' literally is messing with his mind and distorting what's real and what's the dream land. May I say. I much like your interpretation much better. Pretty weird, but that is what poetry does. It's ambiguities and usually never direct, which allows the flow of interpretation to happen amongst individuals. It breeds creative thought and group discussions which is why schools are so quick to use poetry as a lesson. Anyway. Very good man. I think you nailed it. Let's see who will be next. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: princessdua
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 02:04
greatt.. |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 02:43
| I always thought the gravestone and flower were allusions to the death of his spilt seed and his own mourning (self pity) about it. The message: Don't jack off. You're killing potential people. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 08:35
This excerpt looks familiar to me somehow. I think you posted it in the Guess Person Game when I let Tiresias pop up there. But...  ... I did not remember that Banks and Rutherford wrote these lyrics; I attributed them to PG because of his vivid imagination. These Charterhouse laddies knew their classics anyway.-------------
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Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 09:05
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^I think you quoted the wrong post. But apart from that, it’s true that I posted the same text about The Cinema Show in the Guess Person Game.
------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 14:35
Thanks for the kind words. I quite like your "flower v gravestone" interpretation also. As I was writing mine, I thought another approach could also work. Rather than being a "long distance" fan-object relationship, the incubus was originally also in the theater (perhaps as her first Producer) and they were actually a couple. As her career took off, his did not and he was forced to watch as she drifted farther and farther away finally leaving him alone only to surround herself with her new found sycophants...her "perimeter of courtiers". He was forced to exchange their actual physical relationship to one where the closest he could get would be as an incubus to his "unapproachable" nightly target  Anyway, I think Fish was one of progs finest lyricists and the OP's wish to specifically exclude him from this discussion to focus only on the "true giants of progressive rock" a glaring omission. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Tubes
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 17:51
| Musically, you can't even compare Marillion to Genesis. Marillion is, if I were to use the familial analogy, the half-retarded step-child of Genesis. The power of the music itself, is, in my experience, the best initial indicator of quality in the lyric. Classic Genesis beats Neo-Prog any day. |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 18:21
If that's the case, why didn't you just make a topic titled "How bad are Gentle Giant's lyrics?" If you did that, I could at least take your interest a bit more seriously and have a couple of laughs at the band's (and possibly my) expense in the process. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 18:31
Poetry exists rather or not there is tonal accompaniment so comparing Marillion and Genesis musically is irrelevant. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 03:03
Omg. Incubus could very well be on par with Jigsaw for the tragic heart breaking scenarios. Also. That is another fine interpretation. Really enjoy what you have to say here. I also of course totally agree about Fish being a master lyricist. Great stuff. Love it. Thank you for your insight. Oh the TRAGETY of rising actors. Fish is too good for her...dream or no dream. Lol. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 07:05
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70s? The most amazing one ain't from that period. (Comfortably Numb) ------------- 
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 09:33
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Not sure what qualifies as 'poetry' in prog lyrics but I have always enjoyed a good/clever lyric and for me it adds to the overall likability of the band's music. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 11:55
Thank you I agree with you on Jigsaw: "Dream coins for the fountains, or to cover your eyes". I think poetically it's much more literal and direct than Incubus. It doesn't really tell a linear story that leaves much to interpret, but has Fish turning some great metaphors to describe the death of a relationship. Ya, Fish was the man. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 12:16
------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 12:29
Maybe one day I'll get to use the lyric ' staaaaaaaaaaaaaannnd straighhht! Look in me in the eyes and sayyyyy goodbye!' So brilliant. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 13:09
I'd say odds are everyone will get to say that line (or have it said to them) at least once in their life  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Larree
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 13:12
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Wow. Tubes is still bashing on Gentle Giant? Damn dude. What happened? They wouldn't let you blow them after a show? And speaking of Gentle Giant shows. I saw them a bunch of times and they were one of the best live bands I ever saw. But seriously, Tubes. It's okay if you don't like them. I think you have "funny ways."    Funny Ways by Gentle Giant I'm sorry to have been so much of a bore
But in my own funny way I find I learn much more. I realise what you think from your eyes, But in your own funny ways I find I learn much more. My ways are strange They'll never change They stay, strange ways I'm sorry to have been so close from the start, But for all that I cared we could be miles apart. I understood that you never would Understand a way of life that I never could. My ways are strange They'll never change They stay, strange ways Go your own way or wait for me Go your own way or wait for me Go your own way or wait for me Go your own way or wait for me And so you see what happened to me Since the time when I judged my life in nights and days I realised that my life was lies So you see what I mean with all my funny ways. I'm sorry to have been so much of a bore But in my own funny way I find I learn much more Funny ways, Funny ways, Funny ways, Funny ways. ------------- http://larree.ws" rel="nofollow - The Larree (dot) Website |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 13:24
Don't even get me started on Misplaced Childhood. There's enough wonderful poetry there to keep us analyzing for days. "So I reached for a bottle and he reached for the door, and I picked up the sleeping pills crushed in the floor. Inviting me to casual obscenity"  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 13:40
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Agalloch are blowing my mind these days.
The album. ASHES AGAINST THE GRAIN. Here are the opening lyrics... The texture of the soul is a vermillion flood From a wound carved from an oath; it fills the riverbank a sanguine fog These arms were ment to be lost! Hacked, severed and forgotten The texture of timevidvs whisper that echoes across the flood It's hymn resonates from tree to tree, though ever sullen bough it sings These boughs were said to be lost! Torn, Unearthed and broken Earth to flesh, flesh to wood, cast these LIMBS into water Flesh to wood, wood to stone, cast the stone into water.... Ok. Wow. This is heavy doom and gloom and such a bleak outlook on the nature of our souls. What do you guys think? Beautiful and brutal right? ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 20 2013 at 19:37
I like it, "Hacked, Severed and Forgotten" could have been the title of a Peter Hammill song. I was intrigued so I hit youtube and listened to the whole album. First time I've heard them...vaguely remind me of My Dying Bride's, "As the Flower Withers". Nice marriage of words and music...though without your translation I doubt I could have picked them out ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: mrtortoise
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 07:21
Wow, thanks for the links, interesting work!
