Since their first album was recorded just after the release of KC's debut, there weren't any other prog bands for them to harken back to.  Just sayin!

 

And who said anything about reaching this-or-that level of musicianship?  Sabbath had made all of their best albums before Rush made any albums at all, they weren't aiming to outdo them or anyone else.

 

from PA's front page, a moment ago:

They had a child (in a strange 4 way marriage) called Prog Metal

 

Ruch was the unknown cusin of Sabbath/Zep/Purple, he later grew up to become a bigger (hard) rock band, and made  some very important heavy prog albums, before the 80's dead arrow got him, but thats another story.

 

None of the other suggestions thus far are Metal.

 

 

However, wait for someone to suggest: Blue Cheer, Iron Butterfly, Steppenwolf, Atomic Rooster, Grand Funk Railroad, The Kinks, King Crimson, Budgie, Scorpions, Judas Priest, Uriah Heep...

Thinking to the prog metal in Ayreon's style (long concepts with contaminations from folk and pop) I'd say the Who, 

 

 

But the problem is, that its as impossible to define if a Hard rock band is metal, as it is to define, if a 70's band is prog. ; most sources define hard rock and metal as beeing basicly one same thing.

Zep Sabbath and so on, is to most a first wave.

 

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5142598_definition-heavy-metal-music.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.ehow.com/facts_5142598_definition-heavy-metal-music.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music

http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/liste_groupe-indexStyle-Heavy_Metal-l-en.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/liste_groupe-indexStyle-Heavy_Metal-l-en.html

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/history/" rel="nofollow - http://www.anus.com/metal/about/history/

ect. ect.

 

more about the subject here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music

 

 

 

Ah, the wikipedia article that introduces us to the seldom read phrase: "punk rock sensibility" ... what an oxymoron...

 

Never again will we see those three words used in the same sentence, even if Lemmy is involved.

 

But Nope. While the academic music historians can piddle around to their hearts content, and I do recognise the logic that for there to have been a New Wave Of British Heavy Metal that presuposes that there was an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal before it, this isn't strictly true. The New Wave of epiphet was adopted in deference to the "New Wave" phenominon that was sweeping through mainstream music at that time. What came before was Heavy Rock (which the 'mericans called Hard Rock) not Metal and it was never called Metal (even the seemingly apt named Heavy Metal Kids were a Heavy Rock band who took their name from a gang of street kids featured in a WIlliam S. Borroughs book and not from a musical genre).

 

The reason why people think "Heavy Metal" existed before then is by word-association - it is familiar to us because a whole bunch of elements on the periodic table are called Heavy Metals so the transition from Heavy Rock (Brit. Eng.) to Heavy Metal (Brit. Eng. and Amer. Eng.) more or less happened without asking.

So what is your definiton of "fathers" presactly?

One thing that Dream Theatre does not do, is own the genre.

Hmm, not sure, I would say that Judas Priest, Motorhead or Scorpions (while the latter not being British) were already Metal before NWOBHM. As with everything there is no clear dividing line, but they were closer to what would become regarded as Metal than previous Hard / Heavy Rock acts like Purple, Sabbath, Alice Cooper etc.

AC/DC belong more to Heavy Rock in my book but according to some they were also early Metal.

 

Sure, 12 million sales is impressive, but not outstandingly so over an 11 album 22 year career when compared to Queensrÿche's 20 million, and that pales when compared to Ironing Maiden or Metallicacaca who could shift that volume on a single album.

Looks like someone needs to swot-up in their Scorpions history

I was waiting for someone to mention that album.  The first progressive metal album.

Fates Warning was actually prog metal already and most likely influenced by IM.   It's a myth that Dream Theater 'created' prog metal with Images & Words.  That album is just the 'posterboy' of prog metal but there are a fair few prog metal bands and albums that pre-date it.  FW for one and Atheist's debut dating to 1988 had a completely different approach from anything DT ever made.  Metallica's And Justice for All would also qualify as prog metal and it evidently came to without any DT influence.  

And Justice for All was the last album from their classic era that I heard, and I love it.  I was surprised Metallica could sound so progressive.

But I'd say Iron Maiden.  They're much more a progressive band than Metallica.  Black Sabbath does have some progressive elements, but I'd say they're only slightly more progressive than Led Zeppelin, not quite prog.

So what you are basicly saying is everyone out there got it wrong, and im right !

In that case you convinced me, that you are not going to change your mind, but you didnt convince me, that Black Sabbath was not Heavy Metal.

 

 

I'm saying that back then it wasn't called Heavy Metal it was called Heavy Rock - they weren't Stoner or Doom either. I don't need to convince you of anything. You can regard Sabbath as Metal now if you wish, but they weren't in the 60s and 70s, and neither were Rusheither.

 

People applying labels retrospectively doesn't change the music they played or the pigeonholing that was used before the new pigeonhole was created. Saying Black Sabbath was Heavy Metal in 1969 is revisionist, it's applying modern terminology to a time before the term existed. That's like calling The Nile Song a metal tune. If you must use modern terminology then they would be Proto-Metal but obviously no band in the history of music has ever formed with the intention of being Proto anything, we can only apply that pigeonhole retrospectively.

rogerthat wrote: Try this:  Sabbath in the Ozzy years is heavy metal, but it's not Metal.  There's a huge difference between the Sabbath albums and Dehumanizer, which is in turn heavier than Heaven and Hell or the Rainbow albums, etc.   That is, there was some such thing as heavy metal in the 70s but that had about as much to do with prog metal as Elvis Priesley had to with Van Halen.  Black Sabbath's concerts often featured long blues-based jams, which is not nearly typical of prog metal at all.  Jazz-rock like Al Di Meola or Dixie Dregs had more to do with prog metal than Sabbath.     Speaking of Van Halen, Metal tends to deviate from blues while hard rock remains wedded to it, and is arguably just a very heavy form of blues.   You 'subtract' all the heaviness from Van Halen's songs like Panama or Girl Gone Bad and what remains is blues.  You can't say that about, say, Hallowed Be Thy Name, it's a different 'beast'.

Sure, i know how it sounds. I know prog metal is not blues based (thats why its labeled prog). What im saying is

Holdsworth & Zappa are Prog connections and influences, the others less so.

I'd say extreme metal is a completely new type of metal from what came before.

Also, kinda surprised that this thread isn't about Sabbath, Jimi, Zep and Deep Purple. They all started around '68.

Absolutely spot on. 

 

I would agree with that,.....and as several have already pointed out in this thread there is more than one band who influenced the prog metal style.

 

btw ..I voted for Rush. I listened to Sabbath from the very first lp while in college and I never saw them as progressive per se but more akin to heavy metal. At least that's how they seemed to me.

 

One could make a case for that..........

 

 

From PA's very own page pn prog Metal...   http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=19" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=19

 

"The Origins:
The heavy sound of some of the progressive rock bands of the 70's has been one of the building blocks on which progressive metal was raised. Progressive rock pioneers such as KING CRIMSON and RUSH have often been acclaimed as the main influences of progressive metal bands. The other major influence has been the NWOBHM (New Wave of British Heavy Metal) movement, and especially the twin-guitar arrangements of IRON MAIDEN, which have left their stamp on the early stages of the genre's development."

 

Interestingly...Sabbath isn't mentioned on that page.....just saying.

 

 

URIAH HEEP

No

Such BS!

 

Black Sabbath became one of the better known of these metal things, but there were already quite a few of them running around, in the Bay Area, LA, NY and London ... BS just had the name that was recognizable right away, and got everyone's funnel going!

 

It's like telling me that Quatermass was not better than BS's first albums ... and the first piece alone, was an example of some of the metal style that was already around. Even JRD paid a tribute to the one great piece in that album!

 

Spooky Tooth, was better and more interesting than the bullsh*t that BS sang about! LA and SF were littered with many of these bands that were hard and then some. Even good old Iggy and the Stooges makes BS just another cheap rock band! Budgie might also fit in this area. Heck, even the Edgar Broughton Band, was hard enough that no one in this PA here can enjoy any of their albums! Talk about jaded! And they had some serious political stuff in many pieces, while BS had topical material at best!

 

Rush, for my tastes, is the father of the "working class heroes" as John Lennon used to say! Cheaper music for the masses! And while I would not exactly criticize their musicianship, I question the validity of it all other than their fame ... !!!

 

Great hard rock band.....just saw them about a month ago in my local area. Only  2 original members left but they were still pretty good for old men.