The fathers of Prog Metal

My point is that bands like Iron Maiden were more important in shaping the sound of prog metal, actually metal as a whole from 80s onwards.  We haven't really had a 'new' metal sound since then, so it seems safe to say that the 80s sound is the quintessential metal sound.  Sabbath may have played a role but it was secondary.  Rush were more influential to prog metal than Sabbath but still less so than Maiden, I'd say, because without Maiden, it would be just heavy prog, not prog metal.  

Edited by rogerthat - May 01 2013 at 04:21

Ok, im not disagreeing to the importance of Iron M.

Edited by tamijo - May 01 2013 at 04:24

tamijo wrote: Dean wrote: ^ Vai was influenced by Holdsworth directly, not just through Satriani ... and don't forget the influence of Zappa. Oh yes, Zappa influenced a hole lot of people, and not only as a guitarist.

^ Certainly influenced a lot of metal bands, including Metallica, Dream Theatre and Iron Maiden (and Steve Vai )

rogerthat wrote: My point is that bands like Iron Maiden were more important in shaping the sound of prog metal, actually metal as a whole from 80s onwards.  We haven't really had a 'new' metal sound since then, so it seems safe to say that the 80s sound is the quintessential metal sound.

Is Jimi Hendrix even worth mentioning in this discussion?

HemispheresOfXanadu wrote: ^Completely forgot about him. I don't know if I'd really call him metal, but he had an influence on pretty well every guitarist back in the day and was undeniably proggy. Also, kinda surprised that this thread isn't about Sabbath, Jimi, Zep and Deep Purple. They all started around '68.

Isn't it about Sabbath?

Dean wrote: tamijo wrote: So what you are basicly saying is everyone out there got it wrong, and im right ! In that case you convinced me, that you are not going to change your mind, but you didnt convince me, that Black Sabbath was not Heavy Metal.     I'm saying that back then it wasn't called Heavy Metal it was called Heavy Rock - they weren't Stoner or Doom either. I don't need to convince you of anything. You can regard Sabbath as Metal now if you wish, but they weren't in the 60s and 70s, and neither were Rusheither.   People applying labels retrospectively doesn't change the music they played or the pigeonholing that was used before the new pigeonhole was created. Saying Black Sabbath was Heavy Metal in 1969 is revisionist, it's applying modern terminology to a time before the term existed. That's like calling The Nile Song a metal tune. If you must use modern terminology then they would be Proto-Metal but obviously no band in the history of music has ever formed with the intention of being Proto anything, we can only apply that pigeonhole retrospectively.

Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: I vote (other) for Dream Theater. So what is your definiton of "fathers" presactly? When I think paterfamilias I think of someone that holds the most water or that is a large acting force that ultimately makes a very big lasting impression. Dream Theater started in 1985 but didn't get known till around 1992 with the incredible IMAGES AND WORDS release. It seems that so many bands like to try and take examples of Dream Theater's music from 1992 and on. They are the most influential band in the genre easily. I can't count how many modern prog metal bands take after albums like their IMAGES AND WORDS and OCTAVARIUM album. It's insane. The genre is owned by Dream Theater in a lot of ways. Bold claim? Maybe, but I know they are huge front runners for prog metal. We cannot deny that. :) Well, in a word, No. To be fathers of a genre you need to have had influence on all those emergent bands when the genre was forming, and Dream Theatre doesn't fit that bill; and you also should have had some influence on those bands that are also at the forefront of the genre, and again Dream Theatre falls short. Where, I may ask, is the connection between Dream Theatre and [or influence of Dream Theatre on] Savatage, Queensrÿche, Fates Warning, Pain Of Salvation, Therion, Ayreon, Opeth etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum blah blah blah. Being influential on a few johnny-come-lately clones (and the number is not that big) is not the same as being the fathers of the genre. To do that you have to have broader influence, and while it is not an imperative, you really need to have been bigger (ie more popular) back then too to reach that broad spectrum of emergent bands. Possible candidates would be drawn from the Bay Area thrash scene or NWOBHM that gave rise not only to Prog Metal, but Power, Symphonic and Death Metal too. That's my theory anyway and it holds a lot more water than pinning everything on the shoulders of Dream Theatre if you ask me.   One thing that Dream Theatre does not do, is own the genre. You make some good points. I guess my feeling on the whole 'fatherhood' moniker with Dream Theater doesn't necessarily mean that they had to there (beginning stages of prog metal) to be the godfathers. I'm associating 'Fatherhood' with the meaning of a grand takeover. A new lasting impression if you will and Dream Theater have definitely done that. It started in 1992 and Sounds and structures from that album haven't rally left the prog metal genre. Metropolis pt 2 seems to be a major staple and soul example of what prog metal truly is and what it stands for. Even the 'Johnny come latelys' would agree. I believe Dream Theater have had a hand (influence) in all those bands you have listed even, especially AYREON. Dream Theater weren't the band that started it all, but they did come into the scene not that late and they are the most sought after paradigm that prog metal has to offer. Album sales have a little to do with that as well. 12milllion and counting. Might have a new album come out this year too! :) And it's still a resounding no. Your definition of fatherhood is shifting from adoptive step-father to wicked child-catcher, casting Dream Theatre as a Fagin-like figure gathering the waiflike orphaned clones to his lair to pick a prog pocket or two boys. If you really think they have influenced all those bands then please give examples, because from what I see the influence goes in the opposite dirtection for some of them and is non-existant for others - the way you describe it they were so damn influential they influenced the bands they supported and the bands they covered in those formative years. Ayreon's influences are well documented both in interviews and on the albums Luccassen records, DT doesn't figure that high when compared to the list of influences that they both share - if Ayreon and Dream Theatre have a list of mutual influences then any simularities are due to that overlap.You cannot pull a 1999 concept album up as prime example when several of the bands I listed had produced equally as ambitious concept albums many years prior to that that also could be regarded as setting a standard for others to follow - do you think Scenes From A Memory was produced in total isolation from them?   Sure, 12 million sales is impressive, but not outstandingly so over an 11 album 22 year career when compared to Queensrÿche's 20 million, and that pales when compared to Ironing Maiden or Metallicacaca who could shift that volume on a single album.

Wicked step child!! Very clever. I guess my feeling is that there is a slight mix up with terms we have used here to describe points of authority and titans of industry, which are of course GODFATHER and GRANDFATHER. The point is actually quite mute now due to my error and because of this mix up I do agree with a lot of what you said, but let's be clear on something, Dream Theater are allowed to sit at ' the big table' if you will, with the prog metal pioneers because they themselves are major pioneers with in prog metal. They elevated the genre to a new, heightened platform that still exists today. Actually, an album like SCENES OF A MEMORY is quite groundbreaking in some area's but not all together unique as you stated cause like you, I believe other paradigms and influences came into play in order for Dream theater to create such a masterpiece. Queensrÿche's Operation Mindcrime had a heavy hand in that.

Anyways broaching into the 'new Prog metal scene' Dream Theater are the big front runners for sound expression, especially for new prog bands. I don't think we can deny that. Therefore, this is a big reason why I list them as godfathers...not grandfathers :)

sure.