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 07:31
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In the end Tubes has started something interesting. This sugests me a sentence from Fabrizio de Andre'
"nothing gets birth from diamonds, flowers get birth from manure"  ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 18:31
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Lot of great lyrics around but I have always loved Harper's poetry ..... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 18:34
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My all-time favorite lyricist is Toby Driver. Look up some of his work in Kayo Dot, it's mesmerizing. I've used excerpts of a handful of his songs as signatures here.
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 17:32
Interesting that the wisest of the fools would quote that and assume himself a bigger fool? Judging others ... make sure you can look in the mirror first ... and not throw up! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 17:36
I would think that it was more obvious that he is making a comment ... like ... what a waste of a good ___ that was! Like that has not happened with so many groupies hanging around! And Dean's following discussion ... is almost right there, too! We have this image that the lyrics ... are so saintly and clean and ... I think I will go throw up along with Roy Harper and Kevin Ayers!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 19:34
Incubus continues from where The Web finishes. For clues compare "You're all but forgotten, A mote in my heart" from The Web with " I've played this scene before, I the mote in your eye" from Incubus - they are thematically linked through photographs "Faded photos exposing pain"/"The darkroom unleashes imagination in pornographic images".
The Web was about a person not letting go after the end if a relationship, Incubus is the same person discovering compromising photographs from that relationship and realising the embarassment they could cause to the ex-girlfriend now. "With no flower to place before this gravestone" is merely an observation that there is no one mourning the death of that old relationship. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Second Life Syndrome
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 20:10
Oh, come on, dude. Name-calling, and then quote the Bible? Have you no grace at all? Stop giving Christianity a bad name through your relentless bombast of this forum. PLEASE! ------------- theprogmind.com |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 09:51
Yeah. I guess I should have warned people about the 'vocal' work and style on ASHES TO THE GRAIN. It's the best I know and clearly the musicianship is what I really enjoy most with Agalloch. I absolutely love the interplay with the acoustic and electric guitars. So brilliant!! Also. The grim, bleak nature of the album had me totally curious. Their are moments where HAUGHM has a softer vocal approach where is a little easier to digest and make out the lyrics! All in all. Agalloch are a great find for me and I bought 'the mantle' as well. Should be another poetic genius effort that will arrive in my mailbox next week. Anyway. Glad you liked it! ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 09:58
Also. Have you listened to Van Der Graf Generator's GoldBluff? To you have an appreciation in General For Hammil's song writing lIke say for, ARROW. ? Anyway how. Just curious. I want to explore more of VDGG's music. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:00
The continuation of THE WEB eh? Wow. Very interesting and the way you explain it sounds quite accurate. Thank for this. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:04
With the exception that you are saying that to a group of people that do not read poetry and do not know/understand that it has a history of thousands of years and is a literary concept ... and they do not know if the lyrics they like fit the mold or not, and worse ... many of them are not interested in finding out! So, what's left? ... the obvious comparison! Or as John Lennon would say ... working class heroes! There are MANY great poets in rock music. But, sadly, many of them are buried in a bunch of "lyrics" because no one knows/reads anything else, to get a better idea of what it is all about. And just like here, most can only quote the top ten, and they have no idea that they are mis-representing the word "poetry" grossly! All they are doing is making Stairway to Heaven and Mick Jagger sound like poetry! And they aren't! But that's not to say that they can not write very nice lyrics that stand up well, and folks remember them! One kinda has to learn to read these things away from the music ... the work stands up very well. Most pop music and even Genesis lyrics, do not stand up well to poetry, but they are very well written, and defined, to make it better ... there was an effort by Peter Gabriel to make this "better" than just a lyric! FISH is good, probably more clever than good, but not a "poet" per se. Fish is more of an actor with the words, than anything which helps the story telling side of things ... he knows how to act through these! Roy Harper and Peter Hammill in his solo works would be the bonafide true poets of progressive music, in the past 40/50 years. There are others, and it's hard to not consider Patti Smith and her style, either, but sadly, the majority of folks here are not interested in a serious discussion on poetry ... they can only discuss their "favorites"! ... and of course, compare it to Genesis! ... gotta have the token mention!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:33
Absolute bullsh*t on a stick....and despite the more obvious moments in the intitial recordings and debut album from Marillion, they completely moved away from that and made their own style very quickly. It's a lazy recycled ignorant opinion from someone who probably never bothered to actually listen to more than a few bits of their music.
Cool...Yes, Genesis is one of the legends for a reason, but thanks for completely dismissing an entire sub-genre of bands that have put out some amazing music too.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 12:02
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 12:04
Ya, you could say I've heard Godbluff...I bought the masterpiece in 1977  Seriously, your collection of lyrical poetry isn't complete until you've experienced at least the 1st 8 VDGG (up to 1977) as well as the 1st 11 PH solo albums (up to 1982). Hammill has also published 2 books of poetry/lyrics/stories, 1974's "Killers, Angels, Refugees" and 1982's "Mirrors, Dreams, Miracles" but good luck finding those as I believe they'be been out of print for 20+ years.------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 12:12
I found a clip of "Incubus" with Fish explaining his lyrical intention. He doesn't specifically mention "The Web" or the "flower and gravestone", but does tell an amusing story of an embarrassing photograph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk2soZPEFIs" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk2soZPEFIs ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |